Necromancer vs Tinker: Which class would be better for the game?

[Ielenia]

No, because Displacer Beast is a teleport. A mech boosting around would have an additional ability to hit targets.

So you're making up abilities and skills on the fly?

A bear blowing itself up doesn't fit the theme of Druids.

Just because you can't find any reason doesn't mean Blizzard can't.

Leap, not a charge. AoE damage, not single target damage.

Not if Blizzard deems it too OP considering the rest of the class' kit.

Priests tend to enjoy it.

Drop a ground-based attack on a priest Levitating and he takes damage and the levitate is dispelled.

So all ranged attacks in WoW are the same?

Are we talking gameplay, or model skins? Just to make sure.

Let me know when they get such an ability. Until they do, they can't do it.

Let me know when the player tinker class gets such an ability. Until they do, they can't do it. See? Two can play this game.

It's time for another review for the Piloted Combat Module:

It's time for another goalpost moving, you mean.

Man, that's so much like having a mech-based class.

A pity for you that was not the question, right?

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They can with items. Any class can do anything with items, so that's a moot point. It's like saying we don't need another class that can use ranged weapons because anyone can equip a Bolt Gun.

Your comparison fails because your original examples can easily be reproduced and have class-like utility, using engineering. Rocket Boosts for example, is just as useful as a rogue's Sprint, for example. An engineer's cloak glider is just as useful as the DH's glide ability. At times more useful because it's much faster.

Merely an element of gameplay, like unlimited ammo, traps, and bombs for Hunters or unlimited Kegs and bottles for Monks.

Because simple traps and wooden kegs are the same thing as big, technological advanced mechs. That's like saying a rock by the riverbed is the same thing as Stormwind's castle.

[Immitis]

Title says it all. Which class do you think would be a better addition to the class lineup, and which do you think would hinder the existing classes? On one side you have the Tinker, old favorite still waiting to get pulled off the bench. On the other, you have the new upstart that's gaining momentum on various forums and blogs.

Oh, and sorry, there is no "neither" option in this poll.

I'm sorry, but in what world is necromancer the new upstart? people have requested necromancer since vanilla, maybe not in anywhere near as much quantity as death knights, brewmasters, demon hunters, or dark rangers but its always been there.

tinker didnt become a big requested thing until mop when a feud between me and teriz over demon hunters vs tinkers spawned multiple threads.

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A little OT, but if they release a Tinker class I hope its not a hero class. I think the DH class suffered because it had such a high starting level.

I doubt we will ever get a non hero class again. blizzard said one of the reasons they felt monk didnt catch on with the community was the fact people had to level it from level 1 again. i think if they were doing it over again monks would be a hero class.

[Teriz]

So you're making up abilities and skills on the fly?

You mean like you did with the exploding Guardian Druid?

Not if Blizzard deems it too OP considering the rest of the class' kit.

Herioc Leap tends to work out just fine.

Drop a ground-based attack on a priest Levitating and he takes damage and the levitate is dispelled.

I was saying that Priest tend to enjoy Levitate just fine despite its limited use.

Are we talking gameplay, or model skins? Just to make sure.

We're talking about projectiles being considered different in any other case except when it applies to Tinkers (for some reason).

Let me know when the player tinker class gets such an ability. Until they do, they can't do it. See? Two can play this game.

Except that isn't the game we're playing. The argument is what makes a Bear Druid different than a potential Tinker class. Saying that Bears could get a Flamethrower ability (when there's little indication that Bears would get such an ability) is ridiculous

It's time for another goalpost moving, you mean.


A pity for you that was not the question, right?

Hey look, here's a video about whether or not it's worth it to craft Reaves:



TDLR: It's not.

Your comparison fails because your original examples can easily be reproduced and have class-like utility, using engineering. Rocket Boosts for example, is just as useful as a rogue's Sprint, for example. An engineer's cloak glider is just as useful as the DH's glide ability. At times more useful because it's much faster.

It's not as useful as Rogue's Sprint because it shares a CD with potions, and the duration varies. We also shouldn't forget that the Boost can fail and deal damage to you.

In short, the Rogue ability is superior in every way.

Because simple traps and wooden kegs are the same thing as big, technological advanced mechs. That's like saying a rock by the riverbed is the same thing as Stormwind's castle.

All of it is equally illogical. A Tinker class shouldn't have to be more logical than any other WoW class that bends common sense.

[Deleted]

I voted tinker, but in fact I would love to have bards in the game. Necromancer is already covered by unholy DK.

[Ielenia]

You mean like you did with the exploding Guardian Druid?

So I can't, but you can?

Herioc Leap tends to work out just fine.

Except a warrior doesn't drop ranged turrets, have a flamethrower, can fly to avoid ground-based abilities or are ranged. I'll say it again: not if Blizzard deems it too OP considering the rest of the class' kit.

We're talking about projectiles being considered different in any other case except when it applies to Tinkers (for some reason).

Funny, because I don't see you extending the same courtesy to bards, when we talk about healing or spellcasting DPS using spellsongs.

Except that isn't the game we're playing. The argument is what makes a Bear Druid different than a potential Tinker class.

No, that's you strawmaning the argument.

Hey look, here's a video about whether or not it's worth it to craft Reaves:

Hey look, the same goalpost moving you've been repeating for the last several posts!

It's not as useful as Rogue's Sprint because it shares a CD with potions, and the duration varies. We also shouldn't forget that the Boost can fail and deal damage to you.

In short, the Rogue ability is superior in every way.

Yeah... all classes have the rogue's Sprint, right? It's not like having an extra sprint ability would be useful in the outside world (y'know, like you said about priests and Levitate) or in dungeons, or in PvP, right? Also I noticed you completely missed (or ignored) the cloak glider bit.

All of it is equally illogical. A Tinker class shouldn't have to be more logical than any other WoW class that bends common sense.

No, it's not. It's one thing to simply assume the hunter stockpiles traps and bullets when they visit a city. Or a monk stockpiles beer kegs. But a whole mech? Something that, by definition, would technically cost an arm and a leg to gather all the parts and it's not simple to assemble?

[Maljinwo]

Besides riding a mech and all, what else could Tinkers do to grow apart from other classes?

A Heat/Energy Cells resource bar?
Maybe abilities would grow stronger as your Heat grows but as a trade off, you have to cool down before getting to 100 Heat.
Energy Cells would be a limited resource that you'd have to manually reload using an ability, so that you should get a rotation that makes every cell count?

[Teriz]

So I can't, but you can?

A mech boosting into a target and causing damage makes more sense than an ability that causes a guardian druid to explode.

Except a warrior doesn't drop ranged turrets, have a flamethrower, can fly to avoid ground-based abilities or are ranged. I'll say it again: not if Blizzard deems it too OP considering the rest of the class' kit.

I don't believe Blizzard would have any problem balancing it.

Funny, because I don't see you extending the same courtesy to bards, when we talk about healing or spellcasting DPS using spellsongs.

The problem with Bards is that there's no legitimate NPC or lore character to base them on. Also the only Bard "spellsong" showed up in Cataclysm, and was merely a combination of 2 Priest abilities.

No, that's you strawmaning the argument.

Where's the strawman?

Hey look, the same goalpost moving you've been repeating for the last several posts!

Nah, just pointing out that a worthless Engineering device doesn't make up for the lack of a tech class in WoW.

Yeah... all classes have the rogue's Sprint, right? It's not like having an extra sprint ability would be useful in the outside world (y'know, like you said about priests and Levitate) or in dungeons, or in PvP, right? Also I noticed you completely missed (or ignored) the cloak glider bit.

You said that it was just as useful as Rogues sprint. Clearly with its huge amount of drawbacks, it's simply not as useful as a class abilty.

No, it's not. It's one thing to simply assume the hunter stockpiles traps and bullets when they visit a city. Or a monk stockpiles beer kegs. But a whole mech? Something that, by definition, would technically cost an arm and a leg to gather all the parts and it's not simple to assemble?

Again, it would fall under a convention of gameplay. No different than a Hunter carrying millions of Grenades, Ammo, and traps, or a Monk carrying limitless Kegs and bottles.

This is merely another example of your double standard regarding Tinkers.

[Enkrypt]

*snip*

Man, I think you might actually have me convinced. My biggest gripe would be the racial attachment (Goblin/Gnome), so if they find a way around that assuming that's even a thing, I could possibly see myself playing one of these after reading your post.

Thanks for putting that together.

[Thimagryn]

They can with items. Any class can do anything with items, so that's a moot point. It's like saying we don't need another class that can use ranged weapons because anyone can equip a Bolt Gun

Except you didn't say Bolt Guns, you said rocket launchers which already exist in Engineering. Prior to Faerie Fire dealing damage, rockets were a Feral Druids only ranged pulling option in bearform, so it got a lot of use outside of shits and giggles.

I'm all for Tinkers but you can't go around saying bears can't use engineering just to make a point.

[drongo44]

Tinkers would make a pretty excellent hero class. A spec that customizes mechs, a spec that has a Gazlowe-like backpack, a spec that throws around healing or support devices. Give them to goblins and gnomes so people actually roll them.

[Darktbs]

The problem with Bards is that there's no legitimate NPC or lore character to base them on. Also the only Bard "spellsong" showed up in Cataclysm, and was merely a combination of 2 Priest abilities.

.

Thats nothing new, npcs generally have generic spells simply because "Why make a new generic spell for a npc when there is plenty of existing ones?"

Thats why so many npcs use Frostbolt, Unholy Frenzy, Frenzy/Berserk etc.

[Teriz]

Except you didn't say Bolt Guns, you said rocket launchers which already exist in Engineering. Prior to Faerie Fire dealing damage, rockets were a Feral Druids only ranged pulling option in bearform, so it got a lot of use outside of shits and giggles.

I'm all for Tinkers but you can't go around saying bears can't use engineering just to make a point.

I'm not saying that Bears can't use engineering, I'm saying you can't use engineering as a crutch to give Bears abilities they really don't have. For example, what's the main difference between Hunters and Druids? Hunters can use ranged weapons and Bears can't. Using your argument, Bears can use ranged weapons just as well as Hunters can.

[Thimagryn]

I'm not saying that Bears can't use engineering, I'm saying you can't use engineering as a crutch to give Bears abilities they really don't have. For example, what's the main difference between Hunters and Druids? Hunters can use ranged weapons and Bears can't. Using your argument, Bears can use ranged weapons just as well as Hunters can.

The main difference is one shapeshifts and one doesn't. Ranged weapons doesn't really mean anything since that's just a limitation of gameplay and not lore, there's nothing stopping a Druid from picking up a bow in lore but you'll not likely see a Hunter turn into a Bear.

Tyrande is a Priestess and uses a bow as well as a Hunter can. I honestly don't see why a Druid couldn't. Just like saying X class can ride a mech makes em special when in reality any class can ride a mech; and we have quests and mounts to support all of that.

We don't need a class to show us what other classes can't do. The reason we should have a new class is to fulfill a fantasy. That's why the whole argument of 'no room for Demon Hunters' didn't fly, because it was never about what other classes could or couldn't do. A Demon Hunter fits in the class lineup because people want to play as one, period. Same goes for Tinkers and Necromancers, both.

All in all, don't bring what other classes can or can't do into the reasons for having a Tinker class. Every class needs to stand on their own regardless of what any other class has because you aren't playing an RTS, you're playing an RPG.

[Teriz]

Thats nothing new, npcs generally have generic spells simply because "Why make a new generic spell for a npc when there is plenty of existing ones?"

Thats why so many npcs use Frostbolt, Unholy Frenzy, Frenzy/Berserk etc.

Certainly, but we typically also have WC3 abilities to pull from to counteract the generic spells. We don't have that for Bards.

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All in all, don't bring what other classes can or can't do into the reasons for having a Tinker class. Every class needs to stand on their own regardless of what any other class has because you aren't playing an RTS, you're playing an RPG.

I didn't. I was answering a question about what sets a Tinker apart from a Guardian Druid gameplay-wise.

[Thimagryn]

I didn't. I was answering a question about what sets a Tinker apart from a Guardian Druid gameplay-wise.

And I pointed out that your examples were bad considering a Guardian Druid could half of the things you mentioned because of Professions. You literally listed profession mechanics as a part of your argument of how Tinkers are different, so your example failed to separate itself from Engineering.

I mean it's like if I said a Shieldbearer class is different from Warriors and Paladins because they can craft their own shields and augment them with spikes. Guess what Blacksmithing already lets you do?

[Darktbs]

Certainly, but we typically also have WC3 abilities to pull from to counteract the generic spells. We don't have that for Bards.

Thats a good thing, we could have the first 100% original class from WoW.

[Thimagryn]

Thats a good thing, we could have the first 100% original class from WoW.

Honestly, that's what I'm looking forward to seeing more than anything. It's about time we get something that is unique to WoW.

[Cyero]

A little OT, but if they release a Tinker class I hope its not a hero class. I think the DH class suffered because it had such a high starting level.

IF they start the tinker class as a hero class I hope it starts at a low level between 20-50 so that we won't have the legion problem

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Honestly, that's what I'm looking forward to seeing more than anything. It's about time we get something that is unique to WoW.

Like a Tinker class! we don't have a class that focuses on technology as their weapon.

[Thimagryn]

Like a Tinker class! we don't have a class that focuses on technology as their weapon.

Tinkers appear in Warcraft 3, just like every other class we have. I said something unique to WoW.

Dragonsworn would be my personal pick.

[Teriz]

And I pointed out that your examples were bad considering a Guardian Druid could half of the things you mentioned because of Professions. You literally listed profession mechanics as a part of your argument of how Tinkers are different, so your example failed to separate itself from Engineering.

I mean it's like if I said a Shieldbearer class is different from Warriors and Paladins because they can craft their own shields and augment them with spikes. Guess what Blacksmithing already lets you do?

How were they bad examples when you didn't address any of them?

There's no Engineering item that causes the Bear to eject and Self-Destruct. There's no Engineering item that allows a Bear to Hover in place. There's no Engineering item that allows a Bear to leap to a location and cause damage on impact. There's no Engineering item that allows a Bear to boost to one spot to another repeatedly.

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Thats a good thing, we could have the first 100% original class from WoW.

Not really. Classes tend to be themed around expansions and the cover of that expansion showcases a representative from the class . Without a connection to WoW that's not happening.