Battle for Lordaeron Lore [spoilers]

[Magnagarde]

What an awful choice of wording then, because you came off as your usual self, more interested in what you think the story should be rather than what it actually is.

You repeatedly have tried to make it sound like a majority.

Yeah, because saying "they" and then quoting a paragraph which says "many" and "not all" clearly means I want to say that.

[mickybrighteyes]

We're not talking about trolls versus humans. We're talking about undead humans versus living humans because some think that - storywise -
undead humans have more "legitimacy" than living humans after killing said living humans and taking their right to throw in their ten cents.

well the undead ones still exist in the region and are maintaining a functioning society... some people are sitting here saying that the people who fled over a decade back have the right to come back and push a group out of their homes because they (the live ones) lived their before it went to shit.

[Magnagarde]

and order Garithos and his forces dead while displaying a great lack of interest in anything that didn't help her some how attain vengeance.

Which also happen to be from Lordaeron and part of the nation which apparently chose her to lead them, except they didn't because she had them killed off.

[mickybrighteyes]

Which also happen to be from Lordaeron and part of the nation which apparently chose her to lead them, except they didn't because she had them killed off.

Nevermind that this remnant force was going to be destroyed regardless of her actions because the leadership was running it into the ground. They only got into the city because of her to begin with.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Which also happen to be from Lordaeron and part of the nation which apparently chose her to lead them, except they didn't because she had them killed off.

On the contrary, the Forsaken nation of Lordaeron did choose her, no matter which way you try to spin this, Sylvanas "belongs" in Lordaeron as it's Queen. Just like if the Alliance successfully hold onto it it will "Belong" to them.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Yeah, because saying "they" and then quoting a paragraph which says "many" and "not all" clearly means I want to say that.

It's almost as if your consistent attempts to bend the story have me naturally doubting you when you use vague wording.

[ello]

We're not talking about trolls versus humans. We're talking about undead humans versus living humans because some think that - storywise -
undead humans have more "legitimacy" than living humans after killing said living humans and taking their right to throw in their ten cents.

I think they have a better claim than Stormwind, what with them being the actual citizens of Lordaeron that are still living/unliving. But it's all ultimately meaningless because there is nobody to enforce these laws, otherwise all land would indeed be troll land.

[Mehrunes]

It's pretty clear alliance attack Lordaeron because they have an azerite weapon in their basement.

Ah, another clairvoyant Alliance genius.

I'm not wrong though, when blizz changed Sylvannas so her midriff was no longer exposed there was multiple threads up moaning about it, and logically - most Sylvannas fans are Horde players

Given how most people complained about it on grounds of political correctness and not faction affiliation, yup, that's totally what happened.

Someone is triggered.

Sylvannas' goal is literally to annihilate the alliance and you're saying that WE'RE the fanatical lot?!

First of all, you pulled the part about annihilation out of your ass. Hell, even the Alliance is a falsification. The book preview talked about Stormwind specifically. Secondly, given how your kind flailed in the exact same manner for like a decade before the Before the Storm preview, i.e. this behavior has nothing to do with that plot development, yes, you are the fanatical lot.

Oh, theres so much irony.

You have a WEAPON IN YOUR BASEMENT, that probably can bring the alliance to it's knee's.

First of all, repeating something you pulled out of your ass in your previous post doesn't magically make it true. Secondly, Alliance has super weapons as well. Like, I dunno, the Vindicaar.

Yet we're the the conquerors?

Aside from the aforementioned fact that you pulled the basement nonsense out of your ass, yes, conquering enemy territory makes you conquerors regardless of what your justification for the conquest was. This isn't rocket science.

So much hypocrisy. Lordaeron was a human civilization, taking what was ours is right.

This idea is dogshit tier logic. Humans aren't a monolith. Humans from nation X aren't entitled to land of humans from nation Y. Especially when that nation no longer exists. And most of its former citizens are still the local population. Stormwind also has no dynastic rights to Lordaeron for what we know.

That's just a plus side to the fact that we had to do it to stop the horde from annihilating us.

And yet from what we know so far, it's once again the Alliance that starts the fight. So taking your earlier arguments into consideration, the idea that you are poor and victimized and not conquerors because the Horde has certain weapons is simply laughable and pathetic in the light of Alliance being the aggressors.

Which part of that is wrong? Go back to when they revealed the new models and check the forums for that time. I'm not always wrong, but the typical first response of the insecure is to try and frame their opponent in the light that suggests they are unreliable. The true deliverer here is your cringe-fest of your superiority complex and 4chan-tier mentality. No one finds you funny.

You have yet to actually prove your claim with anything of value rather than your meaningless "those players are totally Horde because I say so", so I wouldn't climb onto the high ground under those circumstances if I were you.

[Raetary]

So much hypocrisy. Lordaeron was a human civilization, taking what was ours is right.

it isnt "ours".


stormwind has no claim over lordaeron.
hell, the people the land belongs to even still live there.

[Mehrunes]

Its just interesting to observe the many ways alliance fans do their mental gymnastics to fit their headcanon to the lore. They either make things up, conveniently forget what actually has taken place or just ignore parts that doesnt please them.

Is playing alliance really that boring of a chore that you have to make up for it by going completely bonkers all the time no matter the topic. I havent seen this level of mania and mass psychosis from horde side par odd few Sylvanas fans or trolling Garrosh did nothing wrong players. So how about dial your fanaticism down a notch eh?

This is why we need upvotes. Also, remember how scientists used Hakkar debuff event to study the human behavior? I'd say this behavior right here is a reason for them to pay attention to Warcraft again. It's bound to be a scientific goldmine.

Not to mention the fact you accuse anyone of fanboyism is rich considering your lack of objectivity on a wide range of topics.

Lemme guess, the main topic would be Sylvanas. Where all that @Friendlyimmolation does is correcting Sylvanas Victimization Squad on their unending shitbarrage of headcanon. Never mind the fact where he agrees she does evil deeds when the topic is what she has actually done and not what she has done only in the minds of certain Alliance geniuses.

I said it before a few times, but I'll say it again. The above bit is what's most idiotic about this. There's plenty of actual canon material to use against Sylvanas. So where the fuck does this inane need to create fanfiction (even when it runs contrary to lore that has been clarified by goddamn Word of God) in order to make an argument about Sylvanas doing evil things even come from?

I've time and time again repeated I'm not an Alliance fanboy - I like both Alliance and the Horde, what I dislike and what I think really drags forums down is the zealotry of Sylvannas fans, they simply cannot take any different opinion.

Yeah, that's totally supported by your actual posts. Also, "cannot take any different opinion". "Cannot take any headcanon peddling in a forum dedicated to actual lore." Do try to spot the difference.

Plus I don't think I can tell the future I make educated guesses - the only time I've been wrong is when I said the Alliance will control all of EK in BFA, which to be honest - could very well be true.

Except your "educated guesses" from the very start ran contrary to the information about BfA that we have so far. And yet when confronted with said information, including Blizzard quotes on the matter, in all your educated brilliance you double down on your educated guesses rather than reevaluating them.

Also the person you replied to was correct - a Sylvannas fan calling an Alliance fan fanatical is in fact ironic considering she has the most defensive, zealous and toxic fanbase in the game.

Obviously it's totally not the eternally victimized crybabies that see HORDE BIAS COVFEFE everywhere (with the primary example somehow being Blizzard fixing in Cata the actually observable and countable Alliance bias of unequal zone distribution from Vanilla), straw-man people into oblivion to fuel their victim complex, feel the inane need to conjure ungodly amount of headcanon because they can't deal with the lore as it is, simply don't register lore that's inconvenient to said headcanon and who scream about TEH CIRCLEJERK boogeyman when there is more than one person pointing out the inaccuracies of their headcanon to them (or, if the topic of disagreement is Sylvanas, hurrdurr about people fapping to her).

I mean I consider myself an Alliance fanboy with a substantial bias towards the blue side even though I occasionally go Horde to play with friends, but even I think this is a bit of an odd claim.

Many of the Forsaken inhabiting Tirisfal and the Undercity are the former citizens of Lordaeron so technically it belongs to them.

Obviously they're now allied with the enemy of the Alliance that we're at war with so besieging and capturing it makes some sense especially since it's been something a lot of older Alliance fans have been clamoring for for years, but I hardly see how it's objectively "right" to take Lordaeron from its original inhabitants(who are now undead) simply because it was once part of the original Alliance of kingdoms.

Seems like a strange thing to feel like the Alliance is entitled to, but maybe that's just me.

Holy shit, an Alliance poster (even self-proclaimed biased fanboy at that) that doesn't magically become unable to comprehend the basics of international politics/laws of how alliances and land rights work? I didn't know unicorns played WoW

Please vacate all territories, formerly owned by trolls then. Which means pretty much every human territory of today.

https://d1u5p3l4wpay3k.cloudfront.ne...3bdd85a466cae0

This isn't even what Vynestra argued. They argued that humans are entitled to formerly human territory just on the grounds of them being humans. Even though Stormwind humans have zero right to Lordaeron lands. Amani on the other hand actually owned Lordaeron in the past.

and I'm not changing my story, for the time being, what I'm saying is not true at this point in time - however the way I see the evidence I believe that's what will happen over the course of BFA, if I'm wrong so be it.

But you presenting it in this way is already you changing your story... Also, all the evidence paints exactly the opposite picture.

I have never made the "fap to Sylvannas lul" point

Yeah, you only tried to make a point out of people criticizing Sylvanas' model change and made unsupported claims about it being her rabid fans doing it. So much better.

I just believe she is a shit character with people who are far to zealous and defensive about any little thing you say about her. I love Anduin, I think he's the future of WoW, he gets shit on all the time - do I care? I mean if it's based on something that's incorrect then maybe I'll say why I think that criticism is unfounded (people laughing at someone for crying for summing a huge holy spell for example) but if I got as worked up as Sylvannas fans got everytime someone said something I didn't like, I'd be permanently angry on this site, as it happens I never have been.

Just lol at the part in bold. The thing in bold has been said to you and your ilk time and time again. And when you lot then cover your ears in "lalala I can't hear you" fashion, retreat back to your fanfiction and screech it out for over a decade it becomes kinda irritating.

You've joined in May 2017. If you stick around, you'll get used to a specific group of around four to five users being that way.

Here we can see an Alliance genius with eternal victim complex and zero self awareness in its natural habitat of flailing around about their version of TEH CIRCLEJERK, pretending that them constantly regurgitating headcanon and some utter bullshit about Universal Values™ has nothing to do with them being corrected every time they make a post and with their fanfiction not being welcome in a lore forum.

Your arguement is still voided by the fact that Sylvanas has got nothing to do with Lordaeron in the first place. She is an undead high elf that should be in Quel'thalas, not Lordaeron.

Except Sylvanas was incorporated into the Scourge when Arthas lorded over it as king of Lordaeron that saw Scourge as his subjects that he cared for in his fucked up way, then led a civil war against him, succeeded and was accepted as a leader by the people of Lordaeron she freed from his grasp.

[Arrashi]

I never read your replies, TL: DR and all that

And yet you have to quote entire thing becasue replacing everything with *snip* is too outlandish idea

[Deleted]

Pretty sure Horde players were the ones who got mad that Blizzard made a corpse's armor less skimpy - and you call the Alliance creepy.

You are comparing the Alliance revanchism and bloodthirst from part of the Alliance playerbase with Sylvanas's armor? Really?

[Deleted]

It wasn't vacated though; she either killed them or forced them out, if they managed to get away alive that is.

The Bolsheviks also killed and forced the Whites out of Russia. That means the Soviet Union was no-entity?

- - - Updated - - -

Do you just only read the parts you can make a point on? Go back and read it carefully this time

What part? I quoted your entire post.

[OIS]

Liandrin had her nose so far up Thalyssra's ass she could smell the mana crystals on her tongue.

I ship it.

[Deleted]

No you didn't, you put a meaningless comment on a day old argument no one cares about anymore.

I cared, therefore I debated it. It's how it works.

The Alliance playerbase isn't bloodthirsty, but me saying that doesn't matter because you won't agree.

Part of the Alliance playerbase IS bloodthirsty and it's well known ever since WotLK. Considering I'm Alliance also and I don't have ravaging cravings for "dismantle the Horde" nor "reclaim Lordaeron", it's pretty obvious the difference.

I was arguing against the notion that the Alliance playerbase are somehow a bunch of creeps when it was the Horde playerbase getting mad when they covered Sylvannas' skin up

Crying for "WAR" everytime is more creepy and borderline lunatic than talking about Sylvanas's armor, just saying. And you are that keep comparing it.

[Deleted]

Are you talking about the actual Alliance or it's playerbase? Do you know where you are? How are you typing? Nothing you're saying makes sense I'm afraid

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe it's an elaborate debating strategy

Nope, it's pretty much you that never made much sense since the beginning of the thread. Let's see why:

- Heavy headcanon
- Clairvoyance about BfA
- Whatabouyism regarding Sylvanas's armor
- And now ad hominem

You really want to continue?

[Mehrunes]

She killed the Lordaeron's living that fought alongside her to have their home back, breaking the deal she made with them.

Which is irrelevant to the point you made.

My reply was also strictly addressing the fact that it was said how the Forsaken are from Lordaeron, whereas the most striking figure of them actually isn't. The ones who disagree with her or do not follow her orders end up like Koltira and those who helped liberate Lordaeron have been killed by her.

And Sylvanas not being from Lordaeron doesn't change the fact that the majority of Forsaken are, does it now? Also, only Koltira ended up like Koltira. So yay for more headcanon to fuel your narrative. And Koltira made an unauthorized deal with the invading enemy that cost Forsaken lives when Alliance *cough* broke the deal they made with him *cough*. I.e. he committed treason. Oh noes, Sylvanas imprisoned someone who she had the right to execute given the scope of his betrayal. What an argument you got here.

The ones she didn't kill or didn't tie up against an iron maiden for not doing what an undead high elf, that wants to rule human lands so badly, wants them to do.

Projecting Garithos who was never her follower or Koltira who was a traitor and a singular case is a godawful argument. There are plenty of Forsaken disagreeing with Sylvanas. Even newly risen undead that refused to follow her.

The ones she didn't kill, yes. There were living who liberated Lordaeron, who were then killed off by her so there's nobody that can contend with her.

Killing off the living and retaining the zealous ones and the ones that fear her can hardly be called a justifiable claim.

This still doesn't change the fact that Forsaken are from Lordaeron and chose Sylvanas as their leader. Try harder, maybe you'll manage to make a valid counterargument against that before the heat death of the universe.

She actually ascended silently. It's not like they had an election. It also changes a lot because she removed all those that wouldn't have her through force, which is a hallmark of tyrannical ascension.

Now that they fear her less as she is absent, the Desolate council formed and has shown that many disagree with her. It took removing her from Undercity to make this possible.

She organized them during the Civil War in the Plaguelands, often freed them personally and they willingly followed her. Here's your acceptance. And they also willingly helped her to capture Undercity by force. And how is Desolate Council evidence of Forsaken feeling any different towards Sylvanas? They ruled the city in her abscence and they disagree with her on one thing. Forsaken were never a monolith, they disagree with Sylvanas on things.

Also, you pulled their numbers being "many" out of your ass. The preview only said that many on the council disagree with her. Given how we don't know how numerous it is and how it's extremely unlikely it's large (because efficiency is a thing), that does not support the claim that many Forsaken disagree with her.

I'm starting to think heat death of the universe is way too optimistic a deadline for you.

Not really. The vacuum allowed them to get their ideas across publically and gather support. They actually disagree with the path she's taken them in terms of immortality. It's all in the small preview we've got to read from Blizzcon.

Nothing in the book preview supports this whatsoever. There has been no mention of anyone other than the Desolate Council (not all of it even) expressing such sentiment, so there couldn't have been any mention of them gathering support for this sentiment. There was no mention of them publicly doing anything at all in terms of what you talk about. Hell, the preview didn't even say they actually completely disagree, Nathanos clarified that the Council (again, not all of it) holds reservation about it. You're once again engaged in headcanon crafting.

Are we going to talk about that crater of water in the hills of far western Tirisfal? What happened???

On topic. I don't get how Arathi is to stop the Belves from helping. It is literally going out of their way, to pass through Arathi, instead of through EPL, WPL, or even Alterac. If Blizz goes with that, either, belves are dumb as rocks with tactics, or blizz is dumb as rocks with tactics, OR maybe some bs like "The alliance has an impenetrable defense at the Bulwark!"

You have a premise of a faction with historically weaker navy performing a successful naval invasion right in front of enemy capital and not only not getting sank before they land, not only not getting slaughtered during the landing, but successfully besieging said enemy capital (when the Horde was prepared for it and other races were already in the region, their superior fleet included becasue they had to get there somehow) and you really need to ask that question?

Killing everyone from Lordaeron who doesn't want her legitimizes her claim to Lordaeron, because whatever undead Lordaeronians are left want her?

Yay for more headcanon crafting and projecting Garithos onto everyone. There were plenty other surviving humans that didn't want her as the leader and whom she didn't kill before ascending to throne (and even in the cases of people whom she killed afterwards it's been people that started shit with the Forsaken or the Horde). But they were the minority, so go figure.

That means she got legitimized through tyrannical methods, automatically voiding the "but Lordaeron's people chose her!" mindbend. I'm not making it look bad because I don't have to make it look bad; it is bad by definition. You reckognize it too, which is why you're trying so hard to invalidate what is obviously a valid statement.

Except your proof of tyrannical methods was her removing everyone who doesn't want her, which as per above, is a fucking lie. And you talk about mindbends. Also, in regards to those who she did kill, she was supported in it by her people. Who whether you like it or not, outnumbered any remaining living Lordaeronians. Also, you claiming your cherry-picking lore butchering to be a valid point doesn't make it a valid point. And the idea that Friendly invalidating your bullshit is him recognizing your bullshit to be true is devoid of logic.

That's the same as if you killed everyone who disagrees with you in this thread and then said how everyone clearly agrees with you. Saying she was chosen to lead, but then aknowledging she killed off and destroyed anyone who wouldn't want her, automatically voids all legitimacy to the process of chosing.

Given how this is still incorrect due to your dishonest cherry-picking, yay for another inane comparison from you! What happens if you don't make one every third post? I'm curious.

Also, even if there were no other remaining living Lordaeronians than Garithos' group, the Forsaken still outnumbereded them. The majority supported Sylvanas regardless of whether or not she would have killed Garithos and his men. And they supported killing Garithos and his men too.

technically, Turalyon has as much claim to Lordaeron as Sylvanas... I'd wager LESS since she effectively took over a conquered city that was vacated by it's residents.

He has zero claim since it was a monarchy and he's not of royal blood. Sylvanas led a civil war against Arthas after she was forcible made into his subject and after it was successful forged her own state from the ashes of Menethil's Lordaeron through right of conquest (with popular support backing her legitimacy). So yeah, he has much less of a claim.

I mean if you don't care about the outcome of the argument why have it?

How on earth did you get not caring about the outcome of the argument from what @Friendlyimmolation said there? He only said he cares about his posts being of value to other people in PSA manner (which is an outcome), because you lot will stay in your headcanon safe space bubble no matter what.

Blizzard did indeed say that, of this I was not aware when I make that speculation, which is why I have conceded I was wrong, I do personally believe going forward BFA will move to have the Alliance and Horde take more land from each other - unlike you, when I'm wrong I'll admit it rather than just stop replying and pretend you don't exist, which I recall you doing many times in the past.

Except you didn't concede you were wrong and all you said here is a lie to paint yourself in better light. When first (few times, that is) faced with what Blizzard said and showed, you just doubled down on your speculation being true. I mean, given your penchant for fanfiction I realize you may think it's possible to bend reality to fit what would be convenient for you, but it really isn't.

isn't arathi the next closest place to possibly make landfall with ships? but yeah... magical portal systems and air ships... overland route would be much better than going half way around teh continent. Maybe they could say that the plaguelands is still just too much for troops to simply march through in places or too many eyes and ears along the reclaimed pathways?

Arathi is the worst zone in the game to make landfall with ships. The only sea landing area is in the pirate cove that's littered with shipwrecks because of the reefs nearby, and the only path to the mainland from there is through a narrow pathl (that IIRC goes through a cave for a while). Other than that it's a cliff bonanza.

It wasn't vacated though; she either killed them or forced them out, if they managed to get away alive that is.

Since when were Garithos and his men the residents of the city? Arthas slaughtered the residents of the city when he came back from Northrend. They weren't the residents even afterwards because the moments before they were killed the city was captured from Dreadlords' forces.

It seems you failed to read yourself and are - as usual - calling others out on it. Here, have a read and realize that they do not want the immortality that she wants for them:

"Not all of them desire for themselves what you desire for them, my queen. Many on the Desolate Council harbor deep reservations." His face, still that of a dead man but better preserved due to an elaborate ritual she had ordered performed, twisted in a smile. "This is the peril you created when you gave them free will. They are now free to disagree."

Holy fucking shit this is beyond sad. So Friendly says that not everyone on the Council disagrees with her and you think a quote saying that many on the Desolate council disagree with her proves him wrong? Do you even know how words work? And this very quote runs contrary to your "correction" here. Them having deep reservation is not the same as them not wanting it. Also, do notice how it says squat about other Forsaken or the Council gathering political support for this idea.

So what kind of an arguement are you actually trying to make here? That the undead are first class citizens of Lordaeron and the living are second class citizens of it? This is some creepy type of apartheid arguement that you're trying to make here. Garithos and more importantly - all the living that he commanded into Lordaeron's liberation - mean jack shit, but the undead mean everything.

This is exactly why her decaying kind is being booted out of it.

Yeah, totally what he said

Once the liberation of Lordaeron from the Scourge happened however, she proceeded to kill all those who were left and who helped liberate it, breaking her promise given to the living of Lordaeron.

And in what language is "residents" the same as "people who helped liberate it"? Are Blood Elves, High Elves, Night Elves and the Kirin Tor residents of Suramar now?

The killing done before this is done by Arthas, KT and Sylvanas, after which she tried to kill Arthas as she regained control of herself. After that she fought the dreadlords and later on liberated Lordaeron with the help of the living citizen and troops from Lordaeron.

Yup, done by Sylvanas fer sure. Because after Arthas resurrected Sylvanas, she moved back in time and was used by Arthas to raze Lordaeron, which he did before he went to Quel'thalas.

[Deleted]

You really want to keep making stuff up?

Example of Headcanon:

Yes but in BFA, the Alliance takes ALL of EK up to the Ghostlands

Example of Clairvoyance:

Which lore-wise Alliance will win.

Example of Whataboutism:

Pretty sure Horde players were the ones who got mad that Blizzard made a corpse's armor less skimpy - and you call the Alliance creepy.

Anyone on this same thread can read it.

[Arrashi]

You really want to keep making stuff up? At least most people actually have a basis. I'm done playing this game with you - it's a lot less fun than normal when you clearly are just trying to shitpost, if you actually read my replies/ previous posts all your questions would be answered - I'm tired of repeating myself again and again because you're too lazy to just think.

Oh boy, the irony.

[Deleted]

I'm tired of repeating myself again and again because you're too lazy to just think.

Again, TL : DR

- - - Updated - - -

Why do you put pages of replies to day(s) old arguments on these threads? It's really hard to reply to any of that, I mean I suppose that's probably why. I see that wall of text and just shrug

One can't really make this up.