The Alliance defeated Garrosh at the end of Mist.

[Traveler Voltin]

Banshee wail.
Horde wins

[Jester Joe]

its thrall voljin baine sylvanas gallywixx lothemar thrall vs jaina tyrande varian moira

so the horde would win
lorthemar is described as a war/ranger hybrid and the most skilled spellbreaker in history and looking in lore a adept high elf/blood elf mage is far more skilled than an expert dalaran mage so no jaina is nothing

https://twitter.com/MickyNeilson/sta...61181566980096

Try again.

sylvanas after wotlk is pretty much op looking in lore she is almost as powerful as the lich king was before wotlk boosted his power

Would like a source on that.

baine is stated to be as strong as his farther who was on pair with grom hellscream who was way more powerful than varian who died to guldan who is weaker than mannoroth which grom defeated so again horde wins

Uh...what
Physical strength does not equal power in WoW. Don't forget Gul'dan was able to revive Mannoroth alone. Gul'dan is ridiculously powerful. And he alone did not kill Varian, the constant flood of demons did.

and then there is tyrande which is the most powerful alliance who where there she would be facing 6 v1

Wrong, as Jaina is still quite free to do whatever she wants.

in every scenario where lore is taking in consideration alliance would loose
this is not my opinion but its facts

Except you made up lore. Lor'themar isn't a spellbreaker.

[Combatbutler]

Uh...what
Physical strength does not equal power in WoW. Don't forget Gul'dan was able to revive Mannoroth alone. Gul'dan is ridiculously powerful. And he alone did not kill Varian, the constant flood of demons did.

To be fair Gul'dan never tried to fight Varian one on one and it still could have easily ended up like this https://youtu.be/levTG8D4Joc?t=64

Wrong, as Jaina is still quite free to do whatever she wants.

With Sylvanas present she isn't, banshees are pretty much anti casters.

[Daws]

So much effort going in recently to threads arguing which side is stronger or which is the evil faction. Can't we all just realise how bad the writing of WoW is and leave it at that?

[Jester Joe]

To be fair Gul'dan never tried to fight Varian one on one and it still could have easily ended up like this https://youtu.be/levTG8D4Joc?t=64

It could have, yes. But either way, I'm not claiming that Gul'dan is weaker than Mannoroth. I would think they're not too far apart honestly, one is just a caster.

With Sylvanas present she isn't, banshees are pretty much anti casters.

Would that end up screwing over her own teammates though? Is it something that she can freely do without being interrupted?

[Friendlyimmolation]

It could have, yes. But either way, I'm not claiming that Gul'dan is weaker than Mannoroth. I would think they're not too far apart honestly, one is just a caster.



Would that end up screwing over her own teammates though? Is it something that she can freely do without being interrupted?

Her cries empower her allies.

[Combatbutler]

Would that end up screwing over her own teammates though? Is it something that she can freely do without being interrupted?

She used these powers in the past and her allies weren't affected, her screams are even powerful enough to shatter bones and armor lorewise, while totally negating casting, all she has to do is screech.

[azshanna]

another joke by another alliance fanboy ! and jaina is a psychopath who has no idea what the hell shes talking about ! not even kirin tor respect her anymore !

[MikeBogina]

This alone shows how faulty your argument is.

The orcs who were in Orgrimmar were the ones who swore loyalty to Garrosh.
They're the ones who, if they escaped, followed Garrosh after he came back in WoD too.

Nazgrim is the exception to the rule, because he was too loyal to a fault. He knew what he was doing was wrong, and this can even been seen if you complete the Gamon achievement for SoO, where he specifically says he leaves the future of the Horde to Gamon.

If you raised any of those orcs (who HAD the chance to side with the Horde and instead chose the True Horde), they're going to try to free Garrosh.

Again you don't get Horde society, especially the Orcs. Many of the Orcs you face(not the foaming at the mouth ones) but just all around soldiers and grunts are just following orders.

And you say Nazgrim is the only exception because he has a name, voice and boss fight, but none of his soldiers get the same exception?

Fiercely loyal to the Horde and bound by a rigorous code of honor and duty, Nazgrim will hold the line for his warchief until his dying breath. Unlike many of our Raid bosses, he is not necessarily wicked, but he is a soldier whose loyalty to Orgrimmar leaves him no choice but to defend its walls. Of course, the Alliance likely has a different perspective on just how “noble” his past actions have been. . . .

This would apply to many orcs, especially the ones Nazgrim himself leads. So yeah a lot of those prisoners and especially most of the undead would without a doubt side with the Horde, even a large number of undead alliance(Forsaken is made up of so many of their enemies)

Also, PS, I never said I was an Alliance player.

PS, that's because it was already obvious that you were one :P

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Another of Sylvanas' powers

Sylvanas is adept at demon magic — having the ability to drain life, create skeletons, and use mind control.

I don't even like her that much, but she's brokenly op in this scenario

[Doomislav]

So much effort going in recently to threads arguing which side is stronger or which is the evil faction. Can't we all just realise how bad the writing of WoW is and leave it at that?

This. That is all.

[Terongor]

its thrall voljin baine sylvanas gallywixx lothemar thrall vs jaina tyrande varian moira

so the horde would win
lorthemar is described as a war/ranger hybrid and the most skilled spellbreaker in history and looking in lore a adept high elf/blood elf mage is far more skilled than an expert dalaran mage so no jaina is nothing
sylvanas after wotlk is pretty much op looking in lore she is almost as powerful as the lich king was before wotlk boosted his power
baine is stated to be as strong as his farther who was on pair with grom hellscream who was way more powerful than varian who died to guldan who is weaker than mannoroth which grom defeated so again horde wins
and then there is tyrande which is the most powerful alliance who where there she would be facing 6 v1

in every scenario where lore is taking in consideration alliance would loose
this is not my opinion but its facts

1) Sylvanas lost to a weakling like Lord Godfrey and also she had the hard time against Genn who is weaker than Varian.
2) Where was Cairne stated to as strong as Grom? Give me an source. Also not rpg source because they are not canon.
Also we can se how strong Grom is when on AU draenor Gul'dan just defeated him with a one spell and Gul'dan didn't even fear him enough to finish him of and he could have easily done the same to Grom. Also Grommash hits againts Mannoroth where same as Godfrey against Sylvanas.
3) There has NEVER being any source saying that Lor'themar is any Spellbreaker. All this he have being stated of being is Elven ranger and Hunter. If you don't have any official source I call BS. Also Jaina is stated to be one of strongest mages alive and she has taken part of the power of Ra-den in ToT.
Also there is Anduin who had already ressurected people earlier in lore and Gelbin who had has always some extremely dangerous mechanical machines with him like bombs and guns which seem to be Sylvanses achilles heel.

Also Horde soldier number where pretty low belfs 10% original high elven population and they couldn't bring all of their military might there. Darkspear tribe where always low compared any other troll tribe like gurubashi and amani and they suffered losses and starvation because of Garrosh. Tauren had a two years ago fought a bloody civil war and people don't grow so fastly. Most of Orchiss military sided with Garrosh which was the biggest part of hordes might. Goblins where people who had escape from an island and all their number fitted in Three boats more might have joined, but max triple. So only real military might in the horde in Orgrimmar was Forsaken.

Alliance had full might of Stormwind which hadn't suffered major military losses since tides of war. All three dwarf clans which are really huge together, Night elven military which had experience 1000 year about and steady population growth. and Gnomes with all their machine though they can't be so many. Also Troll and Tauren forces suffered heavy losses against Kor'kron juggernaut. Also whole might of Kirin tor mages where with Jaina. Also most talented Warriors and mages of belfs are still staying at the side A'dal(Scyers) as Kael took the most elite with to Outland and it was said that best chanced sides to A'dal.

I like Horde more, but I feel it would be a total war of chaos and many would lose their lives, but alliance forces size still give them the edge.

[Jester Joe]

Again you don't get Horde society, especially the Orcs. Many of the Orcs you face(not the foaming at the mouth ones) but just all around soldiers and grunts are just following orders.

And you say Nazgrim is the only exception because he has a name, voice and boss fight, but none of his soldiers get the same exception?

This would apply to many orcs, especially the ones Nazgrim himself leads. So yeah a lot of those prisoners and especially most of the undead would without a doubt side with the Horde, even a large number of undead alliance(Forsaken is made up of so many of their enemies)

Except any of the orcs you interact with while in there are shouting about how Garrosh is the best thing since sliced bread.

It's not a matter of "me not knowing Horde", it's you don't seem to realize that there were orcs who chose to still rebel even within Orgrimmar (See, the warlock trainers). It had NOTHING to do with the Blood Oath, otherwise there would have been no rebellion.

Were there some orcs that felt forced like Nazgrim? Sure. But the rest were portrayed as diehard followers.

[mickybrighteyes]

2) Where was Cairne stated to as strong as Grom? Give me an source. Also not rpg source because they are not canon.

only sources I could find were shit like RTS unit stats. named characters were mirrors of the random hero units. Tauren chieftans got 3.2 str per lvl, Blademasters got 2 str per lvl... hell chiefs only got matched by the crypt lord for strength potential. Only thing Grom had on him in the game files was attack speed and techniques.

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Except any of the orcs you interact with while in there are shouting about how Garrosh is the best thing since sliced bread.

It's not a matter of "me not knowing Horde", it's you don't seem to realize that there were orcs who chose to still rebel even within Orgrimmar (See, the warlock trainers). It had NOTHING to do with the Blood Oath, otherwise there would have been no rebellion.

Were there some orcs that felt forced like Nazgrim? Sure. But the rest were portrayed as diehard followers.

you clearly weren't interacting with all teh orcs. hell there were numerous quest givers that called out their hot blooded younger generation for falling in with the propaganda.

[Jester Joe]

you clearly weren't interacting with all teh orcs. hell there were numerous quest givers that called out their hot blooded younger generation for falling in with the propaganda.

You mean the ones that left to rebel against Garrosh?

The ones that he's not talking about being rezzed by Valks?

[MikeBogina]

You mean the ones that left to rebel against Garrosh?

The ones that he's not talking about being rezzed by Valks?

Again ^^^^ doesn't get anything going on in the Horde side. Many Orcs didn't rebel, but stayed in Orgrimmar and helped defend. Many of them were killed and many of them were spared. Many of them don't know anything about what's going on and just know their city is being attacked by Rebels and Alliance, use some logic.

This wasn't even my point to begin with and it's sad we're at this point. Clearly going back, it seems I won the "Sylvanas vs Jaina" one and the "Horde vs Alliance", but all you can try to argue now is if 100% of the orcs in that city were evil and had full knowledge of Garrosh's wrong doings...

[Jester Joe]

Again ^^^^ doesn't get anything going on in the Horde side. Many Orcs didn't rebel, but stayed in Orgrimmar and helped defend. Many of them were killed and many of them were spared. Many of them don't know anything about what's going on and just know their city is being attacked by Rebels and Alliance, use some logic.

This wasn't even my point to begin with and it's sad we're at this point. Clearly going back, it seems I won the "Sylvanas vs Jaina" one and the "Horde vs Alliance", but all you can try to argue now is if 100% of the orcs in that city were evil and had full knowledge of Garrosh's wrong doings...

Oh, I'm sure they just accidentally tripped over and didn't see the Theramore citizens being slain and torture.

And they just happened to miss the other Horde faction leaders building a resistance outside, along with refugees who escaped Orgrimmar. Oh, and they just happened to be dressed in Korkron gear, because you know, they had no idea what was going on.

They also totally weren't scattered throughout all of the underground Orgrimmar area, seeing everything that Garrosh is doing, nor where they there when he tipped the heart into the Vale, nor did they help dig up the heart.

It's abundantly clear, the orcs KNEW, and they chose to stay and fight against the Alliance/Horde FOR Garrosh.

And no, you didn't win the argument, Friendly and Combat were actually the ones to support the argument.

There is no "Doesn't understand what's going on in the Horde side". You are making up wild claims that the orcs were somehow ignorant of what was going on, while the quest givers and lore all repeatedly mentions how Garrosh was favored by the younger, hotheaded orcs who did not know the horrors of war. Nor all the propaganda.

And your claim was that somehow the Horde would end the Alliance there. When even Chris Metzen himself said after SoO, the Alliance was the dominant superpower.

[Zulkhan]

2) Where was Cairne stated to as strong as Grom? Give me an source. Also not rpg source because they are not canon.

There's no such thing like direct comparisons but the original WoW manual outrigth stated Cairne to be one of the most dangerous creatures on the planet when he was alive. And he kinda proved that when he made an embarassing quick work of Garrosh Hellscream, a warrior who, without Goldrinn's shenanigans, proved to be at least on par with Varian.

[Terongor]

There's no such thing like direct comparisons but the original WoW manual outrigth stated Cairne to be one of the most dangerous creatures on the planet when he was alive. And he kinda proved that when he made an embarassing quick work of Garrosh Hellscream, a warrior who, without Goldrinn's shenanigans, proved to be at least on par with Varian.

Well that I do agree Cairne was alot better than Garrosh at that point, but Garrosh had become alot stronger to the end of Mop and wod. Also Garrosh wasn't that good at two-handed weapons at that point. I'm not saying Garrosh could have beaten Cairne at any point(well maybe with heart of y'sharaah, but thats a topic for someother day).

Baine just don't have the combat experience of his father at end of mop and might not be able to use all of his kinds physically advantages to his max. So combat experience might give Varian an edge.

[Zulkhan]

Well that I do agree Cairne was alot better than Garrosh at that point, but Garrosh had become alot stronger to the end of Mop and wod.

There's no noticeable shift between Cata and MoP. The most relevant one was between WotLK and Cata, given all the shit Garrosh went through in Northrend and the change of his fighting style once he got Gorehowl.

Also Garrosh wasn't that good at two-handed weapons at that point.

He was never shown to be better at dual-wielding. Yes, he was surely accustomed to that but given his superior warrior prowess compared to the average orc (great enough to push him to the position of Chieftain back in Nagrand despite his crippling depression) he was probably quite proficient with two-handed weapons as well. If that wasn't the case, he would have surely chosen the set of weapons he was the most skilled with to face a death challenge against one of the most fearsome warriors ever.

Baine just don't have the combat experience of his father at end of mop and might not be able to use all of his kinds physically advantages to his max. So combat experience might give Varian an edge.

What Baine lacks in experience he compensates with a way younger, stronger and more vigorous body compared to the 106 years old body of Cairne. The "alternate" Baine coming from another dimension during the War Crimes events claimed the mantle of Warchief by literally tearing Garrosh part with his bare hands. As it usually works with the rest of his race, the bull is placid as long you don't give it reasons to become quite angry.

[MikeBogina]

Oh, I'm sure they just accidentally tripped over and didn't see the Theramore citizens being slain and torture.

Because you're an alliance player and didn't know that these "prisoners" didn't pop up until SoO and neither does this point have anything to do with how these Orcs wouldn't fight the alliance if given another chance.

And they just happened to miss the other Horde faction leaders building a resistance outside, along with refugees who escaped Orgrimmar. Oh, and they just happened to be dressed in Korkron gear, because you know, they had no idea what was going on.

Rebellion happened fairly quick and to many it would look like Voljin was an usurper who just went around the barrens killing Orcs like crazy.
Every Orc had Korkron gear? The fighting above ground only involved 1/3 of the city at best and even below ground you have normal Horde soldiers standing with Nazgrim and later with the Horde

They also totally weren't scattered throughout all of the underground Orgrimmar area, seeing everything that Garrosh is doing, nor where they there when he tipped the heart into the Vale, nor did they help dig up the heart.

Do you... seriously think the Orc population is like 20-30 orcs? Do you seriously think all the Orcs in Orgrimmar got on a boat and went to Pandaria?
I mean this point alone just makes it harder to go on with you if seriously believe the nonsense you just did.

That's like taking Game of Thrones and saying the guards at the gates of Kingslanding knows that Cersei has a giant zombie guarding her...

I did enjoy this back and forth for a bit, but I can't take it serious anymore if you honestly believe the population of a town or city is what's in game.