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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    In the US you will die in the gutter even as a original citizen if you do not support yourself by working. This is not the case in Europe. Especially here in Finland you have to be actively trying to fuck up your life, and even then it is nearly impossible, to be so flat out broke and with your life in tatters that you go homeless.
    Source? Last time I checked US was 2nd best on planet in "Food Security", much MUCH better than most of Europe really. Even Finland

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Macaquerie View Post
    If asking prosperous Europeans to try and take care of a couple million refugees is such an intolerable demand, how exactly do you expect the refugees to be able to do what you're asking of them?
    I'm not sure I understand the premise of your question.

    Why should Europeans take any refugees at all? Why is a war in a third world country the responsibility of anyone outside that country? A governments job is to improve the lives and safety of it's citizens. If asking people to immigrate to your country because the government believes they will improve the lives of their citizens without compromising safety then great.

    But if governments want to import people who will drain resources, lower the quality of their citizens or endanger them then those governments have failed the very people they are supposed to serve. The question people should be asking is: why does your government want to import poor people?

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokresh View Post
    Well I am not doing that, there are a lot of poor people in our country that have fallen on hard times for understandable reasons and are let down by our goverment not helping them, the last thing we need is more people to help. Again it doesn't matter how much better you think the poor people in the west have it, a lot of people still have more concern for them then they do the people coming from literal hellholes. Because refugees will die if they don't come here and get a free home we should let more of ours live on the streets? We've had people literally freezing to death in doorways. We've got people left in ambulances in hospital carparks due to a lack of room, we have schools full to the brim, we have so many disabled people being cut from benefits for reasons proven to be false later and killing themselves, we do not need more problems it sucks for them it really does but it's not our responsbility to make more of our own suffer for them.
    Maybe it's different in the UK, but in the US the reason for a lot of the kinds of problems you mentioned is because politicians keep waving the issue of immigration to distract voters, focusing all their hatred on immigrants and leaving the politicians and their corporate overlords to rob them all blind when they're not looking. The more easily you can dismiss a migrant's condition as not being your problem, the more easily you'd be able to do the same to the homeless people lining the streets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    The question people should be asking is: why does your government want to import poor people?
    Because poor people tend to be much harder working and better at dealing with adversity, most of them just need a chance to prove themselves. Many native born citizens, on the other hand, tend to be rather spoiled and entitled and have blown enough chances already, sheltering them even more from competition won't exactly get any results.
    Last edited by Macaquerie; 2018-01-22 at 08:30 AM.

  4. #204
    Hmmm let’s see. In Sweden an economic “refugee” who’s granted residency is entitled to max €30 per day 5 days a week (€30 is for those attending Swedish classes and other integration stuff full time. It goes down depending on your attendance). If they have children under 20 they’re entitled to extra benefit which is €80 per month for children over 11 and €150 for children under 11 for a maximum of three children. They’re also given access to the social welfare system which means they can claim child benefit which goes up to €130 per child from March. Child benefit also has a component where the more children you have entitles you to some extra money. If we use the example of a family of five, three children would entitle you to an extra €73 a month. They can claim housing benefit as well.

    Let’s imagine it’s a family of five. You do the math.....And I haven’t even got into free healthcare.
    Last edited by Gully Man; 2018-01-22 at 08:39 AM.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macaquerie View Post
    Maybe it's different in the UK, but in the US the reason for a lot of the kinds of problems you mentioned is because politicians keep waving the issue of immigration to distract voters, focusing all their hatred on immigrants and leaving the politicians and their corporate overlords to rob them all blind when they're not looking. The more easily you can dismiss a migrant's condition as not being your problem, the more easily you'd be able to do the same to the homeless people lining the streets.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/...-your-hospital

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7111501.html

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38506305

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6867726.html

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/he...-a8057306.html
    obviously a lot of this is linked to our awful goverment but considering they don't protect their people as it is I don't want more people here taking up resources (not talking purely finanical) leading to more deaths for our own people that is my only feeling on the matter.
    Lok'tar Ogar! Death to the Alliance filth in the name of the Horde!

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    I'm not sure I understand the premise of your question.

    Why should Europeans take any refugees at all? Why is a war in a third world country the responsibility of anyone outside that country? A governments job is to improve the lives and safety of it's citizens. If asking people to immigrate to your country because the government believes they will improve the lives of their citizens without compromising safety then great.

    But if governments want to import people who will drain resources, lower the quality of their citizens or endanger them then those governments have failed the very people they are supposed to serve. The question people should be asking is: why does your government want to import poor people?
    Espcially when we have PLENTY of our own poor people, its demonised beyond belief by people to want to take care of your own first but it's human nature I care more about my own (Tribe for lack of a better term, the people of the United Kingdom) then other countries.
    Lok'tar Ogar! Death to the Alliance filth in the name of the Horde!

  7. #207
    Deleted
    No one hates refugees. Let me explain it for you:
    There is winter outside, its snowing. Imagine a middle class, not poor / not rich family. There is a homeless on the streets. One day the family adopts this homeless person. He can live in the garage, he gets free food etc, while waiting for the spring. Day by day the homeless wants more, he want to sleep in the children's room, he wants to eat at a restaurant. Your rich neighbour says you must take your homeless to the restaurant each day, he pays for it, but you have to take him. The rich neighbour sends his homeless people to your home. Now you have 3 homeless people in your house, your 3 homeless people wants their family too in your home, they choose what you eat, they sleep in your bed, while you can rest on the floor.
    Middle class family : middle / east europe
    Rich family : germany
    homeless: imigrant
    Do you get it now?

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Macaquerie View Post
    My question is this though - what country out there has the capacity to absorb a large number of refugees without disrupting the economy? These people have to go somewhere, and if modern and wealthy Western countries aren't able to shoulder the burden, should we really expect places like Saudi Arabia and Turkey to? I get that we are all NIMBYs on some level, but let's not pretend like Europe is uniquely incapable of absorbing mass migration.
    The target of 1st world countries should be natural population REDUCTION (with the already low birth rates) to prepare for future automation, and the reduction in jobs it will bring

  9. #209
    Deleted
    The only way the welfare state can remain is if there are enough strong shoulders to carry the weak. If you have two many weak (aka import to many weak) the system can't last.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Macaquerie View Post
    Because poor people tend to be much harder working and better at dealing with adversity, most of them just need a chance to prove themselves. Many native born citizens, on the other hand, tend to be rather spoiled and entitled and have blown enough chances already, sheltering them even more from competition won't exactly get any results.
    Yeah sorry that's bullshit. Poor people require enormous amounts of resources to embed into a society, unless you are just planning to let them roam the streets. Until such time as they can be trained and speak the native language they will be useless to the workforce. Where the fuck does this claim that they work harder come from? I hear it a lot and I'd like to know what measurements are used. Do you currently work? Are you going to sit there and tell me poor people work harder than you?

    There is no upside for importing poor people, period. The only ones who benefit are left wing governments because poor people always vote left. That's why the Democrats are impoverishing LA and chasing out the middle class, because they know the poor illegal immigrants will always vote for them. The rich don't care, they just make their walls higher around their mansions.

  11. #211
    A refugee comes over and takes my job. Instead of blaming my self, I'd much rather blame the strange looking outsider.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Owlmygod View Post
    No one hates refugees. Let me explain it for you:
    There is winter outside, its snowing. Imagine a middle class, not poor / not rich family. There is a homeless on the streets. One day the family adopts this homeless person. He can live in the garage, he gets free food etc, while waiting for the spring. Day by day the homeless wants more, he want to sleep in the children's room, he wants to eat at a restaurant. Your rich neighbour says you must take your homeless to the restaurant each day, he pays for it, but you have to take him. The rich neighbour sends his homeless people to your home. Now you have 3 homeless people in your house, your 3 homeless people wants their family too in your home, they choose what you eat, they sleep in your bed, while you can rest on the floor.
    Middle class family : middle / east europe
    Rich family : germany
    homeless: imigrant
    Do you get it now?
    Yes OP, did you get it?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Darkener View Post
    If you've never worked with Orthodox Jews then you have no idea how dirty they are. Yes, they are very dirty and I don't mean just hygiene
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    most of the rioters were racist black people with a personal hatred for white people, and it was those bigots who were in fact the primary force engaged in the anarchistic and lawless behavior in Charlottesville.

  12. #212
    I guess it's mainly lazy people that are afraid of competition.
    If you think you risk losing your job to an uneducated immigrant then you might have to work harder or you're just not worth that much on the job market to begin with.

    Still though, stick to the laws and don't enter illegally. Breaking laws makes you a criminal, no matter what reasons you have.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Yeah sorry that's bullshit. Poor people require enormous amounts of resources to embed into a society, unless you are just planning to let them roam the streets. Until such time as they can be trained and speak the native language they will be useless to the workforce. Where the fuck does this claim that they work harder come from? I hear it a lot and I'd like to know what measurements are used. Do you currently work? Are you going to sit there and tell me poor people work harder than you?
    This is not like some painful admission that I'm making here, of course poor people work harder than I do. Now I can get by pretty well because my education and training makes me a lot more efficient and productive than they are, but I certainly wouldn't touch half the jobs that third world immigrants are forced to do on a regular basis.

  14. #214
    Deleted
    Its not about losing a job, gypsies had 1000 years to integrate in the society. They did not. They speak the same language, same religion etc.
    Suddenly, economic migrants will learn the language in 1 week, will not pray for aloha every 4 hours for 1 hour, will not demand seperate office, restaurant for women and man. Your tax money will not be used to educate, feed them and their 3 wives and 30 children for 10 or more years, because they will work.

  15. #215
    Deleted
    This whole thread is like reading the first economics essay written by a 1st year undergrad. Terrible.

    TLDR: Short term pain, long-term gain

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Macaquerie View Post
    This is not like some painful admission that I'm making here, of course poor people work harder than I do. Now I can get by pretty well because my education and training makes me a lot more efficient and productive than they are, but I certainly wouldn't touch half the jobs that third world immigrants are forced to do on a regular basis.
    You are conflating manual labour with hard work. My work requires me to do tasks on a computer for long periods. At the end of the day I'm mentally fatigued, I've pretty much only got the energy to stare blankly at the tv for an hour before going to sleep. Are you telling me a poor person sweeping the streets is working harder than me? And what if someone wanted that street sweeper job? He now has to compete with a poor refugee.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deruyter View Post
    In Europe, the integration of immigrants and refugees completely failed. And with completely, I really mean completely.

    Can we just come to the conclusion that yes, we have tried over a period of many decades to make it work and that it's just not doable when people, cultures and religions simply aren't compatible?

    Simple facts: we tried, it didn't work, it will never work.
    Because it takes generations and not decades. When your attitude has its counterpart on the opposite side it'll make it take centuries instead. It's just people in the end and the fact that you think two groups are incompatible is laughable. It's stereotypical dogshite preventing people from befriending each other.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadhak View Post
    This whole thread is like reading the first economics essay written by a 1st year undergrad. Terrible.

    TLDR: Short term pain, long-term gain
    Please tell us, when in the history of mankind have we had such large numbers of refugees being displaced and moving around the globe? By what measurement can you claim that millions of refugees clambering into Europe will have a long term positive affect?

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadhak View Post
    This whole thread is like reading the first economics essay written by a 1st year undergrad. Terrible.

    TLDR: Short term pain, long-term gain
    So wait another 1000 years?

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Please tell us, when in the history of mankind have we had such large numbers of refugees being displaced and moving around the globe? By what measurement can you claim that millions of refugees clambering into Europe will have a long term positive affect?
    Extend the same values and rights you enjoy and see them as fellow countrymen instead of excluding them to alien invader status. Then you'll see them have a positive effect on society like you and yours. That's what is so great about nations. People working together focusing on what they have in common. Focusing on what is different is important too but take it too far and you rip the nation apart...
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

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