Don't ask for balancing classes. Ask for the Burning Crusade.

[Thimagryn]

No,its just that most gamers want god mode. They will hack your game if they can, make themselves gods and one shot the final boss. We know this because we learned this back in the mid 1990s with Diablo 1. Diablo 1 was client side only, so everyone hacked the game, made themselves gods, walked down to diablo, one shot him,and then said "this game is boring" and quit. So we got Diablo 2, which offered the client-server model to prevent people from hacking the game files, to toss up roadblocks and obstacles, to get people to actually play the game. And so people found all kinds of hacks to get around the protections.

Gamers have not changed at ALL. You offer them vanilla, they immediately start asking Blizz to nerf EVERYTHING into the ground. Because what they REALLY want (but are too afraid to ask) is to have god mode. And its wrong to give it to them. I never expected anything else.

Blizzard has listened to the fans far too much since vanilla and they've nerfed a lot of systems and watered down the game.

Then you're also saying people who want classic also want god mode, because gamers don't change. I can't imagine everyone who wants Classic back never plays unfairly considering most are happy with keeping bad balance that obviously promotes certain classes over others and are looking forward to exploiting this information every bit they can.

[Soon-TM]

Then you're also saying people who want classic also want god mode, because gamers don't change. I can't imagine everyone who wants Classic back never plays unfairly considering most are happy with keeping bad balance that obviously promotes certain classes over others and are looking forward to exploiting this information every bit they can.

It's not "bad balance", it's a different approach to class design. I take it that you don't like it because you can't top raid DPS charts (the only part of the game you seem to be interested in) with your kitty, but there is far more to Vanilla than raiding, and you are fundamentally changing how the game would play. "Man, this is chess and I am a bishop, why is the queen so much more powerful? Buff pl0x".

[Loxotron]

Vanilla to me is just making sure the game play and experience is mostly intact.

There are modern systems I think that absolutely should be placed into Vanilla, that don't really detract from the core experience. I'm of the opinion the graphics don't count ( there is still a toggle for old character models if you really like that), and personally I don't really want to look at things like 2004 water when and spell effects, when I have a machine made for today's game.

Is anyone against modern looting systems, or the raiding interface in general? I'm not talking about adding personal loot, but I think the ability to have smarter tracking when a boss dies, in addition to the ability of being able to trade loot with eligible members absolutely should be standard in Vanilla. Why? It just frees up resources. Back then even if you could get a hold of a GM in an attempt to salvage loot that was mismanaged and/or bugged because of d/cs etc, there was about a 1% chance they would do anything about it. I think that's common sense too. What about the ability to restore items with the item restoration feature. Clearly that wasn't available back then, but does it really break the game?

What about guild interface, guild banks, and such? Obviously without any of the perks involved, but I don't see how that 'hurts' anything. It's just a more centralized way of doing things that are bit more transparent. This never happened to a guild I've been a part of, but the possibility of your guilds GM/Officers operating the guild bank on alts and just vanishing with it over night actually happened in Vanilla.

AoE looting is another thing, mind you it's probably not something that's absolutely needed considering it wasn't as common place to just mass AoE things down back in Vanilla either. On the flip side, what does it really hurt, except cut out 2-3 seconds of busy work between pulls? Improved mob spawn rate. Rares should be rare, yes, but should quest mobs have absurdly long respawn rates? Waiting around for several minutes really isn't that fun, and I don't see how an improvement in that area really destroys the experience of Vanilla either. I'm also of the opinion that shared mob tags within faction (that's not a rare spawn, because it wouldn't make sense, as that would have to allow personal loot) is a positive change in recent expansions as well.

Inventory in general. Pet battles shouldn't exist, but would it be acceptable to have a UI element like we have today that allows you to just look for toys, pets and mounts you've collected? I don't think anything of value is really lost if we don't have to have inventories clogged up with a couple of the pets and mounts you might like, or those several toys that were even present in Vanilla to begin with.

I don't really have plans to play Vanilla all that much (experienced it already), but might if there is dead time between a tier/expansion. The discussion however is fascinating because everybody wants something different. To me there are absolutely core QoL features that don't really go against what Vanilla (Classic) was all about, and I think I listed most of them.

Balancing classes is probably a fundamental no-no, as would making consumables easier to come by, speeding up the leveling experience or making a dungeon finder available. If people are honest though, there are quite a few things that can *improve* Vanilla without taking anything away from the core experience though.

1) Graphics of course doesn't hurt and probably would be implemented (80% sure about it).
2) I am absolutely against personal loot, i dunno how can it work in vanilla, for example from 1st boss in UBRS there are leather BIS pre raid shoulders for rogues, hunters, warriors, ferals, shammie's (or any phys dps overall) - how those classes can get them with personal loot? Would you able to receive any loot from all the loot table? And if every player receives 1 peice of loot from boss it makes gearing process way easier which also i would not like and probably many of players will agree with me.
3) Aoe looting and guild interface does not hurt anyone probably, agree. Mobs tagging - nope, since against personal loot.
4) All the vanity things should eat bags space, be sane and don't bring it with you or just suffer with less bag space.
5) Lot of people want different things, you are right, that's why it is safe not to implement any of it, so nobody will be upset. For example some of your proposals will be near deal breaker for me, and some mine would be deal breaker for some other guy or you (even though as i see you don't plan to play there).
6) Consumables is a part of balance and i wouldn't trust nowdays blizzard to make any changes, just simply their latest work tells me they are incapable of doing it the right way.

[Dudas]

It's not "bad balance", it's a different approach to class design. I take it that you don't like it because you can't top raid DPS charts (the only part of the game you seem to be interested in) with your kitty, but there is far more to Vanilla than raiding, and you are fundamentally changing how the game would play. "Man, this is chess and I am a bishop, why is the queen so much more powerful? Buff pl0x".

Too bad this is not chess since that is 1v1 and balanced since you both have the same pieces.
This is a game that you play with 39 other people in a raiding environment cause that is the ultimate goal of the game. And when you see a rogue not even doing his rotation properly but dealing almost double damage while you play perfect but you can't do anything more/better cause your class/spec is shit for that type of content it's pretty sad. Don't even get me started on "omfg we wipe on enrage" replace bad dps. What you play enchancement shaman in raid? Kick him and bring another rogue/warrior from the bench.

[Deleted]

It seems like a lot of people want Blizzard to "re-balance" some classes/specs (people that, in my opinion, just don't really want Classic) in the likeness of TBC. And by "re-balancing" they simply mean buffing their dps in raids (which combined with the fact that hybrids were already good in PVP, will ruin PVP).
Now, how they made classes in the Burning Crusade "balanced":
- by adding new talents and abilities like, for example, Vampiric Touch for priest which increased dps and solved mana issues;
- by giving to pure dps classes new PVP abilities to compensate for the increased dps of hybrids;
- they added a ton of class/spec specific gear so hybrids were on the same gear level as others;
- number of debuff slots was increased from 16 to 40, so raid leaders could invite more than 1 sp/boomy/or whatever.

Implementing all these changes in Classic would require a complete redesigning/retuning of all dungeons and raids. And, as a result, we would get a completely different game.

So, if you want classes to be "balanced" like in the Burning Crusade, just ask for the Burning Crusade servers. Leave Classic alone.

Fuck pvp.

Please make more viable tank specs and remove debuff limit

[Soon-TM]

Too bad this is not chess since that is 1v1 and balanced since you both have the same pieces.
This is a game that you play with 39 other people in a raiding environment cause that is the ultimate goal of the game. And when you see a rogue not even doing his rotation properly but dealing almost double damage while you play perfect but you can't do anything more/better cause your class/spec is shit for that type of content it's pretty sad. Don't even get me started on "omfg we wipe on enrage" replace bad dps. What you play enchancement shaman in raid? Kick him and bring another rogue/warrior from the bench.

It is not balanced 1v1, not even in PvP. If your GM is such a min-maxing whore that will bench you for MOAR DEEPZ, you have a choice; either you roll a real DPS class, since you have no interest in healing of tanking, or look for another guild. Vanilla raids don't require min-maxing, and never did. They just did require teamwork-oriented people. Btw, wiping to enrages? In Vanilla? What kind of trash guild did you play at?

[Dudas]

It is not balanced 1v1, not even in PvP. If your GM is such a min-maxing whore that will bench you for MOAR DEEPZ, you have a choice; either you roll a real DPS class, since you have no interest in healing of tanking, or look for another guild. Vanilla raids don't require min-maxing, and never did. They just did require teamwork-oriented people. Btw, wiping to enrages? In Vanilla? What kind of trash guild did you play at?

Or you have the choice to balance all the dps specs to be around the same values so it doesn't matter that much what dps spec you bring to the table and let people play what they want and be useful ? Make another character while people are progressing raid? Really that's your solution to the 8 specs that are unviable? Raiding always required min-maxing. And now it will be even worse. Can't wait for the section in warcraft logs for classic servers. Can't wait for people qq that they don't get accepted to raiding guilds cause they have horrible parses but hey that wasn't in vanilla so it shouldn't be nowadays taken into account.

[Deleted]

Managing inventory in Classic was and were never an issue. If there's an issue, the issue is you.

Nice try, but between all the items that are now in separate tabs or UI, reagents, consummables, tradeskill items, gear to swap for some classes - and with the biggest bags being 16 at the time - inventory space was at a premium. And then you could be a raiding warlock or a hunter (pet food, arrows) and be truly SoL.

[Deleted]

What about the BC-pre patch balancing, which is technically still a vanilla patch?

[Roar-Powah]

I really don't care how much Blizzard tune Classic servers, i just want the core of Vanilla to stay. That means communities,no forced crz bullshit, no lfg, no lfr etc. People are forgetting Blizzard know not to touch too much of the Vanilla experience, and i bet we will get a very close as what Vanilla was like.

[Soon-TM]

Or you have the choice to balance all the dps specs to be around the same values so it doesn't matter that much what dps spec you bring to the table and let people play what they want and be useful ? Make another character while people are progressing raid? Really that's your solution to the 8 specs that are unviable? Raiding always required min-maxing. And now it will be even worse. Can't wait for the section in warcraft logs for classic servers. Can't wait for people qq that they don't get accepted to raiding guilds cause they have horrible parses but hey that wasn't in vanilla so it shouldn't be nowadays taken into account.

Sorry, but no specs are unviable. They all have their uses, be it dungeons, PvP, raids or farming. And since Classic is starting fresh, you won't have the excuse of "OMG MUH RET DEEPZ QQ". Do you want to just deal damage and be "competitive" (in Vanilla, lol)? Then roll a freaking pure DPS class, it's not that difficult, really.

And no, there was no min-maxing in Vanilla raids, period. Min-maxing appeared during later BC, when raids became much more difficult (BT and especially SWP). I can see why your min-maxing guild was wiping to Vanilla enrages

[ManiaCCC]

Or you have the choice to balance all the dps specs to be around the same values so it doesn't matter that much what dps spec you bring to the table and let people play what they want and be useful ? Make another character while people are progressing raid? Really that's your solution to the 8 specs that are unviable? Raiding always required min-maxing. And now it will be even worse. Can't wait for the section in warcraft logs for classic servers. Can't wait for people qq that they don't get accepted to raiding guilds cause they have horrible parses but hey that wasn't in vanilla so it shouldn't be nowadays taken into account.

People are still missing point. In moment, when they will "balance" classes around raid environment, some of the classes will be just broken in other parts of the game. Without actually nerfing some other tools, there is no way they could balance classes and still keep the Vanilla feel intact.

EDIT: In most raids in Vanilla, if 15 people went AFK for whatever reason, the raid could be still completed no problem. Later in the patch cycle, they introduced more punishing mechanics but it never ever needed true min-maxing approach.

Keep in mind..in general, damage wasn't main issue, surviving was. That's why the most important aspect of the gearing for raids were all these resistances.

[Dudas]

People are still missing point. In moment, when they will "balance" classes around raid environment, some of the classes will be just broken in other parts of the game. Without actually nerfing some other tools, there is no way they could balance classes and still keep the Vanilla feel intact.

EDIT: In most raids in Vanilla, if 15 people went AFK for whatever reason, the raid could be still completed no problem. Later in the patch cycle, they introduced more punishing mechanics but it never ever needed true min-maxing approach.

Keep in mind..in general, damage wasn't main issue, surviving was. That's why the most important aspect of the gearing for raids were all these resistances.

Those won't be the issues anymore. Back then most players were casuals more or less. Now you will have hardcore raiding guilds from day one. They know everything they need on what raid members from day one. They will know what dps/tank/healer to gear in an instant. Good raiding guilds will only accept those race/class combinations that are the best, so they can clear all the raids asap and be done with it. Good guilds don't waste time on progress, they stomp.

So that's why some balance changes are needed cause if all tanking/dps/healing specs are around the same values those things won't matter and it will just be a matter of let's push as a 40 man stable and dedicated roster vs we need 8 warrior tanks for horsemen cause all those druids/paladins die to mechanics that they can't do anything against.

[ManiaCCC]

Those won't be the issues anymore. Back then most players were casuals more or less. Now you will have hardcore raiding guilds from day one. They know everything they need on what raid members from day one. They will know what dps/tank/healer to gear in an instant. Good raiding guilds will only accept those race/class combinations that are the best, so they can clear all the raids asap and be done with it. Good guilds don't waste time on progress, they stomp.

So that's why some balance changes are needed cause if all tanking/dps/healing specs are around the same values those things won't matter and it will just be a matter of let's push as a 40 man stable and dedicated roster vs we need 8 warrior tanks for horsemen cause all those druids/paladins die to mechanics that they can't do anything against.

Stop talking about Raiding as the only important aspect of the wow during vanilla. Again, in moment, they will try balance classes around raiding, it will ruin other aspects of the game. Not every spec will be viable in hardcore raiding and it is perfectly fine. It is not like raiding is ruined because of that.

Classes doesn't need balance changes to make them viable and playable everywhere, they need overhaul. Like they did during TBC. But it is most probably not happening in Classic.

[Zulatomten]

Nice try, but between all the items that are now in separate tabs or UI, reagents, consummables, tradeskill items, gear to swap for some classes - and with the biggest bags being 16 at the time - inventory space was at a premium. And then you could be a raiding warlock or a hunter (pet food, arrows) and be truly SoL.

You always worked the cards you were dealt.
Having a maximum of 4-5x 16 slot bags where totally enough for reagents, consumables, multiple gearsets and etc. Sure it was premium but you acually did have the bare minimum bagspace.

And on

Explain to me the fun in inventory management regarding mount + pet slots instead of having a proper UI that stores them in there.

Sure you can choose to have multiple kinds of mounts. But realisticly you only used one. You maybe had a few non-battle companions but you realisticly only bring one, to deal with the limited bagspace you had.

[Thimagryn]

It's not "bad balance", it's a different approach to class design. I take it that you don't like it because you can't top raid DPS charts (the only part of the game you seem to be interested in) with your kitty, but there is far more to Vanilla than raiding, and you are fundamentally changing how the game would play. "Man, this is chess and I am a bishop, why is the queen so much more powerful? Buff pl0x".

I don't like it because the first half of Vanilla was bad balance, period. The latter half I'm less concerned about but I do not expect the game to launch at 1.9-1.12 because of the obvious effects it has on early raid content.

And no, this isn't a case where classes are balanced like chess pieces. Like examples have been made, people can play as Hybrid DPS and Off Tank and that is their support role - but this gameplay is ONLY supported by later content patches (AQ-Naxx) because the itemization exists to support that. Any time before AQ, Hybrids were literally unable to do anything except provide buffs to other healers/tanks/dps and could literally AFK the rest of the way.

[gaymer77]

It seems like a lot of people want Blizzard to "re-balance" some classes/specs (people that, in my opinion, just don't really want Classic) in the likeness of TBC. And by "re-balancing" they simply mean buffing their dps in raids (which combined with the fact that hybrids were already good in PVP, will ruin PVP).

Very well spoken. Most of these vocal people on here and the official WoW forums who talk about what they want from the Classic servers are actually wanting to play BC but locked in at lvl 60 with no Outlands available. They want the redesign of classes that came with BC but the content of vanilla. Classic wasn't play as you want in any aspect of the game. Certain classes had certain uses for certain specs. Yes that meant that most of the time if your class COULD heal you WOULD heal if you wanted a raid spot. It meant mages were frost for certain progression then changed to fire for others. As much as hunters are known to be a pet class, pets typically weren't used in raids because of poor AI on all pets (and hunters being notorious for not having taunt OFF which is still an issue today). Classic should be left as it was when the game was released. The only discussion of it should be what patch the game should start at for talents not what tuning, balance, or changes should be made to it.

[Aliven]

Classic should be left as it was when the game was released.

I actually agree. No bug fixes whatsoever.

[gaymer77]

I actually agree. No bug fixes whatsoever.

Bug fixes or exploits should be fixed. Class tuning & balance should not nor should most any of the other changes these vocal people have about what should be changed about vanilla.

[Aliven]

Bug fixes or exploits should be fixed. Class tuning & balance should not nor should most any of the other changes these vocal people have about what should be changed about vanilla.

But bugs are essential part of vanilla experience. Do you want to rob people of their experience? Go play retail then.