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  1. #141
    I know I was upset about it at first, but the fact that I'm still using mouse bindings for shifting druid forms and summoning warlock pets, as well as the fact that I hadn't thought about it since the release of the expansion, means that it hasn't bothered me too much.

    I still think it's a mistake though, it's always funnier to have more alternatives, but it's not as bad as I thought it would be.

  2. #142
    Herald of the Titans MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    I'm not enjoying most of the tanking classes right now. Part of that is from pruning and part is just that abilities got changed. I used to feel like a savage with Warrior but their playstyle is a little lackluster now. I enjoyed Paladins having Holy Power and the abilities that came with it. I feel like they cut it early instead of expanding upon it to make it better. DKs completely changed since launch. Monks can no longer throw barrels. Druids feel clunky and slow.

  3. #143
    Orcboi NatePsy's Avatar
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    To be honest I can kinda see why they prune every so often. Take a look at games like FF14 who's rotations sometimes incorporate the use of rank 1-3 of the same spells and a long combination of abilities after the other just for the opener, it's tedious and I feel like FF14 needs to move away from that and just bake ranks into one ability for a more tidy rotation and not to mention there's been spells where I've been like "Why is this needed when there's this one?"

  4. #144
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    They have removed too many situational and iconic abilities. They have removed some abilities from some specs because of "class fantasy" bullshit, which is more a spec fantasy, and even this is flawed (like, fire and arcane mages still having a frost nova for roots). Compared to the huge amount of levels, we have too few abilities and talents. They should have at least divided the amount of levels by factor 5, or something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsychotic View Post
    To be honest I can kinda see why they prune every so often. Take a look at games like FF14 who's rotations sometimes incorporate the use of rank 1-3 of the same spells and a long combination of abilities after the other just for the opener, it's tedious and I feel like FF14 needs to move away from that and just bake ranks into one ability for a more tidy rotation and not to mention there's been spells where I've been like "Why is this needed when there's this one?"
    Because it's an RPG. WoW mage class in Classic and later expansions, before pruning, was comparable to the Wizard of D&D. They had a huge spell collection, but could not use all spells equally effective (because of feats / specialisations), and because they had to prepare spells each day, selecting the ones which fit (this would correspond to your action bar selection, which also is limited by space). Now, the mage is more like the Sorcerer class - only has a limited amount of spells, some specific spells which fit the bloodline (corresponding to spells unique to a specific specialisation bei WoW), but can use all of them at any time (because all of them can be put onto your action bars, and even some macros and use items on top of that). And you often wish you could have access to more spells, because they sometimes have a situational value, but you cannot get them. Sometimes, not even after you respec.

    This is a fundamental change of principle. Your mage is not a master of magic anymore, only someone who dabbles in one school at a time.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Sorry been awhile since i logged in but good to know those two are. The majority of stuff is still gone though no denying that
    the majority of the completely useless stuff are gone, yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    They have removed too many situational and iconic abilities. They have removed some abilities from some specs because of "class fantasy" bullshit, which is more a spec fantasy, and even this is flawed (like, fire and arcane mages still having a frost nova for roots). Compared to the huge amount of levels, we have too few abilities and talents. They should have at least divided the amount of levels by factor 5, or something like that.

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    Because it's an RPG. WoW mage class in Classic and later expansions, before pruning, was comparable to the Wizard of D&D. They had a huge spell collection, but could not use all spells equally effective (because of feats / specialisations), and because they had to prepare spells each day, selecting the ones which fit (this would correspond to your action bar selection, which also is limited by space). Now, the mage is more like the Sorcerer class - only has a limited amount of spells, some specific spells which fit the bloodline (corresponding to spells unique to a specific specialisation bei WoW), but can use all of them at any time (because all of them can be put onto your action bars, and even some macros and use items on top of that). And you often wish you could have access to more spells, because they sometimes have a situational value, but you cannot get them. Sometimes, not even after you respec.

    This is a fundamental change of principle. Your mage is not a master of magic anymore, only someone who dabbles in one school at a time.
    your mage is a specialist, not a scrub that throws mediocrity from every school

    Just like the idiots in the vanilla threads, don't conflate spell bloat with being an rpg element.

  6. #146
    I do. Hope they will revert most of the pruning in next expansion and rethink the most boring braindead specs (BM, Havoc, etc.).

  7. #147
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arrez View Post
    the majority of the completely useless stuff are gone, yes

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    your mage is a specialist, not a scrub that throws mediocrity from every school

    Just like the idiots in the vanilla threads, don't conflate spell bloat with being an rpg element.
    Mages were specialists before the prune as well, but they also could use off-school spells if they do desired, just as not as effectively. But in the name of "class fantasy", they completely forgot how to cast a simple untalented fireball; lots of fantasy for a class which is supposed to be the master of magic

    There are some idiots in the GD boards who mistake MMORPG with MOBA every single time...

  8. #148
    Immortal Zka's Avatar
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    It was not a mistake, pruning is totally fine. The abilities we had to keybind in MoP were approaching absurd levels.
    Obviously, you can't keep adding new abilities indefinitely, there are just ~15 hotkeys you can use comfortably and ~15 others you can use less comfortably. Beyond 30 hotkeys it's just retarded. And that's it, that's a pretty hard cap.
    Last edited by Zka; 2018-01-23 at 01:24 PM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Mages were specialists before the prune as well, but they also could use off-school spells if they do desired, just as not as effectively. But in the name of "class fantasy", they completely forgot how to cast a simple untalented fireball; lots of fantasy for a class which is supposed to be the master of magic

    There are some idiots in the GD boards who mistake MMORPG with MOBA every single time...
    Why would you cast a fireball when you are specialized in other schools, bruh? Because your special snowflake-isms demand it?

    I know, it must be sad that your fantasy isn't the class devs fantasy. There's D&D for that, you can cast all the rank 1 off spec spells there.

    And WoW is still very much an MMO. Spellbook bloat does not an mmo make

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsychotic View Post
    To be honest I can kinda see why they prune every so often. Take a look at games like FF14 who's rotations sometimes incorporate the use of rank 1-3 of the same spells and a long combination of abilities after the other just for the opener, it's tedious and I feel like FF14 needs to move away from that and just bake ranks into one ability for a more tidy rotation and not to mention there's been spells where I've been like "Why is this needed when there's this one?"
    Ffxiv actually did a pruning and class system changes this xpac. They removed cross class skills and made them determined by role, added a resource bar to every class, removed some skills and ranks of skills. It is a mixed bad imo.

    Pvp wise they turned combos into one button that changes aa you use it so you only really have 4-6 buttons..maybe 8 i don't pvp alot.

    It was still a better job then blizzard did though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arrez View Post
    the majority of the completely useless stuff are gone, yes

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    your mage is a specialist, not a scrub that throws mediocrity from every school

    Just like the idiots in the vanilla threads, don't conflate spell bloat with being an rpg element.
    Heh some of us DO miss the more rpg style of vanilla(played on one of the private servers was far more fun imo)

    Having that assortment of skills, the class quests while leveling even buying skills and skill rsnks added alot to the world and game imo. Ot also wasn't so raid or die/endgame heavy the journey could be just as fun for plenty of people and the talent trees could let you dick around and make crazy builds that while nonviable in raids were alot of fun.

    So yeah some of us DO prefer that

  11. #151
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arrez View Post
    Why would you cast a fireball when you are specialized in other schools, bruh? Because your special snowflake-isms demand it?

    I know, it must be sad that your fantasy isn't the class devs fantasy. There's D&D for that, you can cast all the rank 1 off spec spells there.

    And WoW is still very much an MMO. Spellbook bloat does not an mmo make
    It is an MMO, sure, but I'm not so sure about the RPG part. And casting offspec spells happened all the time, for example if you were a fire mage and got locked out, you could still use frost or arcane spells (e.g. arcane missiles on a target that was about to LoS you). But I know, such details qualify as "special snowflake" these days

  12. #152
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arrez View Post
    Why would you cast a fireball when you are specialized in other schools, bruh? Because your special snowflake-isms demand it?

    I know, it must be sad that your fantasy isn't the class devs fantasy. There's D&D for that, you can cast all the rank 1 off spec spells there.

    And WoW is still very much an MMO. Spellbook bloat does not an mmo make
    Mmo yes mmo rpg...kinda. it has alot of the requurements but they really are removing alot of the choices or variety

    And we are freaking powerhouse mages leading the order yes we should be using other schools skills as in basic magic stuff.

    Think of it like school you are given various subjects be it math, history, pe, art, music or english.

    You may excel at one like art or english maybe pe. But you still have the at least basic knowledge of the others to draw from when needed. Given i am pretty damn sure most of us are NOT hedge mages(do they even exist in wow?) But formally trained(or at least was) then yeah i say we should by all rights have other spells.

    That said should a firemage have blizzard? Nah but a basic arcabe spell or ice bolt yeah if only to get the basic principles of stuff. They really did remove far too much..hell you cam use a controller with wow now with less work then ffxiv(see consoleport mod)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    It is an MMO, sure, but I'm not so sure about the RPG part. And casting offspec spells happened all the time, for example if you were a fire mage and got locked out, you could still use frost or arcane spells (e.g. arcane missiles on a target that was about to LoS you). But I know, such details qualify as "special snowflake" these days
    Wow feels more like an action or lobby game woth rpg stuff being the story/campaign mode.

    If being blunt it feels alot like blizzards games are just blending into each other at least diablo 3 and wow are. They take so much from each other in some ways feels like different coats of paint on very similar gsmes.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by arrez View Post
    Why would you cast a fireball when you are specialized in other schools, bruh? Because your special snowflake-isms demand it?

    I know, it must be sad that your fantasy isn't the class devs fantasy. There's D&D for that, you can cast all the rank 1 off spec spells there.

    And WoW is still very much an MMO. Spellbook bloat does not an mmo make
    Yeah why would a fire mage want to cast Frostbolt?

    When they did the mass prune at the end of WoD in the name of class fantasy, a lot of classes/specs got hollowed out. Fewer abilities, situational abilities removed, fewer decisions to make in combat, and a lot more standing around waiting for procs or resource bar to refill. Without any buttons to press, the buff to mob HP merely extends dull combat for 3x as long.

  14. #154
    I'm more concerned with all the simpletons whom jumped the "pruning bandwagon" without paying any heed to the synergy and design of classes during Legion Alpha/Beta.

    Number of possible abilities you can have on your bars =/= you'll actually be using them all. All the abilities I have on my bars now, I use in combat/gameplay. The issues I have with my class won't be fixed by adding more abilities to please previously mentioned simpletons, but rather by a rework to the gameplay and synergy of the abilities that exist and the talent options.

    An MMORPG is not judged based on number of abilities, nor do randoms get to decide if a game qualifies for the genre or not based on their own feels... usually drawing from a very narrow-minded outlook at that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post

    Wow feels more like an action or lobby game woth rpg stuff being the story/campaign mode.
    Another one throwing buzzwords.

    WoW is an MMORPG, you playing it as a lobby game (AKA sitting in a city hitting random queues and considerin the world of the game as a side effect?) doesn't change what the game is for a fact as well as to others. As for "action game", I'm not sure how that negates the game still being MMO and RPG.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matchm...games)#Lobbies

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_game

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massiv...me#Roleplaying
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2018-01-23 at 04:42 PM.

  15. #155
    For some classes yes. I miss having Fortifying Brew and Zen Med as a WW monk and being able to survive everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prifter View Post
    Of course it was a mistake. They remove most abilities then make the leveling harder making players realize how shallow the gameplay actually is.
    More abilities =/= better gameplay.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  16. #156
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    I'm more concerned with all the simpletons whom jumped the "pruning bandwagon" without paying any heed to the synergy and design of classes.

    Number of possible abilities you can have on your bars =/= you'll actually be using them all. All the abilities I have on my bars now, I use in combat/gameplay. The issues I have with my class won't be fixed by adding more abilities to please previously mentioned simpletons, but rather by a rework to the gameplay and synergy of the abilities that exist and the talent options.

    An MMORPG is not judged based on number of abilities, nor do randoms get to decide if a game qualifies for the genre or not based on their own feels... usually drawing from a very narrow-minded outlook at that...
    I can sympathize with a part of this post. For example, if outdoor mobs are actually dangerous if pulled inadvertently, (old) skills like Priest's Mind Soothe become much more valuable. If mobs live long enough to interrupt your spellcasting, the ability to cast offspec stuff is suddenly convenient, even necessary sometimes. If pulling 3 mobs spells trouble, then having some crutch healing, like the instant FoL of Ret Paladins in WotLK, stops being "bloat" and is instead appreciated.

    Now, if the outdoor mobs present no danger whatsoever, and the only actual danger in instanced content is conveyed through soaking and 1-shot mechanics, of course it becomes unnecessary.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I can sympathize with a part of this post. For example, if outdoor mobs are actually dangerous if pulled inadvertently, (old) skills like Priest's Mind Soothe become much more valuable. If mobs live long enough to interrupt your spellcasting, the ability to cast offspec stuff is suddenly convenient, even necessary sometimes. If pulling 3 mobs spells trouble, then having some crutch healing, like the instant FoL of Ret Paladins in WotLK, stops being "bloat" and is instead appreciated.

    Now, if the outdoor mobs present no danger whatsoever, and the only actual danger in instanced content is conveyed through soaking and 1-shot mechanics, of course it becomes unnecessary.
    But plenty of mobs and areas in Legion have and do present danger.

    The new scaling to the old world makes it necessary to use what the classes have both in the outdoors as well as in dungeons. If the devs just went ham and added a ton of utility for the sake of having more spells, the content would effectively be nerfed as a result.

    Last time I got in trouble with my level 60 hunter, I had to use EVERYTHING in order to not die. Slows, freezing traps, pet instant ress, self-heal, feign death, pet healing, summoning a tank pet, kiting, DPS CDs. Felt pretty damned nice being able to survive the situation through knowing what to use rather than just having more utility than could fit on the bars and just mindlessly mashing it all.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2018-01-23 at 04:59 PM.

  18. #158
    Well...watch as BfA manages to prune classes even further.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukario View Post
    Well...watch as BfA manages to prune classes even further.
    Citation needed, because pretty sure they said there won't be major Class overhauls in BfA. Some classes will no doubt have some fixes to how they play based on feedback, but no class currently suffers from clutter of abilities.

  20. #160
    The pruning itself - not. I don't mind at all the idea of spending 5 talent points to progressively decrease the cast time on Arcane Explosion to zero.

    The way they did it - absolutely. The creativity of cross spec builds (elemental mage, or PoM pyro fire etc) and full on pure specs as well is what I missed.

    We ended up with too much homogenisation all in the name of some deluded wish for 'balance'.

    If we really want balance - we just have one class and one spec and we all play it.

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


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