Alliance Faction is Good. Not Evil. there's a difference.

[Deleted]

There's always 2 sides to every story.Many examples from real life history can be taken.Many more were written by the winners and we never heard the other true side.

Calling one faction evil because it doesn't match your morals and likings is just plain stupid.If they were same then they'd be on the same team now wouldn't they?
Both factions have done questionably things now which did more is just a child's argument on greater and lesser evil.

[Steampunkette]

We're talking about sustaining a nation. Again there are several flaws with your argument 1) A few desperate people seeking to prolong the lives of their dead loved ones is simply not enough 2) why would they want them raised when they're not going to see them anyways. After all they're Forsaken now and are probably going to Tirisfal3) The people of Lordaeron recognised that their own home was in ruins and pretty much lifeless but it was their home nonetheless. Why do you consider that these people of the Alliance would even want to be part of an undead kingdom that is far away from their own home?

As far as I can remember Sylvanas only wanted the responsible forsaken dead because they also experimented on Forsaken.

So within a single argument you say that 1) Sylvanas couldn't refuse Garrosh's orders because he would have killed her and 2) that she did so anyways by creating more Forsaken. wew

I think I'm actually done discussing. This is too much.

She couldn't refuse his order to go to -war- because when Cairne wanted to avoid war, Garrosh killed him in a Mak'Gorah. Skirting his order to not use the plague but still getting him his victory is something to mollify him. It's almost like there's different degrees of what a person can or will tolerate, and Sylvanas had some kind of insight...

1) How many people would be willing? Especially if the Forsaken were allies rather than enemies, as initially suggested.

2) They wouldn't HAVE to go to Tirisfal in this Hypothetical we've been discussing 'cause the Forsaken would be a part of a greater society rather than just a little keep in a dark forest valley.

3) See above. If the Alliance had accepted the Forsaken at the end of WC3 the Forsaken would've been allies, not enemies, of Stormwind, and able to offer their services. If they made peace, today, as a manipulative trick in order to get the Alliance to protect Sylvanas and end her role in the fighting, same thing.

We don't know how long it takes for Forsaken to rot. So far it's been over a decade since the first Forsaken was born and they're still moving and grooving without much issue. Some few (One, that we've seen) have/has gone far enough to fear the rot taking their mind/s. But that's about it. If the Forsaken have a "Lifespan" of 20 years, then they'd have 10 years to focus on a cure if they weren't spending all their time defending themselves against Scarlets or preparing for war against others.

If they did it, today, they'd have 10 years for some, 20 years for others, and future Forsaken would have the chance to find a cure, and at least live beyond death to spend more time with the people they love.

So, ultimately, it would STILL benefit the Forsaken to make peace with the Alliance. At least until Lordaeron is destroyed: After that there's just no chance on either side.

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This is the reason this whole free will is utter bullcrap. At the first mention of a different opinion Sylvanas feels betrayed and upset. Why would that be? Maybe because she doesn't want her pet zombies to think? She just wants them to be there to prolong her life.

She does not see them as people. She keeps them to protect her. And what about the Alliance? They don't see rotting walking corpses as people? Oh the humanity.

It's funny...

It's almost like people who are making a grand gesture to do a huge thing for someone else might feel upset at having that big-ass gift refused.

We're not talking about "We think we should paint the walls grey instead of purple" levels of Disagreement, here. We're talking about people telling her that her life-goal is something they're not big on.

She sees them as people. You don't feel betrayed by a hammer.

[Deleted]

snip

So Sylvanas and the forsaken would be the good guys, if they were the good guys? Because that is basically what you're saying. If they joined the alliance instead of the horde. If they were not rotting undead monstrosities, maybe. If they weren't actively using the plague every chance they get. If their guards wouldn't literally be stiched together rotting flesh raised to kill anything living.

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It's funny...

It's almost like people who are making a grand gesture to do a huge thing for someone else might feel upset at having that big-ass gift refused.

We're not talking about "We think we should paint the walls grey instead of purple" levels of Disagreement, here. We're talking about people telling her that her life-goal is something they're not big on.

She sees them as people. You don't feel betrayed by a hammer.

Maybe she shouldn't rezz everything that's died. She especially shouldn't rezz people killed by the Forsaken and then granting them the choice of joining that same warmachine that's only purpose in "life" is to create more zombies.

How are we arguing FOR the hordes of zombies from every zombie movie ever?

Maybe, if half your population disagrees with you, your life-goal is shitty

[BSwitch]

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Yes, but would your paladin fight greedy goblins literally bleeding your planet dry?

Yes, certainly, and admittedly my opinion in this case is that the Horde is wrong. The narrative being told to the Horde, however, is that these are innocent miners - civilians at that - and Alliance troops are murdering them. We, the noble Horde, must defend the defenseless...and, if we make some extra money, or gain some extra power, oh well...

Easy to see it from both sides.

Now, if the Horde was told that this was the actual life-blood of the planet, and by mining it you could literally destroy the planet, and they continued to do so, we'd have a stronger "no, they're actually evil" argument. I'd be interested to see what the Alliance does in the expansion too - will we start mining Azerite as well? Obviously we are going to collect it, but by what means? Will we do so in a somehow more noble way? Lots of questions still at this point. "Horde is evil" is certainly compelling, I'm just not sure it can be that black and white - especially after so many expansions where we've fought the same foes, sometimes literally side by side.

[Serenais]

Wrathgate wasn't Horde's doing, it was Putress', the grove was indeed done by a commander of the Horde which Garrosh personally executed after the deed(You should try both parts of the story, not only Alliance and its not hard to reach there its a 25-30lvl zone and one I would recommend)

Theramore was an enemy port being used to shelter troops in a period of war, while I agree that using a mana-bomb was an overkill it's still a justified attack (In which the Kirin tor Broke Neutrality once again).

Goblins are Goblins I don't have anything to say about them.

Going back to Sylvanas and the forsaken it's the same as the US(the exact same reasons), why would you spend countless resources and your people lives when you can Nuke TWICE and end(Win) the war ?

Who actually used the weapons or against what is not really the point. What IS the point is that the Horde developed several WMDs that did end up used against Alliance or third parties. Sylvanas ordered the plague to be engineered so that it can target both undead and humans (per the Arthas book). Putress just used it prematurely.
And the goblin point kind of stands. Garrosh quite apparently wasn't happy about the bomb being used (I did see the cinematic), however, he was either a massive failiure as a leader to not notice that a WMD was built behind his back (and WMDs are never small, covert projects; it's always VERY obvious that something is being built, just as it was in this case, when the bomb was visible from far and wide even during assembly), or just the bomb was used too soon without his permission, but with his knowledge of its existence (and, if this being the case, also his order to create it).
All those combined are a very good reason for the Alliance to keep taps on what the goblins and Sylvanas are doing. The moment the Alliance finds out that the Horde got access to a new, very potent material, it HAS to act. Looking the other way and saying "Eh, they (or someone else) definitelly won't use it THIS time" would be utter folly. Previously, such folly ended up in massive losses.
And, let's not discuss legitimity of a WMD use against a classic target. Overkill breaks justifiability through and through (if not, then nuking barracks would be perfectly okay). Theramore could've been neutralised as a port in many a way that wouldn't end up in a massive war crime - heck, Garrosh even pulled off a blockade of it (and after it, the WHOLE CONTINENT), making it completely useless as a port for ferrying anything. It was so effective, that Theramore only managed to get out ONE ship of civilians, everything and everyone else stayed inside the city. The mana bomb afterwards was just Garrosh going off the slippery slope and pulling half of the Horde with him.

[Ghazan Julio]

I've often found that those who are most scornful of the lore are those who know the least about it. Think on that for a while, k?

Nah, you think on it. Don't fry your CPU. I know the difference between goblins and gnomes.

[Blobfish]

I think the "Undead" make the Horde evil

I play Alliance & think Tauren are lovely..

Orcs & Belfs are ok..Trolls are Rastas... Goblins remind me of a certain group of money hungry people from the middle east..big noses..

But the Undead / Forsaken= pure Evil.

[cparle87]

Nah, you think on it. Don't fry your CPU. I know the difference between goblins and gnomes.

Well, what I was going for actually was that you show how little you actually know about the characters if you simply take memes you've heard about and a quick glance at their appearance and think you can boil them down to a few buzzwords.

It would be like reading the synopsis on the back of one of the Game of Thrones books and trying to boil down a character mentioned there into just one line. There's so much more to them than just that.

[Aliven]

Just because they are not like others? Because they happened to be dead? God, I never thought that xenophobic things could happen in game but well...

You cant be xenophobic about undead. From moral stand it is the same as hating rocks.

[Deleted]

Just because they are not like others? Because they happened to be dead? God, I never thought that xenophobic things could happen in game but well...

The evil xenophobic players don't want rotting, back-stabbing, self-serving corpses as their allies.

[MrDragon]

*checks in on the thread*
Still just screeching Horde and Alliance fanboys blindly hating the other faction for reasons? Yes?
Ok, uhm... #notallundead #forthehorde #allianceisnotevil
Peace!

[Doffen]

*checks in on the thread*
Still just screeching Horde and Alliance fanboys blindly hating the other faction for reasons? Yes?
Ok, uhm... #notallundead #forthehorde #allianceisnotevil
Peace!

I hate the Lich King. Boom de yada!

[meroes]

The ORC are violent invaders. They committed the first crime and alliance haven't done nearly as much back.


Orc are the problem. Tauren, troll, UD are all cool. Kick the warmongering orcs out

[Mellrod]

It doesn't really matter as a superpower they cannot afford to ignore powerful artifacts and the like, so of course they would want it. Even if the horde were not involved at all they would still try to get their hands on it.

Right but you're ignoring each faction's motives now. Horde want it so they can launch an all out war on Alliance and raze their cities. Alliance want it so they can defend themselves. Alliance's desire is reactionary. If that wasn't the case, then of course they would try to get their hands on it, but I don't really see them burning Thunderbluff like what is going to happen to Teldrassil, or razing cities and murdering everyone.

Azerite on it's own isn't a superweapon, that's just one of it's possible uses. If Horde wasn't so aggressive, Alliance would more likely use it for something more productive than war, like an energy source, an income source, etc. that helps their nations prosper. Of course they would gather more than enough for a conflict, but from the sounds of it, without the Horde, it would be a "break-glass-in-case-of-war" deal. Alliance is always reacting, Horde is always instigating. Any Horde players that try to play spin doctor on this whole ordeal are delusional if they ignore that glaring pattern of the WoW's narrative.

[Leodric]

You cant be xenophobic about undead. From moral stand it is the same as hating rocks.

When will rock racism ever end

[Combatbutler]

Right but you're ignoring each faction's motives now. Horde want it so they can launch an all out war on Alliance and raze their cities. Alliance want it so they can defend themselves. Alliance's desire is reactionary. If that wasn't the case, then of course they would try to get their hands on it, but I don't really see them burning Thunderbluff like what is going to happen to Teldrassil, or razing cities and murdering everyone.

The Alliance isn't always reactionary, especially the humans who have been expansive over the course of several thousand years trying to expand in every direction and I can easily see them slaughter races they deem as beasts or too inhuman, take the troll wars for example, both the humans and the elves were the invaders here and the trolls did not want them on their land trying to rebuild what was lost after the sundering. Instead of leaving the humans build a wall to keep their territories and later used the elves to vastly expand their territory, by taking almost all of the remaining troll land.

Azerite on it's own isn't a superweapon, that's just one of it's possible uses. If Horde wasn't so aggressive, Alliance would more likely use it for something more productive than war, like an energy source, an income source, etc. that helps their nations prosper. Of course they would gather more than enough for a conflict, but from the sounds of it, without the Horde, it would be a "break-glass-in-case-of-war" deal. Alliance is always reacting, Horde is always instigating. Any Horde players that try to play spin doctor on this whole ordeal are delusional if they ignore that glaring pattern of the WoW's narrative.

They would still try to cut others off from this incredibly powerful source of power, since they wouldn't trust others with it and there are elements within the Alliance that would use this resource as a weapon of mass destruction in a heartbeat.

[Growel]

.... this harassment of calling people racist or idiots just because they play the alliance or support it .....

I've been playing since vanilla, and I've never seen this happen.

[OverFanNisseFrasse]

Neither faction is good or evil - depending on who you are, you tend to think you're the good guy, and "they're" the bad guy. I was born/raised in America - taught that we were the best country on earth, and the arbiters of all that is good and righteous in the world, and we were lucky to be born in such a great place. Then, after high school, I moved abroad. Everyone that I ever met from other countries said the same thing about their homes (some exceptions for people who had left pretty dire situations). I don't really want to turn this into an irl political thing, but just to say I gained LOTS of perspective about the actual state of the world once I left the US and could see other countries and their people up close, and could see the US from the outside.

It's the same with Azeroth. I play Alliance, but there are plenty of blinded idiots in this faction. My character (Paladin, now the leader of the Silver Hand which accepts all Paladins) would not discount or fight the Horde simply because of their races or affiliations. As a Paladin, my character would fight users of the Void who were on the Alliance sooner than Light users who happened to be Horde. There's not a universe in which my Paladin would align with Void Elves...yet, that's what my faction leaders are doing...

But, is that right? Is Alleria evil because she's aligned with the Void? Can I condone the forced subjugation and attempted submission of Illidan, even though he didn't want the Light forced on him? It's all a matter of perspective. Just like irl, everybody believes they're right and good, and their enemies have it wrong, and in reality we could all use a little more discussion and empathy, rather than jumping to conclusions and fighting.

This is beautiful written! Actully made me smile a bit.

Yes, certainly, and admittedly my opinion in this case is that the Horde is wrong. The narrative being told to the Horde, however, is that these are innocent miners - civilians at that - and Alliance troops are murdering them. We, the noble Horde, must defend the defenseless...and, if we make some extra money, or gain some extra power, oh well...

Easy to see it from both sides.

Now, if the Horde was told that this was the actual life-blood of the planet, and by mining it you could literally destroy the planet, and they continued to do so, we'd have a stronger "no, they're actually evil" argument. I'd be interested to see what the Alliance does in the expansion too - will we start mining Azerite as well? Obviously we are going to collect it, but by what means? Will we do so in a somehow more noble way? Lots of questions still at this point. "Horde is evil" is certainly compelling, I'm just not sure it can be that black and white - especially after so many expansions where we've fought the same foes, sometimes literally side by side.

This is an interesting thing you take up actully. Alot of people point out that "the Goblins are minning the lifeblood of our planet, they are so bad! And Horribal!" I am however, preeetty sure, that during the Blizzcon, when they talked about the Azerite, the lifeblood of the planet, that we, the adventurers, are gonna mine it and use it to power are medallion thingy we got from Azeroth or something.

Now I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure thats what they said, if someone remember or have a link of it, I would be greatful if they could link it here. 'Caus if that is true, we are no better then the goblins. If anything we are being extremly hypocritical, and then this whole discussion pointless in saying that the goblins are the bad guys. I mean, then we actully know this is the lifeblood and we mine it anyway! While the goblins doesn't even know it is the lifeblood, just some good stuff they can sale for a high price!-... questionable they might would have mined it anyway since they are greedy. Or unless for some reason that only us, the chosen adventurers, have permission to use Azeroth lifeblood due to our medallion thingy.

Not gonna denya the Horde is the aggressors and all that.

[Ghazan Julio]

Ally are by far the most evil from what we've seen in this expansion. Varian was the only one to make a direct stand besides Sylvanas, who the ally lovers think deserted them, actually had to get Vol'jin out of there and Baine was wounded as well.

The alliance are just puppets whereas the Horde are actually choosing to work together. The Alliance seem more about Pride, hence the lion crap. They're much like Lannisters from ASOIAF. They are very flashy and sometimes very impressive, but overall Alliance is definitely more evil, they are just a bunch of pawns being used by old gods and shit. Alleria seems to be the only character to show she's actually cooking up a plan to save the world, whereas in the Cinematic her Sister is already saying, "ours is a cycle of hatred" blah blah endless conflict because we're petty idiots. And If any of you have a nice counter-argument to this...........................jaina proudmoore. She is probably more dangerous than having someone as weak as Tyrande and Malfurion representing your faction. The truth hurts ally, you guys are really boring and hateful in the lore. If only the bomb had killed Jaina...

[Leodric]

The truth hurts ally, you guys are really boring and hateful in the lore. If only the bomb had killed Jaina...

Typical 14 year old Horde Fanboy. This sentence alone made me laugh quite good. You talk about how hatefull the Alliance is and right in the next sentence wish the manabomb (a weapon of mass destruction responsible directly and indirectly killing many civilian) killed Jaina .

Not even gonna start telling you how much more shit the Horde has on their stick compared to the Alliance, if you would be really interested to actually learn the Lore, then you can read this thread.

No offense though .