Trump to impose 30 percent tariff on solar cell imports

[Endus]

That could work if the intention was to take this tariff money and inject it directly in American solar panel industry as R&D subvention or credits, no such a thing was said or declared.

Advantages of subsidies over tariffs;

1> The company gets the subsidy immediately, not dependent on sales, which lets them make up shortfalls in development and become competitive in the marketplace.
2> The savings get passed on to the consumer. Tariffs increase prices on imports, which raises prices to consumers indirectly. Subsidies are better for the working and middle class consumers.
3> Tariffs create greater international conflict over trade protectionism than subsidies (which still produce some, just not as much).
4> Subsidies generally act to make a more fair international marketplace with greater parity in costs, minimizing any chance that your citizens can save money by crossing the border to buy cheaper, non-tariff-inflated items.

[minteK917]

As far as I'm aware Euros only managed to find one case where Boeing and US coperation that broke WTO rules and that is being currently challenged. And while it is technically true that there is no "true free market", most developed nations follow certain principles which seek to make trade between nations more fair and free. China doesn't, which is why its labeled a non-market economy.

Thats just not true, there is no such a thing as free trade between nations, its a fantasy. Just look at two of the most free trade countries not in direct union like Canada and USA. Free trade is a fantasy even in north america. Just take wood as an example, Canada could eat up the American market because of the lower cost of production, American have to force a set % share of the market that Canada can be allowed to take and pay more taxes to inflate the price to match the American price. You can reverse this for the Diary industry, USA would eat up the entire Canadian market if Canada did not rig the market in its favor. AKA nothing is free trade lol.

How is this a free market when you decide how big your competition can be and to add fictional cost into their goods to match your own prices?

[Allybeboba]

That could work if the intention was to take this tariff money and inject it directly in American solar panel industry as R&D subvention or credits, no such a thing was said or declared.

I think( purely my opinion) the tariffs will be in place just to sway people to purchase domestic products. The import products will cost too much or equal to an American made product. The goal is to get people to buy American products, not to make money off the tariffs. And thus, helping American industry.

Cheers

[Endus]

Americans will start purchasing from domestic companies. Those domestic companies in turn will invest in R&D to make better/cheaper photovoltaic cells over the long term.
As it stands now, China has the upper hand because of their inexpensive manufacturing techniques. I provided a list on the 1st page of the top companies.

That Americans will start buying domestic is a hope, and if it doesn't come about, the house of cards you've constructed collapses completely, and does nothing but gouge your citizens with higher prices overall.

Whereas subsidies do provide companies that bankroll, right up front, and doesn't raise prices on your citizenry.

There's almost never a reason to favor tariffs, other than as a counter to some aggressive practice by international competitors beyond normal market activity (which objectively doesn't exist, here). There's a few niche other elements, like national-security-critical industries, but for the most part, subsidies are almost always more effective. Which is why most nations rely on subsidies, not tariffs.

[Felya]

how about being competitive, rather than imposing artificial tariff.

China has been subsidizing their solar panel production for years. They have pushed superior, but more expensive panels out of the market.

[minteK917]

I think( purely my opinion) the tariffs will be in place just to sway people to purchase domestic products. The import products will cost too much or equal to an American made product. The goal is to get people to buy American products, not to make money off the tariffs. And thus, helping American industry.

Cheers

Doesent work that way sadly. 30% Is far too little to hinder china itself and infact 30% increase cost of production for the American companies more then anything, because they were out sourcing parts even if not entire panels. A tariff that does not transfer the amount back directly into the industry, is simply that a tariff. The only way it helps the industry is if that money comes back directly into it to counter the increase in production cost the American companies will receive as a result.

Youd think the last attempt with the automobile industry would educate some of you a little. You are hurting your own industry more then which ever third world country your own companies are out sourcing from. Which is why the topic vanished instantly into the night. The solar panel industry even in america is not big enough yet to make its point against this kind of scam sadly. So unlike the automobile industry, they will have to bite the bullet for a public political scam.

[PC2]

It's more of a "we need more solar and other green energy sources to stop the planet from heating up as fast as it is" issue.

But hey, oil executives need another golden parachute to add to their collection and you lot will be complicit in it as always.

The fossil fuel industry is an easy to blame excuse to a hard problem. If society implemented all your political dreams it would solve energy problems slower. The only way to speed up energy progress is if some of you social studies master planners would switch to physics and engineering.

[Allybeboba]

That Americans will start buying domestic is a hope, and if it doesn't come about, the house of cards you've constructed collapses completely, and does nothing but gouge your citizens with higher prices overall.

Whereas subsidies do provide companies that bankroll, right up front, and doesn't raise prices on your citizenry.

There's almost never a reason to favor tariffs, other than as a counter to some aggressive practice by international competitors beyond normal market activity (which objectively doesn't exist, here). There's a few niche other elements, like national-security-critical industries, but for the most part, subsidies are almost always more effective. Which is why most nations rely on subsidies, not tariffs.

Of course there is.
Creating jobs within your own country instead of another one. Wouldn’t it be better to invest your money domestically as opposed to abroad? That’s what happening right now, too many companies are outsourcing to other countries.

Cheers

[Garnier Fructis]

Of coarse there is.
Creating jobs within your own country instead of another one. Wouldn’t it be better to invest your money domestically as opposed to abroad? That’s what happening right now, too many companies are outsourcing to other countries.

Cheers

Will there be enough jobs created by this to offset the expected job losses that this will create?

Chores

[Allybeboba]

Doesent work that way sadly. 30% Is far too little to hinder china itself and infact 30% increase cost of production for the American companies more then anything, because they were out sourcing parts even if not entire panels. A tariff that does not transfer the amount back directly into the industry, is simply that a tariff. The only way it helps the industry is if that money comes back directly into it to counter the increase in production cost the American companies will receive as a result.

Youd think the last attempt with the automobile industry would educate some of you a little. You are hurting your own industry more then which ever third world country your own companies are out sourcing from. Which is why the topic vanished instantly into the night. The solar panel industry even in america is not big enough yet to make its point against this kind of scam sadly.

That’s why one has to think of it as a long term investment.

Cheers

[Felya]

The fossil fuel industry is an easy to blame excuse to a hard problem. If society implemented all your political dreams it would solve energy problems slower. The only way to speed up energy progress is if some of you social studies master planners would switch to physics and engineering.

I’d prefer those who would rather study social studies, did just that... instead of having to deal with people who have no passion or desire for the job.

[Allybeboba]

Will there be enough jobs created by this to offset the expected job losses that this will create?

Chores

Job losses in China??? Let the Chinese worry about that.

Cheers

[Felya]

Of coarse there is.
Creating jobs within your own country instead of another one. Wouldn’t it be better to invest your money domestically as opposed to abroad? That’s what happening right now, too many companies are outsourcing to other countries.

Cheers

People who couldn’t afford US made solar cell, will not suddenly be able to afford them, if those from China are more expensive. US already makes superior cells to China. The market simply can not afford it...

[minteK917]

Of coarse there is.
Creating jobs within your own country instead of another one. Wouldn’t it be better to invest your money domestically as opposed to abroad? That’s what happening right now, too many companies are outsourcing to other countries.

Cheers

Subsidies would have the effect you are directly looking for. It would naturally push china out simply because your industry has more capital to grow and compete. You know the old saying, you need money to make money. Even if overnight China stopped selling solar panels out of the blue, the american industry wouldnt have the money to pick up the slack, it would need government help either way to take chinas void. This tariff will make it so american companies need more help, but no help is announced. China wont be phased out by 30% to begin with. That 30% will only increase the cost of your own industry productions. Your industry is not gona be able to open sweat shops paying 1 bucks day, its not turning around.

[Garnier Fructis]

Job losses in China??? Let the Chinese worry about that.

Cheers

Job losses in the states. I don't believe that you didn't know what I was talking about. Because the companies that make solar panel parts aren't necessarily the companies that install them. And companies that install solar panels just got fucked over.

Chairs

[Felya]

Job losses in China??? Let the Chinese worry about that.

Cheers

He might mean US production, that depends on China’s cheap manufacturing. If local businesses have to increase prices, because parts are more expensive, they will lose business.

[Edge-]

Job losses in China??? Let the Chinese worry about that.

Cheers

There's already discussion of the higher prices leading to lower demand, and consequently job cuts at places that sell, install, and repair them.

So yeah, job losses. Domestically.

[Sunseeker]

As has been pointed out:
This move is largely symbolic.
It isn't for the benefit of local solar manufacturers.
God damn Trump for doing something I actually agree with.

[NED funded]

Thats just not true, there is no such a thing as free trade between nations, its a fantasy. Just look at two of the most free trade countries not in direct union like Canada and USA. Free trade is a fantasy even in north america. Just take wood as an example, Canada could eat up the American market because of the lower cost of production, American have to force a set % share of the market that Canada can be allowed to take and pay more taxes to inflate the price to match the American price. You can reverse this for the Diary industry, USA would eat up the entire Canadian market if Canada did not rig the market in its favor. AKA nothing is free trade lol.

How is this a free market when you decide how big your competition can be and to add fictional cost into their goods to match your own prices?

Yes, states can violate those principles, we have a body in charge of ensuring that they don't and that allows other nations to pressure the violating nation to drop it off or be the subject of protectionism themselves. If Canada allows itself to be cucked that way, that is not a problem fo the system but of Canada.

[minteK917]

Yes, states can violate those principles, we have a body in charge of ensuring that they don't and that allows other nations to pressure the violating nation to drop it off or be the subject of protectionism themselves. If Canada allows itself to be cucked that way, that is not a problem fo the system but of Canada.

It allows itself to be cucked that way because it needs to sell the woods. Just like America will keep getting cucked out of the Canadian diary market, because it needs to sell its over production. Free trade, doesent exist. The international trading court never settle in anyway that resemble free trade, it goes for a compromise that still has the party protecting its market as the lesser evil.