Do Garrosh fans think the same thing about Sylvanas?

[Dudas]

I am just happy Horde is going back to been the "Bad Guys". Cata Garrosh was the perfect horde. Tried to trade with the night elves. When the Night Elves said no they took it by force.

Which is retarded don't you think? If you go to the corner store as a kid and the owner refuses to sell you alcohol you start invading the store or kill the owner?

[Airwaves]

Which is retarded don't you think? If you go to the corner store as a kid and the owner refuses to sell you alcohol you start invading the store or kill the owner?

If it means avoiding your people staving to death in the burnt down city. Then yes. It makes perfect sense. Thrall left the orcs starving and with a half burnt down city. Garrosh tried to feed his people the right way. The night elves said no and he was left with no choice but to invade.

The issue is that this all happened in the books. Which most players don't read.

[Dudas]

If it means avoiding your people staving to death in the burnt down city. Then yes. It makes perfect sense. Thrall left the orcs starving and with a half burnt down city. Garrosh tried to feed his people the right way. The night elves said no and he was left with no choice but to invade.

The issue is that this all happened in the books. Which most players don't read.

You have a whole planet filled with wood. Yes it might take longer. But you can get the same thing without you know WAR. Yet you choose war. Stop finding excuses for that pathetic "warchief".

If other children on the playground have better toys, do you go and beat them and take cause they refuse to share them with you? Maybe they refuse to offer you things because you act the way you act.

[Velshin]

I'd love to believe that, but I've seen people here and on official forums going at length trying to explain their mental gymnastics around this one.

You know what is funny? those people who claim that Thrall is mary sue and perfect these same people blame Thrall for being wrong to give the mantle of Warchief to Garrosh in the first place by saying stuff like "but but! Garrosh was not wrong Thrall is the one who gave him the mantle Warchief ! Garrosh didn't want it"

Funny that they contradict themselves oh the irony.

[TheFirstOnes]

Yes. Sylvanas ran away from everything. For example: She ran from the Legion. And now, she's bombing her own city, and is also running away like a helpless piglet.

Garrosh never ran, even when cornered. Be like Garrosh.

FOR THE HORDE!

[sam86]

The argument between Garrosh and Vol'jin was an escalation from Garrosh smarting from Vol'jin's defiance, Garrosh basically accepted no criticism from his advisers (who he regarded as simple subordinates). Garrosh is also the first to threaten Vol'jin with violence

Yes but threaten with direct assault is the normal for orcs, they consider face to face combat is honorable and the right way to do things, Vol'jin didn't say the same things, he threatened to backstab him, also in the story it was obvious that Garrosh 'advisers' were the one who started this mistrust relation, not him, if Vol'jin wanted to actually fix not ruin it even more, he should noticed that Thrall 'advisers' first task were to disobey Garrosh in everything it seemed

This doesn't paint Garrosh in the best of lights no matter how you shake it - and Vol'jin's implied threat isn't cowardly, he wants Garrosh to know full well who it was that brought about his ruin (and he does during the Insurrection and SoO arc).

I'm not a Garrosh support to be clear, Garrosh ruined the family-united horde and until now it didn't heal, Garrosh became obvious tyrant, but I don't turn blind eye on who ruined Garrosh either (mainly bad writing)

In-game quest mechanics <> story-related power or ability. Zalazane was powerful, and sending more Darkspear against him was only increasing his numbers as opposed to winnowing them. In the end even the Horde coalition wasn't powerful enough to take down Zalazane, and it required the direct intervention of Bwonsamdi himself (the Loa Spirit of Death) to bring Zalazane down.

Yeah but we have official blizzard statement that Zalzane was actually weak and faked his death multiple times, Zalazane 'power' was cheating death, not powerful assault, u can't do much if ur real power is just hard to kill, they killed many 'zalazane' only to find later they were zombie heads, nothing in the official wow page about zalazane fall says he was that powerful, in fact if we go to the non-canon RPG books he will be far more powerful than the official lore show

The Horde (in its person as Warchief Garrosh) had tried to kill him - that he delayed returning isn't really that much of a surprise, IMO. For a long time during his stay at the Shado-Pan monastery he was healed physically but not spiritually. He communed with the Loa (especially Bwonsamdi) to barter for the return of his sense of being a Troll, at first; and then further to try and decide what his future should be like. Where did his loyalty lie: with the Darkspear? With the greater Zandalari as a Shadow-Hunter? Or should he continue his affiliation with the Horde? I didn't really feel he was being disloyal, all things considered; and his ultimate choice reaffirmed his loyalty to the Horde (at least Thrall's original vision of it) which he then set out to restore to it much in the same way as his sense of himself had been restored to him.

U just said he was questioning if he stays loyal to horde or not, and no his stay was way too much that even some ppl in book told him (I think it was the 'human' friend hunter), he was the leader of the so-called rebellion, yet as 'leader' he avoided leading it for long time, if he wants to heal then he should stop bullshit about horde first, and admit that Vol'jin first then horde or whatever

Garrosh employed an assassin, he didn't kill Vol'jin personally or in honorable combat of any kind. Vol'jin's threat to Garrosh didn't imply secrecy, cowardice, or furtiveness - it was a pointedly direct threat and he specifically mentions that he wants Garrosh to know that it was Vol'jin who acted to end him. The threat was designed to emphasize the things Garrosh himself feared, the loss of his people's admiration and loyalty, the plotting of his enemies, and the paranoia that accompanied his descent into utter tyranny. Given the things that Garrosh condoned during his brief tenure as Warchief it's actually quite illuminating that Vol'jin saw that part of Garrosh so clearly before Garrosh himself was fully unmasked.

no it isn't, saying u'll backstab someone doesn't emply any of what u said, and pushing garrosh to tyranny and paranoia doesn't make u right, as I said before, u can't say Vol'jin - or anyone - was right about Garrosh being 'bad' because everyone treated him like that since day one, Garrosh was pushed in that direction, and Vol'jin threat is a coward non-horde threat, if he wanted to threat him and show all u saying about disloyalty, he could easily challenge in honor Mak'gora as horde (used to) do, not attack from back

What I'm saying is that at the point that it was already decided that he was going to be an enemy to even horde players, he hadn't done anything wrong at that point. Only at the very end did they start pulling shit out of nowhere to justify it.

Even going to Orgrimmar to take him down, I felt like I was betraying him, forced to join Vol'jin's rebellion.

TBH if there was option I'd never attack Orgrimmar, in fact I'd be on Garrosh side defending my capital from alliance PIGS and their allies, then after we done with all those non-horde invaders we can settle it down between each other, probably Mak'gora challenge to Garrosh (and since Garrosh is one of top warrios, die, but do it with honor IS the horde way) or something
That fits horde far more than this bullshit 'rebellion' thing, Horde should never side with 'alliance' against another horde, no matter how evil tyrant that horde became, EVER, first kill our enemies (alliance in that case), then we can attack each others if we want, and really prefer Mak'gora's way, as Saurfang said himself in the trial of Garrosh

I am just happy Horde is going back to been the "Bad Guys". Cata Garrosh was the perfect horde. Tried to trade with the night elves. When the Night Elves said no they took it by force.

Yeah I LOVED that too

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Which is retarded don't you think? If you go to the corner store as a kid and the owner refuses to sell you alcohol you start invading the store or kill the owner?

wood is literally life or death for orcs, as stated many times in many official lore sources, wood is used to make houses to actually live, without it, orcs die, and guess whose fault that orcs don't have tree? (hint, check wc3 TFT extra campaign, when alliance cut down every tree possible from Durotan)

[Arrashi]

Yes. Sylvanas ran away from everything. For example: She ran from the Legion. And now, she's bombing her own city, and is also running away like a helpless piglet.

Garrosh never ran, even when cornered. Be like Garrosh.

FOR THE HORDE!

But garrosh horribly lost everything. And was remembered as coward and murderer.

Also, he ran. To another dimension. So that eclipses all sylvanas setbacks.

[Aucald]

Yes but threaten with direct assault is the normal for orcs, they consider face to face combat is honorable and the right way to do things, Vol'jin didn't say the same things, he threatened to backstab him, also in the story it was obvious that Garrosh 'advisers' were the one who started this mistrust relation, not him, if Vol'jin wanted to actually fix not ruin it even more, he should noticed that Thrall 'advisers' first task were to disobey Garrosh in everything it seemed
I'm not a Garrosh support to be clear, Garrosh ruined the family-united horde and until now it didn't heal, Garrosh became obvious tyrant, but I don't turn blind eye on who ruined Garrosh either (mainly bad writing)

Yes, Garrosh threatened Vol'jin with death *because Vol'jin criticized him*. That was it, it was just just a straight-up escalation to Mak'gora with one of Garrosh's assigned advisors (who Thrall had instructed him to heed concerning matters of State) over having his tack criticized. Vol'jin's threat also wasn't about backstabbing - he wanted Garrosh to fear what would be coming, and he wanted Garrosh to know that he would fire the arrow the killed him. This isn't backstabbing insofar as I understand it, he wanted Garrosh to stew in fear and anxiety before death was delivered.

Yeah but we have official blizzard statement that Zalzane was actually weak and faked his death multiple times, Zalazane 'power' was cheating death, not powerful assault, u can't do much if ur real power is just hard to kill, they killed many 'zalazane' only to find later they were zombie heads, nothing in the official wow page about zalazane fall says he was that powerful, in fact if we go to the non-canon RPG books he will be far more powerful than the official lore show

Zalazane was powerful enough that a legion of Horde veterans headed by Vol'jin was insufficient to kill him - in the absence of direct information that's plenty of power already. The part of his clones dying in his stead is just a way to explain away the old low-level quests that concerned killing him, reconciling them with the most current story-arc involving the freeing of the Echo Isles.

U just said he was questioning if he stays loyal to horde or not, and no his stay was way too much that even some ppl in book told him (I think it was the 'human' friend hunter), he was the leader of the so-called rebellion, yet as 'leader' he avoided leading it for long time, if he wants to heal then he should stop bullshit about horde first, and admit that Vol'jin first then horde or whatever

He was questioning his loyalty because the Horde tried to kill him - if someone didn't question their loyalty at that point they would be a complete idiot. His stay was lengthened because the location he was convalescing at was under attack by the Zandalari and Mogu, and he took up the mantle of protector out of necessity. During his stay and the events that followed he came to understand that Garrosh was not the Horde, and that the Horde he once followed could still exist if Garrosh were removed from power - and that was the nascent core of what would become his insurrection and lead to the siege of Orgrimmar. No less than Thrall himself admits that Vol'jin's wisdom in this particular sense was what made it necessary for him to become Warchief.

no it isn't, saying u'll backstab someone doesn't emply any of what u said, and pushing garrosh to tyranny and paranoia doesn't make u right, as I said before, u can't say Vol'jin - or anyone - was right about Garrosh being 'bad' because everyone treated him like that since day one, Garrosh was pushed in that direction, and Vol'jin threat is a coward non-horde threat, if he wanted to threat him and show all u saying about disloyalty, he could easily challenge in honor Mak'gora as horde (used to) do, not attack from back

Garrosh wasn't pushed in that direction at all - his exchange with Vol'jin illustrates that pretty clearly. Garrosh brooked no criticism and no rebuke, he was completely unable to accept any viewpoint that ran counter to his own. He was so inflexible in his nature that he exiled Vol'jin and dueled to the death with Cairne Bloodhoof because of it (even though the duel was enacted by Cairne it was prompted by Garrosh's delight in the deaths of the Druids in Ashenvale). The seeds of Garrosh's unmaking were always present in him, and his sheer inability to accept other viewpoints led him to surround himself with yes-men like Malkorok, creating his own little echo-chamber that insulated him so much that he eventually lost touch with reality itself. The position of Warchief in Thrall's vision of the Horde is not automatically an autocratic role - they are a leader of a diverse and united people, and they rule as long as they hold the loyalty of those people. Garrosh lost that loyalty and was deposed because of it.

TBH if there was option I'd never attack Orgrimmar, in fact I'd be on Garrosh side defending my capital from alliance PIGS and their allies, then after we done with all those non-horde invaders we can settle it down between each other, probably Mak'gora challenge to Garrosh (and since Garrosh is one of top warrios, die, but do it with honor IS the horde way) or something

That fits horde far more than this bullshit 'rebellion' thing, Horde should never side with 'alliance' against another horde, no matter how evil tyrant that horde became, EVER, first kill our enemies (alliance in that case), then we can attack each others if we want, and really prefer Mak'gora's way, as Saurfang said himself in the trial of Garrosh

Domination and dominion is not the Horde is - Vol'jin and the revolutionaries (the majority of the Horde itself) recognized this and reacted to Garrosh's growing tyranny and his exclusionary "True Horde" philosophy. The brief alliance Vol'jin made with the Alliance was a matter of convenience and necessity, Garrosh had a fortified position that was well-defended and the revolutionaries were at an automatic disadvantage besieging such an imposing structure as Orgimmar. As they had a common enemy in Garrosh the brief union of the forces was sufficient to push through the gates of Orgrimmar and into Garrosh's bunker in the Underhold. It was an alliance of convenience that was dissolved as soon as Garrosh was taken care of.

Saurfang believes much in the ancient Orcish notion that "might makes right." He is fortunately an honorable soul at his core, but he doesn't really understand that might is a tool that can be used for a variety of reasons, not all of them right or good. Gul'dan was also mighty in his way, and look at the path he took. Garrosh too was a peerless and mighty warrior, and his path would've led to the ruination of Azeroth.

[Dudas]

Wood is literally life or death for orcs, as stated many times in many official lore sources, wood is used to make houses to actually live, without it, orcs die, and guess whose fault that orcs don't have tree? (hint, check wc3 TFT extra campaign, when alliance cut down every tree possible from Durotan)

Yet I see not a single wood house in all of the new Ogrimmar. What I see instead are spikes on walls, forges that produce weapons and armors made of metal. So the wood that Garrosh wanted wasn't for the housing of the horde races... it was to pump up his forges for the war machine and provide weapons for the complete imbecils and stupid warmongers that followed his tyrannical "leadership".

So from the standpoint of a night elf why would I ever give you wood? So you can make weapons and invade me? You think that if the night elves would've given him the wood he wouldn't have made weapons to conquer lands?

Be serious your argument is a joke. Yes Ogrimmar was in a rough shape. And you as the "competent leader" instead of finding solutions that don't endager you, your race and your allies even more than they already are, choose war...

[Darth-Piekus]

I never understood what was the point of removing Garrosh if they are gonna repeat the same thing with Sylvannas. They could do the same thing with Garrosh at the helm.

[Trassk]

I never understood what was the point of removing Garrosh if they are gonna repeat the same thing with Sylvannas. They could do the same thing with Garrosh at the helm.

I think the 'logic' these devs are using it "Well we can't repeatedly have one leader cause war and tension and screw things up for their faction, that would annoy people, so best thing is to do it once, wait, and have another one do it again, give breathing room, rinse and repeat"

This leads me to think Saurfang will be warchief next, then gallywix, then Baine, then some new asshole who they plugged into the story to fill the role.

[Gottalot]

I'm all down with Sylvanas and got the bitchs back. Garrosh was and still is fail.

[Wildberry]

Yet I see not a single wood house in all of the new Ogrimmar.

Okay, so ignoring the fact that gameplay=/=lore, here you go:

Plenty of structures, if you actually bother too look around have either wooden frames, or are furnished with wood from the inside.

Beyond that, though, "The Shattering" makes it perfectly clear that Orgrimmar was dependent upon Ashenvale. Not just for lumber either (though the text specifically highlights this with regard to concerns of shelter), but for hunting rights and food. Without trade, Orgrimmar's citizenry was literally starving.

So from the standpoint of a night elf why would I ever give you wood? So you can make weapons and invade me? You think that if the night elves would've given him the wood he wouldn't have made weapons to conquer lands?

Considering "The Shattering" shows Garrosh upholding the treaty while his predecessor's diplomatic solution was still in progress? Yeah, sure, why not? The Night Elves traded with the Horde before. They severed trade after the Wrath Gate which the Horde (specifically the Orcs, who were most harmed) wasn't even responsible for.

you as the "competent leader" instead of finding solutions that don't endager you, your race and your allies even more than they already are, choose war...

There's nothing wrong with seizing resources when your people are starving, and every single diplomatic avenue has failed. But please, enlighten us as to what magical solution Garrosh could have pursued. I'm sure you're intelligent enough to see something we don't.

But you said it best, in closing:

serious your argument is a joke.

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I'm all down with Sylvanas and got the bitchs back. Garrosh was and still is fail.

The state of MMO-Champion brainlets.

[Goldielocks]

I honestly think that people say Garrosh did nothing wrong out of their hatred for Thrall. They'd be willing to slander him in any way possible, so they blame Thrall for throwing an inexperienced Garrosh into a leadership position and then killing him with magic.

As for Sylvanas, it all depends on if she goes off the deep end like Garrosh did. Garrosh didn't have self centered intentions; he just hated the Alliance and was an orc purist. Sylvanas however is very self centered and was even that way while alive. If her desire to remain alive and create new Forsaken overtakes her reasoning than she'll be exactly like Garrosh.

[Terongor]

I honestly think that people say Garrosh did nothing wrong out of their hatred for Thrall. They'd be willing to slander him in any way possible, so they blame Thrall for throwing an inexperienced Garrosh into a leadership position and then killing him with magic.

As for Sylvanas, it all depends on if she goes off the deep end like Garrosh did. Garrosh didn't have self centered intentions; he just hated the Alliance and was an orc purist. Sylvanas however is very self centered and was even that way while alive. If her desire to remain alive and create new Forsaken overtakes her reasoning than she'll be exactly like Garrosh.

Well Garrosh couldn't trust any other Horde leader. Vol'jin Threatened assasinate him by shooting an arrow, Cairne didn't believe him when he was telling truth and tried to kill and his son who is very much alike with his father. Well trusting Sylvanas... yeah.. no... After the Lor'themar who didn't do anything for the horde until he was forced and only sought benefits from joining the horde not the responsibilities like sylvanas forcing him to join the Northrend Campaign. That leave Gallywix who was prepared to sell his own people to slavery.

Garrosh had one who threatened kill him with a cold planning voice(not saying it when he was overcome with emotion like anger which could be taken then as not meaning it) Son of a man who tried to kill him because he didn't trust his innocence and his son who held a grudge, two people who only sees his people are use to them and one person who seeks only to benefit. How could he trust any of them? They caused Garrosh to distrust all of them back and going his purist ways. Its partly fault of Thrall 2 out of 3 people who said would advice him tried or threatened to kill him. Also what we know Eitrigg the third didn't even advice him at all.

I wouldn't say Garrosh didn't do anything wrong, but he had good reasons.

[sillag]

garrosh ended up like xe'ra where they both got the plug pulled on them because so many people hated them. he had the potential not only to be a good guy but to be the greatest hero of wow. just imagine if we had all spent some time making sure he didnt go sha-crazy.

first the vale would still be around. no siege of orgrimmar so nazgrim would still be alive. the horde doesnt need to steal the bell so they never sneak into darnassus and jaina never loses it against the blood elves. then when the legion shows up you know garrosh doesnt go down in one hit like vol'jin did. he would be down there next to varian while everyone else escaped and the cinematic would have been a lot cooler. the alliance and horde wouldn't have the confusing retreat thing that for some reason sparks another world war. sylvanas wouldnt be warchief and probably everyone would remember garrosh and varian fighting together and it would lead to an example between the alliance and horde and world peace would follow

so you see ultimately its all thralls fault for putting him in the big boy chair and leaving him knowing he was a meathead.

[Wildberry]

world peace

The best thing Garrosh did was stamp this silly concept out for a few expansions.

[Jastall]

garrosh ended up like xe'ra where they both got the plug pulled on them because so many people hated them. he had the potential not only to be a good guy but to be the greatest hero of wow. just imagine if we had all spent some time making sure he didnt go sha-crazy.

first the vale would still be around. no siege of orgrimmar so nazgrim would still be alive. the horde doesnt need to steal the bell so they never sneak into darnassus and jaina never loses it against the blood elves. then when the legion shows up you know garrosh doesnt go down in one hit like vol'jin did. he would be down there next to varian while everyone else escaped and the cinematic would have been a lot cooler. the alliance and horde wouldn't have the confusing retreat thing that for some reason sparks another world war. sylvanas wouldnt be warchief and probably everyone would remember garrosh and varian fighting together and it would lead to an example between the alliance and horde and world peace would follow

so you see ultimately its all thralls fault for putting him in the big boy chair and leaving him knowing he was a meathead.

I don't understand this idea that it's Thrall's fault. Yeah, he shouldn't have chosen Garrosh considering the state the Horde was in, but how was he supposed to know the guy would end up being literally Orc Hitler? Can Garrosh not be held responsible for his own actions, whatever they are?

[sillag]

The best thing Garrosh did was stamp this silly concept out for a few expansions.

but now u see that had he lived he would inevitably have brought world peace. all current wars are because garrosh died.

[Notshauna]

I'm not a Garrosh fan, I disliked him in literally every expansion outside of Cataclysm, but I feel like Sylvanas is in a similar situation as Garrosh was. Enough people dislike them to make Blizzard ignore core character traits in order to make them overly villainous. Garrosh lost his honor and Sylvanas has lost her sense.