Expecting New Players to Raid Beyond LFR...

[Paperfox]

Oh look, yet another thread about hating the LFR.

If Blizz did follow your wishes and eliminated LFR, what would happen to the rest of the raiding tiers?
1. Would it be economical to produce content that only a small fraction of the customer-base will see?
2. Would those who are currently running the higher tiers be willing to help the LFR folks raid? At least explain the fights before....

[Allenseiei]

Yet people almost feel obligated to show off their unobtainable stuff, so you see them everywhere, especially in capitals.

They are even starting to lose their value to actual veterans because it's getting harder and harder to show all your unobtainable things at once, and older is always better, so... there's kind of no more room to progress.

So you are saying that the new player instead of trying to get the current stuff that will be hard to obtain or unobtainable in the future he will be discouraged and quit?
I can see that happening yes. People currently want the maximum rewards out of no effort and commitment. That sums about right most of the player base.

Although your post had a mild direcction that specially old players who never did anything worthwhile would benefit more from removing exclusive content than new players.

[Enkrypt]

I'm not necessarily saying it's something wrong, just saying you cant expect people do do stuff for the challenge alone.
A new player may not see it as interesting or something.

Are you not aware that the higher difficulty, more challenging content has better rewards? I would not raid Normal/Heroic/Mythic as much if it dropped LFR ilevel gear. Maybe once or twice for bragging rights, but I wouldn't do it weekly if it wasn't rewarding.

If the social camaraderie of raiding with a guild doesn't suit you, and you're not interested in higher level rewards and feeling of accomplishment, LFR is perfect for you. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

To claim Blizzard is wrong expecting players to do it based solely on "challenge alone" is a false pretense.

Honestly? The game used to be much harder and grindier. The game nowadays literally is a cakewalk outside of Mythic raiding and some abstract challenges. If a new player can't see it through the endgame in Legion, I don't believe it's the game's fault.

[Gorgodeus]

-There is this thing called "item level" but why do i need it? To be stronger? For what?
Item level is only useful for world pvp which is neglected in this game. You dont even need item level for BG's and Arenas because of the templates.

You would be incorrect. Ilvl is used to determine your template in instanced PvP. Higher ilvl = higher stats.

[A Chozo]

Sounds like they deserve to be stuck there, then

They'll never be "stuck". They'll go to the social media, procclaim that the game is lame, that the current design is bogus, and then they will give money to some other game where they are not gated by arbitrary barriers.

Shit design hurts the playerbase exactly because of this. New players that are not jaded by rose-tinted glasses are quick to come, and to go, >IF< the game design is shit. They are much more inclined to remain playing WoW if there weren't weird requirements into raiding.

[Coconut]

So you are saying that the new player instead of trying to get the current stuff that will be hard to obtain or unobtainable in the future he will be discouraged and quit?
I can see that happening yes. People currently want the maximum rewards out of no effort and commitment. That sums about right most of the player base.

Although your post had a mild direcction that specially old players who never did anything worthwhile would benefit more from removing exclusive content than new players.

Old casual players would benefit too, yes, though I wouldn't say "more" than new ones... maybe more in that they're more invested in the game and might want those specific rewards more than new players would, but the effect is still positive. They would still stay subscribed for more months chasing those things and overall feel more satisfied with the game.

People who aspire to absolutes in the reward system ignore the value of time. Time makes it that skilled players still get rewarded even if those rewards don't stay permanently exclusive - see mythic mounts. A mythic/old heroic player is going to have access to a special mount about 3 years earlier than a dedicated casual collector can start farming, and 4 or 5 years before plebes can "brute force" the drop by farming it on poorly geared alts. This applies to smaller scale content as well, where the gap closes faster, in a few months to a year, between major patches. For as long as Blizzard adds new content, there will always be things only the top players have access to.

If anything, it is better NOT to remove anything, because that encourages players to stay on top if they want to show off. The biggest reason raids are failing isn't that newbies don't raid, but rather that old players who already raided for several expansions or patches, had enough of the experience (not necessarily because it was bad, just personal preference) and decided to go casual. These veteran casuals know the drill and know why they made their choices, so they're harder to intimidate into the "raid or die" mindset than they used to be when they were younger and getting into raids for the first time.

Exclusive rewards (by witch I mean things that become unobtainable once the expansion or tier is over) encourage that sort of attitude by allowing players to whip up their treasures from the glory days and resting on their laurels instead of having to raid RIGHT NOW if they want to be envied. They also greatly encourage carry runs, which in turn devalues the reward because you can't really say for sure if the owner got it legit or bought it with gold or cash.

[ManiaCCC]

This is probably your only salient point, but I think there is still an internal self perpetuating desire "to get better gear" that goes along with playing any RPG, at least for most people.

While I don't have statistics on my hand, I would bet that most people just have these LFR item level items or some world boss items. I don't think there is some initiative to get better gear in WoW right now after the point, everything is super easy outside the world and what you can get from these super hard content challenges are same items with 300 more agility or so.

Before, if there was some challenge involved in MMOs, items were many times really unique. Unique look, with some unique abilities. These were items what people really wanted. Also, getting better gear helped them in everyday life in MMO because world itself was more dangerous..but now? I have this 910 iLevel gear from shards and some items from LFR and I melt anything in the world in second. Why should I need better gear? It doesn't look more interesting, it has no unique abilities or uses and I just don't need it as long as I don't care about raiding and Mythic+ .

I believe that charm of better gear was lost in the moment, when world just became obsolete or just super easy and items were normalized into very boring form. So..why bother?

[Peacemoon]

In some ways a lot was lost when players did not need in game friends and/or a guild to see the epic storylines and raids. But this is an argument we’ve had for years.

Really with premade group finder and flex difficulties I honestly believe we have finally outgrown LFR, and normal mode is sufficient as both an introductory step and the right level of difficulty.

[Jastall]

What is this obsession with "new players"?

It's often a form of concern trolling where the poster tries to hide their bias in regards of their issue du jour behind a veil of ''someone think of the new players!!''. When really all they want is to bitch about said issue du jour and don't give a fuck what newbies actually do.

LFR is there for the same reason the Easy difficulty, or the casual automatched Quick Play option in multiplayer games, is there in almost every game nowadays. Not ever player has the same skill or the same commitment, so the game adjusts itself in consequence. Even in games like Dark Souls which don't have difficulty levels there are ways to make the experience far easier. Not sure why WoW should be immune to it.

[grandgato]

Really with premade group finder and flex difficulties I honestly believe we have finally outgrown LFR, and normal mode is sufficient as both an introductory step and the right level of difficulty.

Nah. The Premade Group tool is fine for what it is, but it's not a substitute for LFR. There needs to be some way for players who can't or don't want to commit to organized raiding to experience the raids while they are current. Especially with as much of the story that is presented through them.

[Tydrane]

I only ever bother with LFR because there are more fun and interesting things to do in WoW, IMO. Beyond that, raid patch cycles just seem like a hamster wheel, you grind away at these long and boring fights in such large groups that any one person's contributions are practically irrelevant - that never felt good to me. At the end you get loot drops that you may or may not be eligible for due to some arcane loot rule list laid out by the leaders of your guild, so right from the get-go you might be up for a slog of several hours in which you will receive nothing.

I guess my two main objections to organised raiding, the group finder and guilds generally is that I think it's a gross overestimation of the civility of strangers on the internet, and a foolish investment in that belief by granting some players power to exercise over others. I'm just choosing to opt out of that toxic part of the game.

[Kyriexo]

new players who level to play with their friends usually play more than filthy introverted autistic lfr
lfr is for solo players usually with some sort of social disability

Pretty much this. I've seen people complain in legion that the game doesn't offer single player content and you are forced to group up with others........not a special snowflake but the most unique snowflake under the sun.

[Ozyorkbourne]

I'm not necessarily saying it's something wrong, just saying you cant expect people do do stuff for the challenge alone.
A new player may not see it as interesting or something.

It isnt for the challenge.

Doing higher raid content rewards extremely better gear, transmog and if you do well enough, mounts (Argus mythic and the raid meta achi)

If you PvP at a higher arena rating, you get to play more competitive and intense games.

If neither PvE, PvP or RP interest you then find another game. The game needs to cater to those who enjoy it, not to those who don't. As an MMO you cna pick and choose the content you do.

[Charge me Doctor]

new players often end up in a guild (of some sort), and people there usually give them incentive to do content together

[Ozyorkbourne]

It's not just about new players, though. I know many people who started playing years ago and are in a similar situation as described (and I'm one of them). There's not much reason for these people to go beyond LFR aside from "the challenge."

Maybe there's a transmog set or something similar, but it would require many runs.
The only GOOD incentives I remember seeing were mounts such as the moose in the end of HFC.

The moose wasn't a good incentive to raid. It was a good incentive to pay 20k gold, same as Argus and the arcane phoenix. Go on, what sort of incentives do you 'remember' and what do you think is a viable, reasonable incentive that people actually want?

[Delekii]

In some ways a lot was lost when players did not need in game friends and/or a guild to see the epic storylines and raids. But this is an argument we’ve had for years.

Really with premade group finder and flex difficulties I honestly believe we have finally outgrown LFR, and normal mode is sufficient as both an introductory step and the right level of difficulty.

It's not an argument; it's a foregone conclusion. When there was no LFR, functionally nobody (as a percentage of the subscribed players) raided. At the time that it was installed, there was a quote from a dev that went something like "a few thousand people saw kelthuzad, millions saw deathwing".

There will always be people who want to do LFR and don't want to do normal. Those people pay Blizzard money. LFR is a low-cost high-reward function with zero chance of ever being removed.

Frankly, I personally feel that the LFG tool is far more damaging to static raiding groups than LFR ever could hope to be. Because of the perception of ease that people have around finding fillers for groups these days, it has become more and more painful finding groups looking for players that don't have absurd requirements and poisonous public faces. I'm sure they exist and I'm sure there's lots of them, but if my personal experiences are anything to go by, it's simply not worth the hassle of trying to find a permanent group, and looking for weekly groups in LFG feels like you are constantly prostituting yourself on a slutty back-alley. It's not worth the trouble.

This is how I feel, speaking as someone who has raided a lot in the past and does feel confidant in my abilities to learn mechanics and what not; I can't imagine how someone new to the game feels trying to break into the club.

I was an avid user of the previous iteration of what is now the lfg tool (I can't even remember what the addon is called anymore?), and I used to think it was the bees knees; it still is for a lot of what it used to be used for (transmog runs and finding people for quirky stuff that nobody usually does), but the way it has been applied to literally everything I feel like is actually quite damaging.

[clevin]

It's not just about new players, though. I know many people who started playing years ago and are in a similar situation as described (and I'm one of them). There's not much reason for these people to go beyond LFR aside from "the challenge."

This is me. I raided and led raids from TBC through LK, skipped cata and then again in MoP and a little in WoD. But I only LFR now despite the fact that my guild raids two nights doing normal and heroic. They could probably use me and since it's N and H, it's flexible size. So, why don't I run with them?

Three reasons:

1) I've seen the content. Yes, things will be tuned higher and some mechanics might be a little different but... I've seen everything. This means I don't have the incentive of wanting to see the end boss fights etc and needing to do something organized to do that.

2) If I join a raid night, I'm there for 3 hours. If I'm bored, would rather go watch some TV or read a book an hour in, I can't really just leave. In LFR, I could. Likewise, if I come one week then not for a couple, or one night and not others, people will likely view me as unreliable ('oh you just want to get carried and get some gear'). If I LFR, I can bail after a boss. I can bail during trash. I can do one wing and stop, do 2 wings or do everything in one big session. Or I can not bother at all for a week, a month or ever again.

3) Related, if I want to do a little raiding on Tuesday, I can. Not in the mood but want to do some raiding Saturday afternoon? Can do that instead. I'm not tied to guild raid nights. Conversely, if I signup for a raid on Thursday and a friend wants to grab a beer, I don't have to either blow off the raid or my friend.

Could I PUG? Yeah, sure. But I'm 936 because I don't chase gear for item level's sake, so some people will not invite for that reason and, frankly, I don't want to put up with the BS that a lot of PUGs seem to carry.

Bottom line is this - the only reasons for me to raid at any level are to see the content or to do something with friends (or both). All of my longtime game friends are gone (I've been in the guild for awhile but am not really close to anyone who's left). So that leaves seeing the content and we're back to square one. I can do that in LFR. Hence, no real reason to do organized raiding.

[MoanaLisa]

Right now the game is designed to "do whatever you like".

As design objectives go, having your players enjoy your game as they do whatever pleases them is a pretty good one.

[Kubiszot]

And why they should raid beyond LFR? Who said it about "new players"?
People complained that there is no other "end game" content besides raiding. Now in Legion we have more options. I love to raid but since I have day time job and kids, I can't afford to spend 4 hours for three days to complete raid with my guild.
I play since vanilla, I have friends in game, I have cool guild, they completed some mythic bosses. I finished some bosses on hc and I'm cool with it.
I don't feel the pressure that I should or have to raid beyond LFR.
I can do wq, timewalking dungeons, invasion points, farm legendaries, do LFR and this is my game. I don't have to raid to get my purples and be competitive on casual level. This is my challenge.
There are many players like me who like to play solo - it doesn't mean we are some kind of braindead outsiders who are destroying this game because we stopped at LFR level.
Noone should expect that we're going to push it beyond LFR.

[HuxNeva]

Some food for thought:
There's about 70K players that are Mythic raiders, 450K that are primarily HC, and another 500K N focused. Round it to around 1M total 'beyond LFR'.
Then who knows how many LFR players there are and how many never set foot in a raid instance at all. This isn't tracked.

Statistically, a fairly significant percentage of new players that stick with the game will eventually end up raiding beyond

There are no 'expectations' for a new player beyond that they hopefully will have fun and stay subbed.