Why Chaos Cleave instead of First Blood?

[osa]

Aggromar, when hes casting his giant AoE, I'm sure we can an extra blade dance before when we run out. That's what I do. Gorathi, again, targeted. Don't have to run far, but that is a good time while BD cools off. Do I need to go on? Have we even killed these bosses yet? Its an 8-10 second window of forgiveness for not being at the boss! I feel I've made my points, I've seen very little against.

DH doesn't have passive fury regen (like rogue energy for example) so you get no benefit wasting fury on suboptimal ability if you are not getting resource capped.

BTW simcraft base APL suggests using BD in rotation at 6+ targets (with demonic build and chaos cleave and without T20).
Quick sim confirms that:
5 targets, "6+" is using BD only if 6+ (so it's not used), "3+" is using BD

[Zeeket]

Aggromar, when hes casting his giant AoE, I'm sure we can an extra blade dance before when we run out. That's what I do. Gorathi, again, targeted. Don't have to run far, but that is a good time while BD cools off. Do I need to go on? Have we even killed these bosses yet? Its an 8-10 second window of forgiveness for not being at the boss! I feel I've made my points, I've seen very little against.

you can "feelcraft" it all you like, the crux of the matter is you're just wrong, in the situations your talking about why would you not just do another chaos strike before you go away, we have vengeful retreat and felrush you can stay in much longer than most and still clear the aoe or if you meant devastate you don't have to leave melee range at all because you should be stacking it to the side and the other melee move out of it (hell on garothi heroic we don't need to leave melee range at all cos we can CD the transitions and on mythic you're out asap regardless to get in the cooldown stack)
Chaos cleave just come out ahead, it may not be interesting but its the world we live in, also gearing haste and vers over mastery is just beyond stupid, the entire spec revolves around using eyebeam as much as possible, why would you not stack mastery as your secondary to boost it, not to mention with how many fights are aoe or cleave you're further gimping yourself by njot using mastery as your secondary after crit.

Obviously it all comes down to your personal preference, if you wanna use first blood then all power to you but do'nt spread miss information about it being "better" to make yourself feel better, because it just simply isn't

[Deleted]

As a "simpel" LFR and casual player i can give you my 2 cent on it. why is it better? it does more damage and cleaves, it gives me orbs which means i can do mor eyebeam. but on 4 Targets and above it is worth useing Blade dance. and with T21(which i just finished getting 4th part yesterday) it also just means I need more orbs to get more eye beam. ofc i have the legendarys for it, so is easy for me to say. but what was good about first blood, was at first how much damage it did on single target and helped on AOE, but now with much higher stats the increased mastery damage helps chaos cleave more.
(also if you are lazy, it means or rotation is 3 Abilitys. Chaos strike, demon bite and eye beam, so that is pretty damn easy)

[Typhoria]

I suppose if your stacked like a mofo on mastery, crit, and 2-3 Cleave crit boosting artifacts...

If you don't have 3 Critical Chaos relics your damage is going to be bad anyways.

[Skylarking]

Blade dance just gets worse and worse the more ilvl you get

[Lostprophet]

With T21, you can basically remove BD from your bars.. the only scenario you would use it is if there are alot of targets > ~8 and EB is on CD or if you want to dodge a physical attack :>

T21 favors Mastery instead of Haste. Mastery favors Chaos Cleave
Any CC Relic also favors Chaos Cleave

First Blood would be dead since early-mid NH, if the T20 would not be forcing it.

[Chaelexi]

I say First Blood myself. At least for single target.

1. First Blood scales with both Haste and Vers. Hey, guess what you get with your 4pc! Also, Vers > Mastery as both seem to give about the same damage increases, except Vers increases ALL damage (and some damage resistance to boot!). OK, the run increases from mastery is nice, but we got lots of mobility already.
On a good 4pc + heroism, I can sometimes get 3 death sweeps in before my meta drops from an eye blast, that is maybe 4mil damage, what did your Chaos Cleave get from that?

OK, Crit/Vers gear is given only by the RNG gods so it may differ for some people graced with mastery...

Unless your sporting 2-3 relics increasing Chaos Strike crit damage, I just don't see it matching up... and even then I'm skeptical.

2. More chances at procs. Procs are nice.

3. Its a hell of a lot more forgiving in non-patchwork situations. If I miss a chaos strike because I'm avoiding some bad, well, it would have been a single smash of 1.4m from First Blood.

The chance of an inner demon proc and a soul frag are about the only thing really in favor for chaos spam to me which "might" keep it ahead on a patchwork situation.

First of all everything scales with Vers and Chaos strike also scales with Haste as it lowers the GCD. As for your 4 M damage I almost do that in one chaos strike in Meta. but that feels craft. I know I prefer the DB/CB play style but I also know that it is not the way anymore.

[Baroclinic]

Changed my mind. I generally wont post others stuff up, but since its already made public. Heres some REAL WORLD (kinda) analysis.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

DH Albali has the better leggo, AotHG (+401 Fury) and the better neck chant, but suffers by 9 ilvls.
DH Séraphiné hes a good alternative leggo instead of Anger, but sadly doesn't seem to do him/her a hell of a lot of good. Also has a slightly better CPM, but had to deal with a Necrotic. Both used a single pot.

Albali our evil First Blood oppressor DPS:

Annih: 395,978
CS: 258,087
Total: 654,065

Also
Blade Dance: 52,757
Death Sweep: 223,969

Overall Total DPS: 930,971 (boo!)

And Seraphine our Chaos Cleave wielding hero:
Annil: 483,848
CS: 301,098
And finally CHAOS CLEAVE!: 77,208

Hell, Sera had more casts, roughly close in stats. Way better Crit, heck, both even have the same trinkets, except Sera has a better Scourgewing! But the thing is, Albali's friggin 9, yes 9, casts of Blade Dance is almost doing as much DPS as Sera's chaos cleave. Hell, not even getting into the Death Sweep yet.

But wait! Albali appears to have an extra trait of Critical Chaos! So, if Sera was blessed with such a trait, well 60% of stuff was crits if I read correctly, so lets take 60% of the DPS of those overall CS/AN (770,967) * 6% (28,258). Now the combined DPS is 799,225. Her Cleave spam would now be more along the lines of 79,922. Overall new theoretical DPS would now be 799,225. Hell, were still 100K off and Sera now has a free extra relic trait!

So, can that approx 400 extra Fury really account really account for over 100K DPS lost? Common, the second DH is up 9ilvls!!! Way better stats! A better neck chant might have pushed her crit up to maybe 20%, but even then, I could redo the math, but she would be lucky to even break even.

Who knows, maybe Seph doesn't have the mad skillz. She is slightly more wasteful of Fury. But aside, from 400 extra Fury, I feel that by looking at their logs they are both closely skilled. Albali could maybe even up his DPS buy doing a Blade Damce cast before EB, something he says he is working on. This would paste the 1.1mil+ damage cheap 15 fury attack on CD while EB is face melting. Sera can... hope for better RNG.

So, we can go to rethinking how we see our Chaos Cleave world, or we can close our eyes and continue to believe everything Skynet tells us...

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This goes to say, that still, maybe Chaos Cleave might come out on top, in situations of high crit and mastery with 3 relics. Your going to most likely need to toss your Golg trinket and your cool Antorius one for some stat sticks and need a really high ilvl. High enough to do over 9 million damage every 4-10 seconds purely with Chaos Cleave/Annil (which means you will need to average somewhere over 1.5-2 mil a swing). Aka the add phase of Argus...

(Drops mic and walks away)

[Sellest]

(Drops mic and walks away)

What you showed us is that both of these DHs can't play properly. You can try to justify whatever you want with your napkin math but it won't change the facts. So just play whatever you feel like.
Unless you guys aims for being the best DH players and you just kill the stuff it really doesn't matter.

[Aiqe]

Changed my mind. I generally wont post others stuff up, but since its already made public. Heres some REAL WORLD (kinda) analysis.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

DH Albali has the better leggo, AotHG (+401 Fury) and the better neck chant, but suffers by 9 ilvls.
DH Séraphiné hes a good alternative leggo instead of Anger, but sadly doesn't seem to do him/her a hell of a lot of good. Also has a slightly better CPM, but had to deal with a Necrotic. Both used a single pot.

Albali our evil First Blood oppressor DPS:

Annih: 395,978
CS: 258,087
Total: 654,065

Also
Blade Dance: 52,757
Death Sweep: 223,969

Overall Total DPS: 930,971 (boo!)

And Seraphine our Chaos Cleave wielding hero:
Annil: 483,848
CS: 301,098
And finally CHAOS CLEAVE!: 77,208

Hell, Sera had more casts, roughly close in stats. Way better Crit, heck, both even have the same trinkets, except Sera has a better Scourgewing! But the thing is, Albali's friggin 9, yes 9, casts of Blade Dance is almost doing as much DPS as Sera's chaos cleave. Hell, not even getting into the Death Sweep yet.

But wait! Albali appears to have an extra trait of Critical Chaos! So, if Sera was blessed with such a trait, well 60% of stuff was crits if I read correctly, so lets take 60% of the DPS of those overall CS/AN (770,967) * 6% (28,258). Now the combined DPS is 799,225. Her Cleave spam would now be more along the lines of 79,922. Overall new theoretical DPS would now be 799,225. Hell, were still 100K off and Sera now has a free extra relic trait!

So, can that approx 400 extra Fury really account really account for over 100K DPS lost? Common, the second DH is up 9ilvls!!! Way better stats! A better neck chant might have pushed her crit up to maybe 20%, but even then, I could redo the math, but she would be lucky to even break even.

Who knows, maybe Seph doesn't have the mad skillz. She is slightly more wasteful of Fury. But aside, from 400 extra Fury, I feel that by looking at their logs they are both closely skilled. Albali could maybe even up his DPS buy doing a Blade Damce cast before EB, something he says he is working on. This would paste the 1.1mil+ damage cheap 15 fury attack on CD while EB is face melting. Sera can... hope for better RNG.

So, we can go to rethinking how we see our Chaos Cleave world, or we can close our eyes and continue to believe everything Skynet tells us...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This goes to say, that still, maybe Chaos Cleave might come out on top, in situations of high crit and mastery with 3 relics. Your going to most likely need to toss your Golg trinket and your cool Antorius one for some stat sticks and need a really high ilvl. High enough to do over 9 million damage every 4-10 seconds purely with Chaos Cleave/Annil (which means you will need to average somewhere over 1.5-2 mil a swing). Aka the add phase of Argus...

(Drops mic and walks away)

Thats anecdotal though.
The DH with higher ilvl could just be a way worse player, i didnt look through the log myself but he could also have had worse proccs etc.

[Shirofune]

Cherry picking logs with how RNG the spec is isn't worth for anything.

Unless you speak with sims and very high iterations (100k) there's almost nothing to compare about.

[Dimzum]

(Drops mic and walks away)

You picked a parse where the DHs' damage was awful. The one is 965 and only doing 1.5mil...that's bad.

I could pick apart both of these guy's parses for all kind of stuff they are doing wrong as far as gear, enchants and gems, but that's not the point.

Go look at top performing logs of DHs and compare them. You'll find every parsing DH in that gear range is capable of pulling 1.8mil+ The ones with T21 are using chaos cleave. The only ones using Blade Dance have mythic T20.

[Vitinariy]

Yes, that's a very unconvincing example. I'm by no means a good player, but it's easy to have way more damage in this gear. This is our last log and I didn't even pot - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done.

The pulls are even approximately the same length and yes - you did 60 mil total on death sweep, but I did 81 by just annihilation spam.
And got almost 700 additional fury from CS and 300 additional from souls.
That's more resource, more damage and simpler rotation. So why would you try to invent a bicycle?

[Hungamungus]

Simple: you spend more time on chaos strike, which ultimately yields more orbs. For me it only sims marginally higher, so on fights where the 100% physical avoidance from blade dance is useful, I go with first blood.

[Exiztence]

Green log hero
(Drops mic and walks away)

Your post infuriates me as I refuse to believe you are serious and not trolling, why are you comparing Blade Dance damage to CC ? You are trading whole GCD for Blade Dance cast, so technically you should be comparing number of casts of blade dance vs same number of chaos strikes + overall CC damage, that is without factoring in that CS generates orbs that reduce meta cd and give fury blablabla. How does a single green log prove anything? This is like feelcraft on steroids, sample size 1 and you feel like it.

[Baroclinic]

LULZ, it's line I throw actual math out, everyone calls me a witch. ;P.

I suppose the other DH would have been "good", had the fight lasted 3 minutes allowing the shoulders to allow a second meta allowing a bust that would put him at 1.7 mil DPS. Most of you can't analyze a log short of looking at what color the number is.

And then Hung making up crap. 121 Chaos Strikes/Annih > 103 cause math is hard, and so it actually looking before you make crap up.

Complete DPS from Cleave/Annil/CS was compared with CS/AN/BD/DS. I didn't imagine many people to actually be able to understand a log past a few fancy numbers. I didn't even add in the extra pantheon trinket procs. Don't need too, it will be referred to witchcraft.

[Dimzum]

LULZ, it's line I throw actual math out, everyone calls me a witch. ;P.

I suppose the other DH would have been "good", had the fight lasted 3 minutes allowing the shoulders to allow a second meta allowing a bust that would put him at 1.7 mil DPS. Most of you can't analyze a log short of looking at what color the number is.

And then Hung making up crap. 121 Chaos Strikes/Annih > 103 cause math is hard, and so it actually looking before you make crap up.

Complete DPS from Cleave/Annil/CS was compared with CS/AN/BD/DS. I didn't imagine many people to actually be able to understand a log past a few fancy numbers. I didn't even add in the extra pantheon trinket procs. Don't need too, it will be referred to witchcraft.

Here's a comparison with a competent DPS
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

Albali has 5 ranks of concordance higher. The both have the same trinkets, close in item level and close in stats. The fight length is only 2 seconds different. Albali is still blown out of the water by almost 100mil damage.

Just comparing CS/Anh against CS/Anh+BD/DS it's still over a 50mil difference (whoops, forgot Chaos Cleave there's another 30mil).

Don't talk to me about short looking at logs. I comb through mine ever week.

First blood sucks with T21. It's been proven theoretically and empirically.

[Auberdeen]

How come? I know it scales with mastery, but Death Sweep while in Meta is so strong. Even without T20. Somehow Chaos Cleave sims better than First Blood

screw t21. i'm t20 4pc, 948i equipped w/ 930 Command and 930 crit stick, crit=51%, haste=26%, mastery=25%, vers =6%, and still continue to wipe the floor against all these chaoscleave try hards and t21 eyebeam toons. and my relics are all a joke as well

stop living by the forums and pave your own path. if i listened to all the naysayers i'd still be drooling out a miserable 1.3-1.5 too, happy i deviated from the norm. crit + haste for life. play style is just funner as well.

also, make a mastery set macro to swap to while running in between trash pulls, bout all its good for

[Deleted]

and still continue to wipe the floor against all these chaoscleave try hards and t21 eyebeam toons. and my relics are all a joke as well

oh for real, link some logs, sounds interesting.

[Svannas]

screw t21. i'm t20 4pc, 948i equipped w/ 930 Command and 930 crit stick, crit=51%, haste=26%, mastery=25%, vers =6%, and still continue to wipe the floor against all these chaoscleave try hards and t21 eyebeam toons. and my relics are all a joke as well

stop living by the forums and pave your own path. if i listened to all the naysayers i'd still be drooling out a miserable 1.3-1.5 too, happy i deviated from the norm. crit + haste for life. play style is just funner as well.

also, make a mastery set macro to swap to while running in between trash pulls, bout all its good for

Link logs showing you wrecking everyone. Otherwise take your feelscraft shit to noxxic, I'm also glad you have less crit than average DH while using EoC and a Crit stick. You went past the 'breakpoint' on haste for t20 in which vers would become better. :P