Necromancer vs Tinker: Which class would be better for the game?

[Teriz]

Other than the alchemist and tinker abilities. There are also several abilities in the game that have not been translated into the game, either.

Just like the DK's abilities prior to WotLK. Just like the Brewmaster's abilities prior to MoP.

Again, you keep saying abilities were "only translated into NPC or classes" yet ignoring all the translation of the tinker and alchemist into the two respective professions.

Again that is a false statement, because none of the Tinker and Alchemist's abilities were translated into the professions.

And there we go, demanding 1:1 translation...

So are you seriously saying that the DK can't have a high level ability where it raises 6 invulnerable minions for a few seconds with a semi-long CD? The minions could be the last six mobs it killed, just a little bit larger, and purple, just like the WC3 ability.

Sounds quite a bit different from Army of the Dead.

Functionality, concept and theme are the same. A technological construct that creates walking bombs that home in on a target.

Except the dispenser doesn't create the bomb, it dispenses it.

Again, a factory and a Gumball Machine aren't the same concept/theme/thing.

It's expected that a NPC who is a "master of ale" to have an ability that incites a drunken haze on their opponents. "Ale" is not the sole domain of the Pandaren Brewmaster.

Oh look, you're ignoring the point again. What a surprise!

[Ielenia]

Again that is a false statement, because none of the Tinker and Alchemist's abilities were translated into the professions.

You just refuse to admit it, because admitting it makes your entire arguments crumble. It's beyond obvious those two neutral WC3 heroes' concepts were adapted into the WoW professions.

So are you seriously saying that the DK can't have a high level ability where it raises 6 invulnerable minions for a few seconds with a semi-long CD? The minions could be the last six mobs it killed, just a little bit larger, and purple, just like the WC3 ability.

Sounds quite a bit different from Army of the Dead.

Yeah, and mages could get mass teleport. Warriors could also get the 'mirror image' skill. (/sarcasm)

The point is: Army of the Dead is the WC3 ability. Both summon a number of undead minions to fight for them. Also 'animate dead' would just be too similar a name with 'Raise Dead', another DK ability that raises one dead party/raid member, which also happens to have the WC3's 'animate dead' icon, btw.

Except the dispenser doesn't create the bomb, it dispenses it.

Again, a factory and a Gumball Machine aren't the same concept/theme/thing.

Except the tooltip says it creates a mobile bomb...

Oh look, you're ignoring the point again. What a surprise!

I can't ignore something that I can't find, in the first place. You're all over the place with that.

[Teriz]

You just refuse to admit it, because admitting it makes your entire arguments crumble. It's beyond obvious those two neutral WC3 heroes' concepts were adapted into the WoW professions.

You can't admit to something that doesn't exist. There are zero Tinker and Alchemist WC3 hero abilities in either profession. That's simply the reality.

Yeah, and mages could get mass teleport. Warriors could also get the 'mirror image' skill. (/sarcasm)

Except Mages do have mass teleport (highly modified for balance), and Mages have Mirror Image.

The point is: Army of the Dead is the WC3 ability. Both summon a number of undead minions to fight for them. Also 'animate dead' would just be too similar a name with 'Raise Dead', another DK ability that raises one dead party/raid member, which also happens to have the WC3's 'animate dead' icon, btw.

Raise Dead in WC3 also summoned a number of undead minions to fight for the Necromancer. In fact Raise Dead could summon more undead minions than Animate Dead could.

Except the tooltip says it creates a mobile bomb...

Except a dispenser doesn't create anything.

Regardless, a Trinket with a 30 minute cooldown is not a factory that rapidly produces robots. Different theme, and different concept.

I can't ignore something that I can't find, in the first place. You're all over the place with that.

You can't figure out that WC3 hero abilities have entered WoW via NPCs before being placed in classes? That's pretty sad.

Anyway, we've derailed this thread long enough with your special brand of nonsense. Feel free to have the last word.

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So... the thing with Tinkers is that the ideas flow really easily. They can fill any of the 3 archtypes and theres loads to pull from in the theme of technology already in the game.
How to fit it in the game is where there are some challenges. The expansion of Gadgetzan and the blingtron war in an Underground expansion could be a fitting setting. Battle would have fit aswell with the war theme, but that boat has presumably sailed.

Check out this thread:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-The-Undermine

The expansion of Gadgetzan, and the Blingtron War could all be part of such an expansion.

Necromancer has a problem. What specs would it have? Ranger and melee DPS? The abilities would have to draw heavily from existing ones. Possible? If blizzard really wants to make them, sure. But i think that it's the time for a more non-edgy dark class next, like the monk. After that, if a wrath 2 happens, it could fit.

The bard is the one i think has no hope. There can't be a buff based class added to the game as it would upset the balance and be mandatory in every group. If the buffs are in line with other classes, then there isn't anything really special about them.
The other problem is ETC. In heroes ETC is a warrior, let's be honest. He is heavily themed to a Tauren, and i don't see how it would fit the alliance.
Finally, what specs would they bring? We know tank sort of works based on ETC in heroes, though as mentioned, he is pretty much a warrior, would we have ranged DPS? With what weapons? What would fit? Music damage? I dunno, it doesn't flow. I really don't know how it could work, but feel free to extrapolate/think it up.

Agreed on all counts.

[Ielenia]

Except Mages do have mass teleport (highly modified for balance), and Mages have Mirror Image.

So an ability that teleports many units to a location of your choosing is the same as an ability that creates a portal to preset locations... but an ability that summons a group of undead to fight for you is not the same as an ability that summons a group of undead to fight for you?

Regardless, a Trinket with a 30 minute cooldown is not a factory that rapidly produces robots. Different theme, and different concept.

So... previously in the same post of yours you admit "highly modified for balance"... but now you refuse to admit the same thing?

You can't figure out that WC3 hero abilities have entered WoW via NPCs before being placed in classes? That's pretty sad.

No, I'm still waiting for you to show the relevancy of said information.

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The bard is the one i think has no hope. There can't be a buff based class added to the game as it would upset the balance and be mandatory in every group. If the buffs are in line with other classes, then there isn't anything really special about them.

The only ones who are stating that the bard class has to be a support class are you, guys. Several-- no, many times it has been explained how the bard class could easily work within the game without being a "buff-bot". At least no more than what the current classes can.

The other problem is ETC. In heroes ETC is a warrior, let's be honest.

May I remind you that, prior to Wrath of the Lich King, Death Knights were warriors with this or that warlock ability.

He is heavily themed to a Tauren, and i don't see how it would fit the alliance.

We're not saying the ETC is the face of a bard. I'm saying he could be adapted into one. Just like Chen Stormstout got adapted as a monk.

Finally, what specs would they bring?

Healing with spellsongs, spellcaster DPS with spellsongs, physical ranged with archery supported by some spellsong abilities, melee dps with spellsong support. That's four possible choices.

[Deleted]

So an ability that teleports many units to a location of your choosing is the same as an ability that creates a portal to preset locations... but an ability that summons a group of undead to fight for you is not the same as an ability that summons a group of undead to fight for you?


So... previously in the same post of yours you admit "highly modified for balance"... but now you refuse to admit the same thing?


No, I'm still waiting for you to show the relevancy of said information.

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The only ones who are stating that the bard class has to be a support class are you, guys. Several-- no, many times it has been explained how the bard class could easily work within the game without being a "buff-bot". At least no more than what the current classes can.


May I remind you that, prior to Wrath of the Lich King, Death Knights were warriors with this or that warlock ability.


We're not saying the ETC is the face of a bard. I'm saying he could be adapted into one. Just like Chen Stormstout got adapted as a monk.


Healing with spellsongs, spellcaster DPS with spellsongs, physical ranged with archery supported by some spellsong abilities, melee dps with spellsong support. That's four possible choices.

Fair enough.

It's me saying, it was brought up in the thread that that is the bard archetype and it would be what they would bring of new to the game. I don't think it can be achieved in the current game philosophy.
Tinker on the other hand, bring a unique gameplay style with turrets. They made it for Heroes, and it can easily be adapted. Wich is why i think Tinker is indeed an option that would enrich the game.

Now for the other stuff. You say spellsongs and spellcaster, but ETC and the group... they aren't bards. They are a rock group. They rock. Rock doesn't strike me as the soothing song for healing.
Also, you say they should use a bow? I was imagining a guitar axe, wich is what ETC uses in heroes.
Like, i don't want to shoot down the idea or anything. I just think it still needs work to be a credited option. So, design your WoW bard and share it with us bard fans.

[Illidari]

I personally feel that the Bard makes more sense as a profession than a class. That way you can make musical instruments that can be used like Trinkets and they give you buffs and enhancements. You could even play songs in towns and cities that benefit people passing by.

That's about as far as I'd take it. Definitely wouldn't make it a class. Future classes is more the realm of the Tinker or Necromancer.

[BedlamBros]

Then I'll just flat out say neither and not vote.

Posts like these make me wish I made the poll public.

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Well let's take a look shall we?

Brewmaster abilities WC3 and their WoW equivalent:
Breath of Fire >>>> Breath of Fire
Drunken Haze >>>>> Drunken Haze
Drunken Brawler >>>>> Elusive Brawler
Storm Earth Fire >>>>> Storm Earth Fire

Dark Ranger abilities WC3 and their WoW equivalent:
Silence >>>>> Silence
Black Arrow >>>>>> Black Arrow
Drain Life >>>>> Drain Life

Naga Sea Witch abilities WC3 and their WoW equivalent:
Mana Shield >>>> Mana Shield
Forked Lightning >>>>> Forked Lightning
Frost Arrow >>>>> Frost Arrow (NPC)

Pit Lord abilities WC3 and their WoW equivalent:
Rain of Fire >>>> Rain of Fire
Howl of Terror>>>> Howl of Terror
Doom >>>>> Doom

And then we have the Tinker (per you and @Darktbs' arguments)

Tinker abilities WC3 and their WoW equivalent:
Pocket Factory >>>>>> Goblin Bomb Dispenser
Cluster Rockets >>>>>> Goblin Mortar
Engineering Upgrade >>>>> Various Engineering enchants
Robo-Goblin >>>>>> Sky Golem

I tend to agree that the Tinker= Profession arguments are pretty stupid and ignorant. This list is just another example of how stupid that argument is.

[Rhamses]

They wouldn't be a race. They would be mortal races that were trained and empowered by the aspects.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonsworn

The best iteration I've seen of that concept has been Chromie and Alexstraza from HotS. I'd love to see a Dragonsworn concept using abilities from those 2 characters.

The class would HAVE to allow to transform into a dragon though.

[Teriz]

The best iteration I've seen of that concept has been Chromie and Alexstraza from HotS. I'd love to see a Dragonsworn concept using abilities from those 2 characters.

The class would HAVE to allow to transform into a dragon though.

Chromie and Alexstraza aren't Dragonsworn, they're actual dragons.

Dragonsworn are simply existing classes (Priests, Paladins, Mages, Druids, etc.) who have sworn loyalty to one of the dragon flights. I don't see that becoming a class.

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I tend to agree that the Tinker= Profession arguments are pretty stupid and ignorant. This list is just another example of how stupid that argument is.

Good! I'm happy that at least some people in this thread can read.

[Zyky]

Posts like these make me wish I made the poll public.

Don't need to make the poll public for everyone to see the vote results. Wouldn't change my opinion or anyone else who said neither in the thread. Bottom line is, we don't need more classes, Blizzard can't even properly balance what we have.

[lopus]

To be honest, I wish both classes where in the game, even though unholy DK is a kinda of necros they are mele and are just not the same, and yeah we have the profession engineering but because everyone has access to it they seem to always put a long cool down to anything you could use in combat or other kind of limits. and because of those 2 reasons I wish they would make tinker into a class , i magine it been a mail wearing class and maybe a mechspec could use mechs and totally change your tool kit depending on the mech you are using

[Killeyedascope]

Spellbreaker.

[Enkrypt]

LoL! Look at the poll, why would I need to convince you?

I would totally expect Tinkers to outweigh the poll. Adding a Necromancer/Summoner at this point would just be ridiculous. It would feel forced.

Perhaps not in the nicest way, I was trying to discern if you really had a solid idea for the class or if you were just cherry-picking small aspects of the game to prop up a poorly thought out concept. You've been at this for a long time, so that must mean you care about it a lot. Who am I to try to and diminish that.

In the end, if it's between Tinker and Necromancer, I'm all for Tinker. I just hope it's not limited to Goblins and Gnomes like DH are limited to BE/NE.

Apologies for the snarky remarks.

[Kiradyn]

Tinker and the Goblin alchemist, became two professions.

Even if that was true (I personally don't think it is, but whatever), it doesn't matter. Blizzard changed the Warlock class to bring Demon Hunters in the game, and Necromancer fans don't care if Blizzard changes the DK class to being their pet class into WoW.

So there really should be no problem changing a profession to bring a Tinker class into the game.

[Darktbs]

Even if that was true (I personally don't think it is, but whatever), it doesn't matter. Blizzard changed the Warlock class to bring Demon Hunters in the game, and Necromancer fans don't care if Blizzard changes the DK class to being their pet class into WoW.

So there really should be no problem changing a profession to bring a Tinker class into the game.

1-Just like everybody else saying a Necromancer should be a 4th spec i have the right to say that i prefer that the "tinker' class would be better using improving professions.Making each one more unique and interesting and perphaps giving a revamp to what professions are(dreamy but yet again 12 new specs is also dreamy)

2-I believe that those two turned into professions does a better job then as a class, because its simply way more open to creativity.They can create a bunch of stuff without the concern of being broken(or at least the grand majority of it), its acessible to ALL classes and Races and can be traded as the will and the catch up allow.

3-Almost Everything presented from the Tinker is just stuff that already exist on a profession and your arguments are "its just a profession" without offering almost anything new.

Take the bear form, changed into a Mech?Apparently new mechanic.

What you have a completly new playstyle but you dare summon undead or cast a Frost spell?You rip off.

[Kiradyn]

1-Just like everybody else saying a Necromancer should be a 4th spec i have the right to say that i prefer that the "tinker' class would be better using improving professions.Making each one more unique and interesting and perphaps giving a revamp to what professions are(dreamy but yet again 12 new specs is also dreamy)

People say "4th spec" because (outside of outlandish stuff) what people want out of the necromancer would fit right into the DK class.

2-I believe that those two turned into professions does a better job then as a class, because its simply way more open to creativity.They can create a bunch of stuff without the concern of being broken(or at least the grand majority of it), its acessible to ALL classes and Races and can be traded as the will and the catch up allow.

The problem with restricting technology to a profession is that you have several examples of Goblins and Gnomes fighting monsters, demons, and bosses inside mech suits, and a player Goblin and Gnome simply can't replicate that experience with the profession.

Think about it; Right now you can go to Goldshire, raise 2 skeleton minions, and kill a bunch of kobolds with your minions and various necro powers. I can't roll a Goblin or Gnome character, go to Goldshire and kill any Kobolds while inside a mech suit.

That's a pretty big difference.

3-Almost Everything presented from the Tinker is just stuff that already exist on a profession and your arguments are "its just a profession" without offering almost anything new.

The profession has crippling restrictions all over it's items and trinkets. Just being able to use a flamethrower that scales with your level and never runs out of charges would be something new.

[Darktbs]

People say "4th spec" because (outside of outlandish stuff) what people want out of the necromancer would fit right into the DK class.

And what you guys ask doesn't fit the profession why?Because you can't use the way you want?

The problem with restricting technology to a profession is that you have several examples of Goblins and Gnomes fighting monsters, demons, and bosses inside mech suits, and a player Goblin and Gnome simply can't replicate that experience with the profession.

Thats why we get quests/fights that let us do just that every now and then.

Think about it; Right now you can go to Goldshire, raise 2 skeleton minions, and kill a bunch of kobolds with your minions and various necro powers. I can't roll a Goblin or Gnome character, go to Goldshire and kill any Kobolds while inside a mech suit.

That's a pretty big difference.

Hey i know how to play that game too.

I can go to Goldshire right now and kill Kobolds with rockets, guns and explosives.

But i can't go to Golshire turn into a Lich ang kill everything in sight.

The profession has crippling restrictions all over it's items and trinkets. Just being able to use a flamethrower that scales with your level and never runs out of charges would be something new.

No it wouldn't Neltharion's Wrath is a thing.

It kinda fun to pull your guy's logic from time to time.

[Psykho]

ehhhh i dont know, the gilneans yes, but idk about worgen.

All the playable Worgen are Gilneans so

[FelPlague]

All the playable Worgen are Gilneans so

yes but there is a difference between the one human gilneans and gilnean worgens.
phsyical being the most.

[ercarp]

Tinker.

There's too much overlap with Necromancer and Death Knight. Tinker, however, stands out as something a little more unique and with the potential to have a really cool class fantasy, especially if they get those mech-suits that Mekkatorque got.