So playable dwarfs have no dignity ?

[Lupinemancer]

Nightbornes are just a bunch of whimps. They get 1 person distrusting them, which she have reason for, and they run crying to the Horde, like little kids who is upset they their mother said no.
Guess that's why they fit in with the Horde.

[Combatbutler]

You know, that was Sarcasm, ...

And everyone forgets how the Alliance functions and flat out demand blood despite the consequences such actions may bring, it is true that Moira screwed up by keeping Anduin in Ironforge, but it was not reason enough to actually sneak in and kill the rightful heir to the throne.

People focus on merely one small piece of the entire situation.

The city was full of dark Irons
There were crown Loyalists
Disgruntled people
Normal people
the population in general was not willing to take up arms against Moira
Moira was trying to reform the city so that the clans would live together
Made the utterly moronic decision to keep Anduin around
Harming him would have undone everything she build

And then there are the perenoldes, who betrayed the Alliance to the Horde during the second war and were neither executed nor stripped away from their lands, since they were sovereign leaders.


Now if you consider all of this is it truly a good idea to outright kill Moira instead of politically maneuvering her into a position in which she realizes her boundaries instead of brute force?

[Wildmoon]

And people don't consider global politics and Alliance history into this. Just going on about a hostage without looking at the bigger picture.

You are the one who absolutely fail to see the big picture though. To say taking someone of that importance hostage and just return the person back without severely punishment does not really fly in global politics when the nation which your hostage come from have enough power and can afford to punish you.

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And everyone forgets how the Alliance functions and flat out demand blood despite the consequences such actions may bring, it is true that Moira screwed up by keeping Anduin in Ironforge, but it was not reason enough to actually sneak in and kill the rightful heir to the throne.

People focus on merely one small piece of the entire situation.

The city was full of dark Irons
There were crown Loyalists
Disgruntled people
Normal people
the population in general was not willing to take up arms against Moira
Moira was trying to reform the city so that the clans would live together
Made the utterly moronic decision to keep Anduin around
Harming him would have undone everything she build

And then there are the perenoldes, who betrayed the Alliance to the Horde during the second war and were neither executed nor stripped away from their lands, since they were sovereign leaders.


Now if you consider all of this is it truly a good idea to outright kill Moira instead of politically maneuvering her into a position in which she realizes her boundaries instead of brute force?

You are confusing Varian's legitimacy with history and consequences. They have nothing to do with each other. For example, Moira's crime does not lessen in degree just because Perenold got away with it. Perenold could be legitimately punished by any nation within the AA. The fact that no one did it has no bearing on the justification.

[Combatbutler]

It certianly can't be if SW is to have any integrity at all. It's not only the improtance of the ally but the face of SW as well.

He could have gotten her to listen quite simply with just one line, we all know how precious children are and I dare to pull that stunt again and you will know the loss of ones child.

They did not have the power or they did not bother to. It had nothing to do with authority. At that point Perenold already broke any obligation he had with the AA. If one nation was to kill the Perenoldes then it would not be percieved as a treason but any member of the AA. It was just that none of them bother to do it.

There were Alliance peace keeping troops in Alterac of course they had the man power to end the royal line, but they did not despite their outright betrayal, because they were a sovereign ruling family.

Future consequences can not be accurately predicted in the first place. They would have no bearing whatsoever on Varian's justification. Varian would have only made a bad choice on the ground of consequence in your version of future events but his choices would still be legitimate. With Anduin's advise Varian made the good decision while still demonstrating the power of his nation by showing that he was prepared to punish severely those who threatened his son.

And magni would have been well within his right to march on Stormwind and slaughter every human he finds, after all Varian did start a blood feud? Do people actually consider the consequences of actually killing such high ranking figures? It is never that easy, they are not your random peasant, whose lives barely matter in this universe, such things need to be handled with delicacy not brute force.

[Magnagarde]

The dwarves have always paid the price for whatever wrong they've done. They're a race that cherishes battle and valor in it. They don't hide behind arcane bubbles or abandon the rest of their people. Thalyssra and her people were doing the wrong thing and were on the wrong side for ten thousand years and even after that.

Tyrande was right to call Thalyssra out for her inaction and then the fact that the majority of her people fought for the Burning Legion. If dwarves despise one thing, then it is cowardice.

As someone who plays Horde, I'm disappointed we're getting another elf race and a coward one at that, with no established lore principles.

[LanToaster]

I disagree, especially considering all the circumstances and the possible inclinations a city full of dark irons, crown loyalists normal people and a city under lock down, it was already a powder keg now you have someone sneak in and kill the rightful heir to the throne and then imagine one day Magni coming back to learn Varian had killed his one and only child, could have been fun though all out war between dwarves and humans, you don't see that too often.

Okey, Lets see the Circumstances you Outlined (I didn´t read the Book, so enlighten me if I get that wrong)

You have the City of your Allies. (Bronzebeard Dwarfes)
Full of Dark Iron Dwarfes, which are Hostile to all of these: Alliance, Wildhammers, Bronzebeards, and Horde.
You have the ONLY heir to the king of Stormwind held Hostage, by these Crazy idiots who summoned Ragnaros in the First Place.
Currently led by the "rightful heir", who should be lucky to not have been executed in the first place for treason.
(You know, I would consider it treason to go of and marry the enemy, and Honestly. This alone should forfeit her the right to inherit the throne).

And, you seriously expect Varian to just go there: "Hey, you know. You have my Son. Not Cool, would be really great if you could return him to me"

For me, it looks more like Varian should have not only been concerned about his son, but rather having another Enemy close by. (He cant possibly know if Moira didn´t plan to seize the Throne and be an Enemy or Friend. And Taking his Son hostage, and seizing the city of your Allies with their Enemies suggests the former)

It was hard to tell, I think someone here was legitimately trying to make that argument.

Thats why I said it. Just a few posts before I made fun of that.

[Hyral]

And everyone forgets how the Alliance functions and flat out demand blood despite the consequences such actions may bring, it is true that Moira screwed up by keeping Anduin in Ironforge, but it was not reason enough to actually sneak in and kill the rightful heir to the throne.

I think you'll make an even stronger argument by pointing out the book itself says that is not the right thing to do.

The whole point of that scene is to show Varian as a flawed person struggling with the remnants of his Lo'gosh personality. Anduin is the one to stop him, someone is who was constantly used as a surrogate for Varian's conscience during that period of his character development. If anyone is trying to argue Varian was right for trying to kill Moira they entirely missed the point of the scene, the books, and all of Varian's story.

[Combatbutler]

You are the one who absolutely fail to see the big picture though. To say taking someone of that importance hostage and just return the person back without severely punishment does not really fly in global politics when the nation which your hostage come from have enough power and can afford to punish you.

I ma not arguing for no punishment I am saying what Varian did was utterly moronic from a political standpoint.

You are confusing Varian's legitimacy with history and consequences. They have nothing to do with each other. For example, Moira's crime does not lessen in degree just because Perenold got away with it. Perenold could be legitimately punished by any nation within the AA. The fact that no one did it has no bearing on the justification.

If someone insists on his right, despite the fact we do know ruling families were left in relative peace for worse and it possibly costing tens of thousands of lives, even though there are better tools at his disposal to solve such a crisis then by all means he was behaving like an imbecile.

[Magnagarde]

Okey, Lets see the Circumstances you Outlined (I didn´t read the Book, so enlighten me if I get that wrong)

You have the City of your Allies. (Bronzebeard Dwarfes)
Full of Dark Iron Dwarfes, which are Hostile to all of these: Alliance, Wildhammers, Bronzebeards, and Horde.
You have the ONLY heir to the king of Stormwind held Hostage, by these Crazy idiots who summoned Ragnaros in the First Place.
Currently led by the "rightful heir", who should be lucky to not have been executed in the first place for treason.
(You know, I would consider it treason to go of and marry the enemy, and Honestly. This alone should forfeit her the right to inherit the throne).

And, you seriously expect Varian to just go there: "Hey, you know. You have my Son. Not Cool, would be really great if you could return him to me"

For me, it looks more like Varian should have not only been concerned about his son, but rather having another Enemy close by. (He cant possibly know if Moira didn´t plan to seize the Throne and be an Enemy or Friend. And Taking his Son hostage, and seizing the city of your Allies with their Enemies suggests the former)


Thats why I said it. Just a few posts before I made fun of that.

The Dark Iron dwarves are to the other dwarves what the Nightborne are to the night elves, basically. The actions of the Nightborne are far worse in comparison considering the enemy they've sided with.

[Combatbutler]

Okey, Lets see the Circumstances you Outlined (I didn´t read the Book, so enlighten me if I get that wrong)
You have the City of your Allies. (Bronzebeard Dwarfes)

None of which wanted to see Moira actually dead they accepted her, but were not satisfied with her full force approach

Full of Dark Iron Dwarfes, which are Hostile to all of these: Alliance, Wildhammers, Bronzebeards, and Horde.

At the time they were not, they were citizens of the city, which is precisely what was Moira was aiming for. Dwarven unity.

You have the ONLY heir to the king of Stormwind held Hostage, by these Crazy idiots who summoned Ragnaros in the First Place.

No you have him as the hostage of Moira only daughter of good friend of Varians

Currently led by the "rightful heir", who should be lucky to not have been executed in the first place for treason.

Again the Alliance has no authority on such matters, see Royal family of Alterac

(You know, I would consider it treason to go of and marry the enemy, and Honestly. This alone should forfeit her the right to inherit the throne).

Magni loves his daughter and wanted her to return one day and so she remained heir.

And, you seriously expect Varian to just go there: "Hey, you know. You have my Son. Not Cool, would be really great if you could return him to me"

No I expect him to think, something he clearly didn't and his original plan would have engulfed Ironforge in a bloody civil war. The fact is he didn't even bother to go there himself before to get Moira to see just how thin the ice is she is currently walking on. Instead he decided to murder her.

For me, it looks more like Varian should have not only been concerned about his son, but rather having another Enemy close by. (He cant possibly know if Moira didn´t plan to seize the Throne and be an Enemy or Friend. And Taking his Son hostage, and seizing the city of your Allies with their Enemies suggests the former)

Varian didn't think that was the whole point and he screwed up if it hadn't been for his son his actions would have destroyed one of the closest allies of Stormwind. Anduin even suggested the resulting feud might have engulfed the entire alliance.

[Wildmoon]

He could have gotten her to listen quite simply with just one line, we all know how precious children are and I dare to pull that stunt again and you will know the loss of ones child.

That's within a range of actions he could take legitimately but to me that's distasteful and uncharacteristic of Varian. It still does not mean killing Moira was not a legitimate option.

There were Alliance peace keeping troops in Alterac of course they had the man power to end the royal line, but they did not despite their outright betrayal, because they were a sovereign ruling family.

I already made the point. People did not do it not because they recognized the line as a member of the AA they had obligations to anymore. Even if they did it will have no bearing on Varian's justification too because it will just mean that the old AA failed to uphold the integrity of their AA in the first place.

And magni would have been well within his right to march on Stormwind and slaughter every human he finds, after all Varian did start a blood feud? Do people actually consider the consequences of actually killing such high ranking figures? It is never that easy, they are not your random peasant, whose lives barely matter in this universe, such things need to be handled with delicacy not brute force.

Mangi's right you percieve will likely not be perceived by the other nations of the AA. Nor would I think Magni would take that action. Everyone would know Moira digged her own grave. You are mixing things up again with your bolded lines.

[Shibito]

Nightbornes are just a bunch of whimps. They get 1 person distrusting them, which she have reason for, and they run crying to the Horde, like little kids who is upset they their mother said no.
Guess that's why they fit in with the Horde.

Still better than bowing to the human overlords with anime haircuts and mary sue gay-kings

[derpkitteh]

it just kinda further proves the point that no race in the alliance matters but humans.

it's ridiculous and i wish it would change.

[LanToaster]

The whole point of that scene is to show Varian as a flawed person struggling with the remnants of his Lo'gosh personality. Anduin is the one to stop him, someone is who was constantly used as a surrogate for Varian's conscience during that period of his character development. If anyone is trying to argue Varian was right for trying to kill Moira they entirely missed the point of the scene, the books, and all of Varian's story.

Are you Implying that people can make suboptimal Choices and do things that wont work out in the end? Even in Fiction?!

Oh my God.

But jokes aside, you are right in no way he is right for outright killing her. A Better (more elegant) vengeful solution would be an assassination that wont be Traced back to him. (Not Political better)

But the point is for me, I can relate to the actions Varian took. (What you describe here) Might not been the best action, but it certainly isn´t the worst.
Because: Dwarfes are still part of the Alliance, and even the Dark Irons officially join in.
I could very well see, if varian didn´t intervene and enforced the Council, we might have a bigger Problem with Power Hungry Dark Iron Dwarfes as our Enemies.
Theres a reason why the Wildhammers and DarkIrons left IronForge in the first place. And while the Wildhammers were still rather friendly, the DarkIrons were the opposite. And I doubt Moira alone would´ve changed that.

[Combatbutler]

What I said was a logical statement. Holding someone hostage presents all the possibilities on the table. Varian could not know what Moira was trying to build nor did it matter to his decision. The act was such a great threat in itself.

Is it the logical course of action to dispose of someone, causing a war, even though you can get them in line with no casualties at all? The answer is no of course not.

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That's within a range of actions he could take legitimately but to me that's distasteful and uncharacteristic of Varian. It still does not mean killing Moira was not a legitimate option.

Yeah lets rather drag someone from her chamber, in nightgown and execute her on the streets of ironforge. While ensuring her son will come for vengeance at one point.

I already made the point. People did not do it not because they recognized the line as a member of the AA they had obligations to anymore. Even if they did it will have no bearing on Varian's justification too because it will just mean that the old AA failed to uphold the integrity of their AA in the first place.

And I disagree with this

Mangi's right you percieve will likely not be perceived by the other nations of the AA. Nor would I think Magni would take that action. Everyone would know Moira digged her own grave. You are mixing things up again with your bolded lines.

Magni despised the dark Iron and his daughter ran of with one had a kid with one and he still did not disown her. He despises dark Irons and he loved his daughter more than any of that, so what makes you think he would side with someone who took his kid away from him. I can't see him making a rational choice in that scneario.

[Aliven]

I am saying he is a damn Idiot for trying to assassinate her and for so brazenly meddling into internal dwarven affairs, something no human should be able to do. There were a great many other possibilities to handle the situation, but of course Wrynn chooses one of the most devastating ones.

Well she dragged her to the open and not a single dwarf stopped him. They were just watching. No guards, nada.

Seems she was a really popular chick.

[Combatbutler]

Well she dragged her to the open and not a single dwarf stopped him. They were just watching. No guards, nada.

Seems she was a really popular chick.

It is acknowledged in the story itself that killing her would have caused another dwarven civil war, which might have engulfed the entire Alliance so go Varian I guess. It was the entire point of the events to show that Varians original plan was a really dumb one.

[Wildmoon]

Is it the logical course of action to dispose of someone, causing a war, even though you can get them in line with no casualties at all? The answer is no of course not.

The act of holding a hostage and all possibities it presens have nothing to do with what Varian chose to do. You are mixing the points I made. Holding someone hostage logically implies very wide range of possibilities and the worst is on it.

Yeah lets rather drag someone from her chamber, in nightgown and execute her on the streets of ironforge.

Killing someone who comits a grave crime. That's pretty straight to the point. Killings happen all the time in WarCraft and Varian was not someone to shy away from it.

Magni despised the dark Iron and his daughter ran of with one had a kid with one and he still did not disown her. He despises dark Irons and he loved his daughter more than any of that, so what makes you think he would side with someone who took his kid away from him. I can't see him making a rational choice in that scneario.

Would he go to war against the entire AA? Would his people support him in his quest for vengence for someone that was already not well loved by the people? There are many things Magni would have to consider and he could very well end up not going to war despite wanting to.

[Hyral]

But the point is for me, I can relate to the actions Varian took. (What you describe here) Might not been the best action, but it certainly isn´t the worst.
Because: Dwarfes are still part of the Alliance, and even the Dark Irons officially join in.
I could very well see, if varian didn´t intervene and enforced the Council, we might have a bigger Problem with Power Hungry Dark Iron Dwarfes as our Enemies.
Theres a reason why the Wildhammers and DarkIrons left IronForge in the first place. And while the Wildhammers were still rather friendly, the DarkIrons were the opposite. And I doubt Moira alone would´ve changed that.

Oh the council was absolutely the best solution in my opinion as well! I think what some say is it would have been better if the dwarves came up with the idea themselves instead of the usual protagonists of the Alliance; the humans.

And yeah, I'm sure many parents would sympathize with going on a rage if they find out their child was kept captive by someone who was recently related to a world ending cult.

[Aliven]

It is acknowledged in the story itself that killing her would have caused another dwarven civil war, which might have engulfed the entire Alliance so go Varian I guess. It was the entire point of the events to show that Varians original plan was a really dumb one.

You missed the point.

Nobody was gonna stop varian from killing moira. She was HATED at this point by everyone except her dark irons. She tried to rule with iron fist and iron fist smacked her in the face.

Civil war ofc would follow, because there were dark irons for example. I assume if Varian did kill her, matter would run different way.