What could have been a fourth role for players in WoW apart from support?

[Raqubor]

I would actually enjoy playing a support role, like shaman was with the buff totems and such, but we are way past that with our dumbed down trinity.

[Eazy]

a troll - someone who tries to wipe the group. He should have skills like stunning group members, disarming, buffing bosses etc.

That would be awesome. Just imagine a BG where you have to fight a boss with the group, but from the opposite faction there's a "troll" who's masked as someone from your faction and is trying to wipe the group.

[bufferunderrun]

Currently the PvE end of things are played as a Tank a Healer and a Damage Dealer. You could argue PvP is more complex and more than just mere DD and Healing.

However, if you were in the dev team and it were decided to include a new role, especially for PvE, what do you think could have filled this spot?

Now, I do want to leave the support role out because mainly it's too broad.

Also;

A) It's the obvious go to option
B) We unofficially had it in the past like shadow priests of TBC
C) Jack of all master of none approaches don't cut it in today's competitive environment
D) I want to spark thoughts for more creative routes


This thread isn't about asking if a fourth role is needed. It most probably isn't needed at all.

Imho there isn't a space for a different "role", tank/healer/dps are already encompassing all the needed even support is difficult to fit; what can another role do? Strategist?

But there is space for different way to approach a "role", for example sword and board dps, cloth ranged tank, dps/healer hybrid, pets focused healer or tanks, mechanical focused classes etc.

[Deleted]

That would be awesome. Just imagine a BG where you have to fight a boss with the group, but from the opposite faction there's a "troll" who's masked as someone from your faction and is trying to wipe the group.

You get this regularly when doing world bosses on a PvP realm.

[Echocho]

Support is the obvious one, but they could've branched out into healer support, damage support and tank support.
Another role could've been Control, but that would have created a niche in encounter design to validate their existence. If there are nothing to control then you're not needed.

I was sad to see the support role go. The most fun I ever had was playing a shadow priest in TBC. I didn't top any meters but me being there made everyone else better.

[Aleksej89]

I have seen other mmos use some type of a crowd controller and debuffer.

A class whose purpose is to debilitate enemies, either through CC or debuffs that weaken them, so that they amplify their teams DMG and protect with CC.

[zhero]

I have seen other mmos use some type of a crowd controller and debuffer.

A class whose purpose is to debilitate enemies, either through CC or debuffs that weaken them, so that they amplify their teams DMG and protect with CC.

that is a support role

[worcester]

You can create any role you wanted as long as there is an encounter niche for it.

You think tanks and healers are required at all? No, it's simply because the encounters have been designed/forced to necessitate them. I.e. if all damage was avoidable you would not need healers. If bosses did not have auto attacks, you would not need tanks. Even having a second tank is forced via simple debuff mechanics.

The "flag runner" is a role in pvp is a unique role that can be done by tank specs (note that they are called tank specs because of their pve roles, yet are fundamentally different in pvp and even have customised templates etc.)

You could have a "Janitor" role, whose sole job is to go around stomping out ground fires, oil spills and poison pools, with additional tasks such as soaking, running objectives, repairing encounter object mechanics for use, flamethrower to mow down weeds etc. But then all encounters must necessitate this spec similar to tanks or healers. In the end, we don't really need it because it must be forced. And while tanking and healing being forced is acceptable practice in rpgs, non-traditional roles are often shunned due to their obscurity (e.g. mesmer in gw1).

[Deleted]

Tank
Healer
DPS

and

Support - Buffing/enchancing the other allies and maybe debuffing the enemy.

[Kokolums]

This is an old topic and the generally agreed upon 4th role is pvp. You would alter dungeons / raids to include 2 competing teams. Youd have to win the pvp fight and kill the bosses.

[Deleted]

Something like a guide? Imagine an instance without map, randomly generated, where ever you look, only darkness, but the GUIDE goes ahead and shows the way. Sometimes open doors, skipping trashmobs, skipping boss mechanics (like in court of stars).

[Skayth]

Support, with 3 different versions: buffer, off healer, and off tank

Off healer would bring okay dps, and okay heals, while also cooldown that would be used in conjunction with other healers. And if they wanted to force viability, an off healer would buff a single other party members to increase either their dps or their heals. Ex: blood warlock: would constantly consume blood and souls of the enemies and heals those around it, while for a cd it would have a powerful healing hot that would be used in conjunction of spirit totem or power word shield.

Off tank would actually change up the tank, by forcing a 3rd taunted and able to hold a boss for a good minute. While also giving a passive aura of armor to melee and the tanks and able to force a major cooldown to come off cd immediately for a single tank during a fight. Would mostly play like glad warrior from wod but with changes. It's major cooldown could either be defensive or dps wise. Force viability is simply by making a third taunter.

Buffer, we all know as the bard

[The Man in Room V]

Support, with 3 different versions: buffer, off healer, and off tank

Off healer would bring okay dps, and okay heals, while also cooldown that would be used in conjunction with other healers. And if they wanted to force viability, an off healer would buff a single other party members to increase either their dps or their heals. Ex: blood warlock: would constantly consume blood and souls of the enemies and heals those around it, while for a cd it would have a powerful healing hot that would be used in conjunction of spirit totem or power word shield.

Off tank would actually change up the tank, by forcing a 3rd taunted and able to hold a boss for a good minute. While also giving a passive aura of armor to melee and the tanks and able to force a major cooldown to come off cd immediately for a single tank during a fight. Would mostly play like glad warrior from wod but with changes. It's major cooldown could either be defensive or dps wise. Force viability is simply by making a third taunter.

Buffer, we all know as the bard

Great ideas, but the healer support shouldn't buff dps that should be the bard's territory. Otherwise, spot on.

[shadowmouse]

However, if you were in the dev team and it were decided to include a new role, especially for PvE, what do you think could have filled this spot?

Craftsman/Scholar We have NPCs like Lorewalker Cho who do their part to move the story along, but they aren't right there in the thick of things swinging a weapon or casting spells. A Craftsman/Scholar would be related to that theme.

Specs: Melee/Caster/Healer

The goal would be to make characters that add an extra layer of detail to professions, let them turn out improved versions of recipes, but leave them some form of presence for PVE or PVP so they aren't just crafting bots. True, this still fits in with the Trinity for group content, but hopefully it would offer a reason for players to do more things by themselves to perfect their craft.

Example: Smithing Craftsman/Scholar

Bonuses: Improved recipes that use fewer/simpler materials as a base. Adding more exotic materials, coupled with class talents, would give a greater chance for a specific affix, an item upgrade, or even both.

Professions: Blacksmith/Miner/First Aid/Archeology Blacksmith would get the bonuses described above, Miner would have a chance to get more or better materials, Archeology would be used to hunt ancient secrets that would feed the bonuses, First Aid would help keep them going in their adventures.

Melee: Mail armor, one or two handed maces
Caster: Mail armor, arcane spells
Healer: Mail armor, elemental spells

Class cool downs would be weak in comparison to DPS or Healers. No tank spec, that's a bit too direct for the Craftsman/Scholar -- their skills come from surviving challenges they encounter searching for knowledge. Stronger base damage from using their masterwork weapons, augmented with special materials and ancient techniques. A class bonus for being solo rather than in a group, and a mild penalty for being in a group. Their support element would come from being able to add temporary bonuses like the old whetstones and counterweights did.

To keep things from being a balancing nightmare, other professions would be similar, using mail armor but with weapons and talents fitting their profession.

What makes this not strictly support or Trinity DPS? The emphasis on solo play to become a master and scholar.

[OrcsRLame]

Dungeons and Dragons Online has kind of soft roles due to how the class system is designed. At its core though, it does have a very interesting role that I haven't seen anywhere else. Trapper. A trapper is someone that finds and disarms traps. Due to the soft nature of roles in DDO trappers have fallen in and out of the meta many times. I think the need for trappers was strongest when the game was new 11 years ago, back when a single trap going off could instantly wipe a whole raid. That paradigm is long gone, but even so there's still times when it's hugely advantageous to have a trapper. In the newest raid for example, there's a part where you have to climb a large staircase while adds shoot down at you from above and melee adds come up at you from below. With no trapper, you will have to deal with air vents that will shoot you off all the way down to the bottom as well as puddles of grease that make it very slow to ascend the stairs. These can be avoided with skillful jumping and certain pieces of gear, but it's a hell of a lot easier to just disable all the bullshit. And that matters because raids in DDO aren't like raids in wow. If you wipe on trash you have to start the whole damn thing over. In that sense you can think of a raid as an hour long boss fight.

[Azelas]

a buffer/debuffer probably, but it's tough. The trinity has survived all this years because it covers all the basics and it's hard to replace.

[Jervaise]

As a clarification: In the original post I did not include "support" because the word itself is way too broad.

What I have seen in many games is that supports end up doing some healing, some damage, some buffs - mainly some of all other roles.

In today's competitive gaming scene, that wouldn't create much interest.

However, I've seen many people narrow down "support" role as they see fit. That is perfectly fine.

Support could, and would of course be a natural 4th role, as long as we define its borders fine.

As another point, the game itself would have to be expanded to make room for a 4th role to be played (see my scout example below)



Some examples of such narrowing down would be:

- Summoners: Could be summoners of anything from pets to consumables, from scrolls to item enhancements

- Engineers: Think of it as a combination of preparation and on the go usage of mechanical devices.

- Scouts: A whole team of scouts in all encounters - going forward first to determine tactics in dynamic environment while the rest of the raid kills enemies securing the way to the next area - could be very fast paced or stealthy gameplay

- Spellbreakers/Lifebreakers: Health aspect of all NPC's and players could be divided into two separate entities - the DD classes can then be split up. Many DD classes would have either spellbreaker or lifebreaker specs. Lifebreaking would essentially kill enemies, whereas spellbreaking would completely disable them. Both would have different but connected gameplays where anyone would be able to do appropriate damage - some just much more efficiently - etc.

(Most of the above are "support" but they do not just do a mix of heal/dd. They have unique jobs to do - that was my main issue with "support" as it's implemented in other games)

[Deleted]

I fear the ones who say that basically the trinity thing covers pretty much everything are quite right. crowd control, buffs and debuffs, area controls are too spread among different classes / specs. I don't say it's impossible to do, but if it's not done really we,, such a fourth role risks to become something already seen and / or unneccessary. And even in the case of let's say a bard, which i like as a idea, in the end would be another supporting dps, unless it's designed like a healer (but then it's a healer!) or beats the enemy while buffing and debuffing (but then it's a dps with utilities!) :|
Uhm mind that these are ironic idiocies... but want some really differente fourth role? i dunno, maybe the squire? you buff and prepare the raiders, then set a camp outside the fight zone and watch your sirs fighting from there, while you do their chores? or maybe the catcher, i.e. a guy who never fights but uses stealth, sprint and damage reductions to dart around the battlefield, fetch fallen or missed darts, arrows, holy hammers and shields, and brings em back to the owners? xD or maybe the vendor, but i call it op already!

- - - Updated - - -

i think they are all nice ideas, but basically feels to me that you are talking about another, imaginary MMORPG, not about WoW :P Or at least, or beloved favourite blizzard's drug should change a lot in terms of vibe, spirit and gameplay to harbor that kind of things. As for engineers... yeaah but as it's been said like 100000000 times here around (And i'm sure you are aware of it) it's already a profession :P

[Jervaise]

I fear the ones who say that basically the trinity thing covers pretty much everything are quite right. crowd control, buffs and debuffs, area controls are too spread among different classes / specs. I don't say it's impossible to do, but if it's not done really we,, such a fourth role risks to become something already seen and / or unneccessary. And even in the case of let's say a bard, which i like as a idea, in the end would be another supporting dps, unless it's designed like a healer (but then it's a healer!) or beats the enemy while buffing and debuffing (but then it's a dps with utilities!) :|
Uhm mind that these are ironic idiocies... but want some really differente fourth role? i dunno, maybe the squire? you buff and prepare the raiders, then set a camp outside the fight zone and watch your sirs fighting from there, while you do their chores? or maybe the catcher, i.e. a guy who never fights but uses stealth, sprint and damage reductions to dart around the battlefield, fetch fallen or missed darts, arrows, holy hammers and shields, and brings em back to the owners? xD or maybe the vendor, but i call it op already!

Well the only reason I started this thread is to see if we can imagine a different gameplay I stated already WoW doesn't need this, just thinking for the purpose of thinking

The current gameplay leaves no room as you have stated yourself.

There should be a different sort of "bar" or "resource" that is to be depleted other than health bars if this to happen in my opinion.

If we take real world wars of any era, warfield medicine and research are totally different concepts. Such as espionage or scouting or intelligence etc.

That is my current inspiration in thinking about this

PS: WOW doesn't need a fourth role at all

[Deleted]

a troll - someone who tries to wipe the group. He should have skills like stunning group members, disarming, buffing bosses etc.

Best idea ever xD