The Alliance defeated Garrosh at the end of Mist.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Well, that's how it started.

The orcs not supporting her was the point if she tried using her Valks to rez the "True Horde" orcs. I mean, those are the orcs that already chose the side with Garrosh, they're just going to try to free him at that point from the factions, not "side with Sylvanas and help her fight the Alliance".

You have two possible situations

1) The orcs come back with their sanity in tact, and try to free Garrosh in a rage, because that's who they're loyal to, whether they're dead or not.

2) The orcs come back insane, and try to attack Sylvanas herself too.

Neither way is helping her.

I'm just finding it extremely confusing how the other poster is claiming that Sylvanas could faceroll them basically.

If Sylvanas tried to attacked them and get the jump, the Horde would not side with her.
If the Alliance tried attacking first, they'd already have their guard up and they're certainly not being facerolled by the Horde, nor would Sylvanas have had the jump on them.

It's hard to say in the situation which had the upper hand based on that, but...considering Vol'jin did listen, and considering the Alliance did a tremendous amount of work assault Orgrimmar also, I would say odds are they had the upper hand overall.

Well to be fair the valkyr can direct the recently resurrected induced rage, and influence who the newly raised attack.

Upper hand is always an iffy thing, especially in battles like this with multiple people and variables.

[Mumba]

The reason why Varian didn't "end the horde" was that he's not an idiot

First of all the risk of any Alliance leader dying is really high, actually it isn't even a guaranteed win.
Secondly, when the Horde races would find out about the death of their leaders they wouldn't just pick up their stuff and leave. Instead, they would retaliate at every possible Alliance camp/town/city they could and the casualties would be astronomical. Massive raids of bloodlusted orc/trolls/tauren and forsaken spreading plagues all over the place.

Varian knows that there must always be a horde, just like there must always be a Lich King.

[Stormspark]

Defecting from a faction means you are no longer part of that faction. The Alliance won the war and defeated the horde. And horde defectors helped on the side.

You won't get any horde fans to admit it though.

Garrosh is the one who defected. He defected from the Horde and formed the True Horde.

[MikeBogina]

Gameplay doesn't always equal lore. The quests themselves say that there is quite the chance of them being mindless.



Varian who took out Onyxia alone.
Jaina who's an extremely accomplished mage and commanded the Kirin Tor.
Genn, who did take on Sylvanas several times and she's never managed to kill him.
Tyrande, an accomplished archer and uh...priest hybrid?
And even if you want to write off Anduin, he's already shown himself to be a capable priest on several occasions, saving Varian's life even. And if you really think he's gonna sit there and let Sylvanas attempt to kill his dad, you're just being silly.

But really.
Sylvanas would take them all on somehow?

Also, mind you, I was just reminded of this myself. Even if the rezzed don't go insane, you think all the TRUE HORDE orcs are going to suddenly support...Sylvanas?

This isn't a "Sylvanas vs Alliance" discussion... Sylvanas counters Jaina, rest of the horde counters rest of the Alliance easily. Maybe you're stuck in the current WFA expansion, but the horde soldiers would follow Thrall, Volgin and the other leaders if the alliance was stupid enough to fight them. Many of them were loyal to the end.

But ill give you a good 1v5... Thrall kills all the alliance with the earth and lava around them. BAM!

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No doubt, but I highly doubt at that point even the rest of the Horde would have been fine with her attacking the Alliance after the Alliance just helped them out, and even was willing to negotiate peace. And even then, it's mostly because of her undead status, not because her actual strength as a fighter. If she was alive like the rest of them, we wouldn't be debating this, since no banshee powers, no valks.

I would think if she made any move, she'd find herself fighting both factions alone.

Where did this come from, you first spin a scenario of if the alliance decide to dismantle the horde and somehow you found yourself talking about Sylvanas for some reason attacking them.

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I guess I’ll have to re-read. I was under the impression that this was a “what if” if the Alliance tried to dismantle the Horde, which is why I was so confused on the orcs not supporting her sentence.

You did read it correctly, he changed the scenario from "Alliance attacking Horde" to "Sylvanas attempting to solo Alliance"

[StationaryHawk]

I can't believe threads like this exist. Do people really get so wrapped up in the story that they have to justify their head canon for the purpose of sticking it to the opposite faction?

[Amerrol]

So many ignorant Horde fanboys. I guess if you play a savage faction it slowly starts to lower your IQ.

[Felixon]

Just wait until the Chronicle 3rd volume release...It will provide answers to many questions,starting with - which faction actually killed Onyxia etc.

[Jester Joe]

This isn't a "Sylvanas vs Alliance" discussion... Sylvanas counters Jaina, rest of the horde counters rest of the Alliance easily. Maybe you're stuck in the current WFA expansion, but the horde soldiers would follow Thrall, Volgin and the other leaders if the alliance was stupid enough to fight them. Many of them were loyal to the end.

But ill give you a good 1v5... Thrall kills all the alliance with the earth and lava around them. BAM!

Not even close to true. And I'm not going to bother continue to discuss this if you truly think that the Horde would have facestomped them there, because you're just being horribly bias at that point. It would have been a close fight, but the Alliance was the only one with an actual army that could hold Orgrimmar in that case, while having a platoon right in the same chambers. Skyfire flying around Orgrimmar which has no aerial defense because we took it out to help retake Orgrimmar.

And yet again, no, you were talking about rezzing the dead. The dead was mostly the True Horde. None of them were loyal to the Horde.

Where did this come from, you first spin a scenario of if the alliance decide to dismantle the horde and somehow you found yourself talking about Sylvanas for some reason attacking them.

You did read it correctly, he changed the scenario from "Alliance attacking Horde" to "Sylvanas attempting to solo Alliance"

You're the one who claimed that Sylvanas would destroy Jaina, and then steamroll the rest. That was on you, not me.

[Rhymor]

For those of you saying that The Horde isn't the Warchief - I'm sorry, but you're wrong. The entire point of The Horde is the Blood Oath. You don't swear the Blood Oath to the Horde, you swear the Blood Oath to the Warchief. Because of this, you had to willingly do so to Thrall, you had to willingly do so to Garrosh, you had to willingly do so to Vol'jin, and all of you that love to hate Sylvanas had to do so to Sylvanas.

The Warchief is the Horde. That is the primary difference between the Alliance and the Horde. The Horde has a single head at the top. The Warchief can literally walk into your home and tell you to change your culture, as Thrall did with the Darkspear Trolls. That is literally the entire point of the Warchief. That is literally the entire point of getting rid of the orcish "aristocracy" and chieftains.

"I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command."

The Warchief controls the Horde. The Warchief is the Horde. I don't even play the faction anymore, but that's one of the most integral pieces of their identity.

[Deleted]

Oh please... the champions in lore are irrelevant.

How you gonna count them? Theres horde and Alliance ones.

This is simple. The champions are like they don't exist. The alliance raided the city and had more forces. Varian had a squadron of Alliance soldiers with him. The horde was in disarray and the trolls had been slaughtered.

Yes, he could have ended it there. But, player factions can't be deleted and thus the war must eternally go on.

[Cucultlan]

let see at the moment of the ending cinematic there are 2-3 horde grunts (tauren), almost every horde leader and garrosh on the ground; and on the alliance side there is only varian, jaina and like 8-10 alliance foot soldiers.

if you really think they can say "ok the horde is dismantle and if you dont agree you can die here with it" and leave the room alive, you are so wrong... there were going to be death before they can run to ask for help unless jaina teleports out to call for reinforcements and then run or teleport back

[Zulkhan]

For those of you saying that The Horde isn't the Warchief - I'm sorry, but you're wrong. The entire point of The Horde is the Blood Oath. You don't swear the Blood Oath to the Horde, you swear the Blood Oath to the Warchief. Because of this, you had to willingly do so to Thrall, you had to willingly do so to Garrosh, you had to willingly do so to Vol'jin, and all of you that love to hate Sylvanas had to do so to Sylvanas.

The Warchief is the Horde. That is the primary difference between the Alliance and the Horde. The Horde has a single head at the top. The Warchief can literally walk into your home and tell you to change your culture, as Thrall did with the Darkspear Trolls. That is literally the entire point of the Warchief. That is literally the entire point of getting rid of the orcish "aristocracy" and chieftains.

"I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command."

The Warchief controls the Horde. The Warchief is the Horde. I don't even play the faction anymore, but that's one of the most integral pieces of their identity.

And unfortunately you're bloody wrong. Tides of War made pretty clear how Garrosh's conception of "I am the Horde" was misguided and twisted. Lor'themar himself pointed that out. And the Blood Oath means nothing. It's the Oath itself drawing a clear distinction between the Warchief and the Horde. Swearing loyalty to the Warchief does not make him the embodiment of the faction itself.

Be it the individual subjects or the Warchief itself, all of them are obliged to serve the Horde as a whole and its interests. The Warchief is simply the tool meant to guide all the other tools.

[MikeBogina]

Not even close to true. And I'm not going to bother continue to discuss this if you truly think that the Horde would have facestomped them there, because you're just being horribly bias at that point. It would have been a close fight, but the Alliance was the only one with an actual army that could hold Orgrimmar in that case, while having a platoon right in the same chambers. Skyfire flying around Orgrimmar which has no aerial defense because we took it out to help retake Orgrimmar.

1. I don't know what you mean by only one with an army to hold the city... this city was liberated...
2. Horde has a "platoon" in the same room aswell, as being surrounded by tons of horde weaponry, EARTH and LAVA(again shaman guy)
3. Yes, you get it... the alliance helped retake Orgrimmar

And yet again, no, you were talking about rezzing the dead. The dead was mostly the True Horde. None of them were loyal to the Horde.

I know you probably don't understand horde society, most alliance players are ignorant on the matter but many of the soldiers you face swear an oath of loyalty to follow the warchief no matter what. There's even a boss that represents this like crazy called Nazgrim(coincidentally he's ressed later on). Many if not most of the Orcs who surrender or captured would most likely join the Horde in fighting the Alliance.

You're the one who claimed that Sylvanas would destroy Jaina, and then steamroll the rest. That was on you, not me.

You must have forgotten the whole setup to this scenario being the Alliance attacking the horde in this room. If this were to occur, like I said Sylvanas' Val'kyr would just fly around ressing dead, Jaina would counter Jaina and the rest would get rolled over by the rest of the Horde. You keep trying to spin this narrative but that's the narrative I'm arguing.

You can stop this back n forth if you want, just don't accuse of bias when you keep changing the narrative in ridiculous ways to benefit you. It comes down to the Horde has 2 characters here who are surrounded by things they can use greatly to their advantage. If this scenario took place in a forest with Malfurion, I wouldn't even doubt the Alliance victory, but this isn't that setting.

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And unfortunately you're bloody wrong. Tides of War made pretty clear how Garrosh's conception of "I am the Horde" was misguided and twisted. Lor'themar himself pointed that out. And the Blood Oath means nothing. It's the Oath itself drawing a clear distinction between the Warchief and the Horde. Swearing loyalty to the Warchief does not make him the embodiment of the faction itself.

Be it the individual subjects or the Warchief itself, all of them are obliged to serve the Horde as a whole and its interests. The Warchief is simply the tool meant to guide all the other tools.

Sylvanas must not have gotten the memo, all of the new allied races seem to be getting a similar swearing of loyalty that seems vaguely familiar to Garrosh's

[Zulkhan]

Sylvanas must not have gotten the memo, all of the new allied races seem to be getting a similar swearing of loyalty that seems vaguely familiar to Garrosh's

I don't know about that. Surely Garrosh never said things like "the Horde will offer its protection in exchange of your obedience". Sylvanas doesn't seem to be ignorant about the most basic truths of all: to get something you have to give something. All Garrosh offered were the dreams in his head shared through his hollow inspirational speeches and was that much deluded to believe anyone but his retarded boot-lickers gave two shits about that.

[caervek]

Sylvanas is here, which means that her Val'kyr are more than likely present and ready to revive any Horde who fall in battle, as well as animate fallen soldiers.
Thrall, Baine, and Vol'jin are deadly warriors who can call upon spiritual powers to aid them.
and fifty orc grunts

VS

Varian, who's on even footing with Lor'Themar as the elite warrior
Jaina, who's just one wizard
and fifty Alliance warriors

You're looking at it from the wrong perspective, a good comparison is the final days of WW2 when the allied forces had taken Berlin. Germany was defeated, it's capital had fallen, it didn't particularly matter if their leader surrendered or not it was just a formality at that point. This was exactly the same however instead of surrender Varian demanded a truce.

[Combatbutler]

You're looking at it from the wrong perspective, a good comparison is the final days of WW2 when the allied forces had taken Berlin. Germany was defeated, it's capital had fallen, it didn't particularly matter if their leader surrendered or not it was just a formality at that point. This was exactly the same however instead of surrender Varian demanded a truce.

It wasn't the same, it would have been the same if a vast german rebel army had helped them take the city, currently held much of the city and still had significant numbers to fight them. Varian wasn't in a position to dictate anything, could the the Alliance win, most likely but it would have been costly and most likely taken a few more years.

[Zulkhan]

It wasn't the same, it would have been the same if a vast german rebel army had helped them take the city, currently held much of the city and still had significant numbers to fight them. Varian wasn't in a position to dictate anything, could the the Alliance win, most likely but it would have been costly and most likely taken a few more years.

Yeah, it's not like the Allies had a German rebel army fighting alongside them and matching them in numbers. But that was pretty much the situation in SoO. The main reason this didn't happen in Germany (it did to an extent in Italy but still the USA played a pivotal role) was the Horde is not a nation but an organization of several nations; no doubt an Orc rebellion alone wouldn't have matched the Kor'kron nor the Alliance army, but Garrosh's utter lack of followers among the rest of the Horde's races sealed his fate and built a strong enough presence to rival the Alliance's.

[Jester Joe]

I know you probably don't understand horde society, most alliance players are ignorant on the matter but many of the soldiers you face swear an oath of loyalty to follow the warchief no matter what. There's even a boss that represents this like crazy called Nazgrim(coincidentally he's ressed later on). Many if not most of the Orcs who surrender or captured would most likely join the Horde in fighting the Alliance.

This alone shows how faulty your argument is.

The orcs who were in Orgrimmar were the ones who swore loyalty to Garrosh.
They're the ones who, if they escaped, followed Garrosh after he came back in WoD too.

Nazgrim is the exception to the rule, because he was too loyal to a fault. He knew what he was doing was wrong, and this can even been seen if you complete the Gamon achievement for SoO, where he specifically says he leaves the future of the Horde to Gamon.

If you raised any of those orcs (who HAD the chance to side with the Horde and instead chose the True Horde), they're going to try to free Garrosh.

Also, PS, I never said I was an Alliance player.

[Deleted]

We could take that most of them very really worn out after the battle against Garrosh because lots of iron stars, Kor'kron elite during combat, power and creatures from heart of y'sharaaj. When you take account that they little bit earlier had to defeat the paragons of the klaxxi so in lore stand point it still could be either side. Fighting that long takes a huge toll on your body and could easily leave you very worn out and weak.

Extremely worn out fighter are less than useless in war only thing they are good as is cannon fodder or meatshields.

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Thralls elemental powers where gone at that point because torment they had and the attacks garrosh inflicted on him, also Thrall is weaker warrior than Garrosh and Garrosh couldn't overpower Varian. saying Val'kyrs where there is huge speculation we have zero knowledge also resurrecting strong people causes them to die. sylvanas has four major val'kyrs remaining and resurecting a leader probably would take atleast three of them like in Silverpine. Also Velen could probably purify undeaths Val'kyr revived and cause them to die.

Jaina has staff that has power of the thunder king and is said one of strongest sorceresses ever. Varian could easily defeat Lor'themar(who is mainly an elven ranger not an warrior) with power of Goldrin and his legendary weapons. Also Alliance had Tyrande the favorite child of Elune who held of legions of demons in the war of the ancients. Also they have Vereesa who is atleast skilled ranger as Lor'themar. Also Anduin ressurected his father once before and his was there.

Also those Grunts horde(all elites where part of Kor'kron) had weren't even the elite unlike alliance probably had the elite footsoldiers

So in short strongest of the horde member there was next useless. Alliance had wastly more powerful individuals there. The heroes where battered and worn out and next useless lore-wise at that point.

its thrall voljin baine sylvanas gallywixx lothemar thrall vs jaina tyrande varian moira

so the horde would win
lorthemar is described as a war/ranger hybrid and the most skilled spellbreaker in history and looking in lore a adept high elf/blood elf mage is far more skilled than an expert dalaran mage so no jaina is nothing
sylvanas after wotlk is pretty much op looking in lore she is almost as powerful as the lich king was before wotlk boosted his power
baine is stated to be as strong as his farther who was on pair with grom hellscream who was way more powerful than varian who died to guldan who is weaker than mannoroth which grom defeated so again horde wins
and then there is tyrande which is the most powerful alliance who where there she would be facing 6 v1

in every scenario where lore is taking in consideration alliance would loose
this is not my opinion but its facts

[gerlach1025]

It was a combined effort and if you did the Horde storyline you would realize that there was a lot of effort done by Vol'Jin to get the rebellion going. By the end of the raid though the Alliance was in a prime position to completely screw over the horde if they had wanted to since they had so many forces in Orgrimmar.