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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kapaya View Post
    How does a Blood DK have issues with Varimathras? Rune Tap each shadow hit or AMS it, literally immortal on that fight.
    Not even needed,we have enough health to just eat the hit and laugh it off


    Also to the OP
    Tanks should always start defensive,and then go more and more offensive during progression,to see their limit,if your warrior is doing it backwards and refuses to change,you need to have a talk with him

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by thebdc View Post
    Is he charging in alone? Then maybe he gets wrecked by the Taeshalach's Reach mechanic:
    It's most likely what this guy said. The fact is that on heroic and normal the boss doesn't do enough damage to matter if you are having this happen. On mythic he will destroy you.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by reyson View Post
    snip
    1)Indomitable is the noob warrior choice, Devastator provides more rage, which means more IPs.

    2)He is getting 1 shotted because he is running in alone and Aggramar attacks before he has any chance to pop Shield Block, generally for some reason Aggramar has an insanely fast swing at pull, and without Shield Block up, Aggramar will destroy him.

    Same even happens at Normal, you dont get 1 shotted, but charging in you go at 50% out of nowhere because his swing timer is -that- fast, and after that the HP bar never moves if you can play because he doesnt do enough damage to remove a recoverable 6mil IP shield.

    Shield Block is a Prot Warriors main reduction, NOT IGNORE PAIN.

    Have someone else pull Aggramar or make them walk in together instead of charging/leaping.

    3)Prot Warriors have this very annoying downtime of no-rage every once and awhile, used to happen a lot at the start of the expansion, now its more like once every 1.5-2mins were you just stand there and you cant do shit.

    That becomes problematic cause a good Prot Warrior might not require any healing for awhile especially with legendary braces, depending on the difficulty up to full 2 minutes and suddenly because of no Rage, no refreshing IP, you start getting hit and healers arent ready.

    4)Right now our DPS talents as Prot are also our survivability talents so no, he doesnt have wrong talents assuming he is playing Booming Voice + Anger Management.

    5)Never compare the faceroll bear tank with the other tanks ;p

    6)A Prot Warrior can be playing "offensive" if he has DPS trinkets or not gearing for enough mastery/Versa, whats his armory/wowprogress, or warcraftlog?
    Last edited by potis; 2018-01-28 at 12:54 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by reyson View Post
    Then why is he frequently getting one shotted when he first pulls the boss? If he needs extra rage to use SB or IP, why doesn't he use his T20 2pc for Berserkers Rage.

    Also if Indomitable isn't that answer, WHAT is the answer to him getting insta-gibbed on pull?
    A prot warrior can get to and maintain a full rage bar out of combat in about 60 seconds just spamming thunderclap on CD and intervening raid members over and over, while everyone is preparing for the pull. No particular talents or items needed.

    That means that there is no excuse for not having a maximised DOUBLE shield barrier AND shieldblock up on the pull, using heroic leap instead of charging so as to keep the boss from moving and getting behind you and backstabbing through shieldblock. Theres no boss in the game even in mythic mode who can "insta gib on pull" a correctly played prot warrior.
    Last edited by mrchee; 2018-01-28 at 03:24 AM.

  5. #25
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    Just echoing what everyone else here has said. A one-shot like that on a prot warrior is a mechanical issue, not talents or buff related.

  6. #26
    Talk to them and reason with them. They need to understand that guild kills and overall time efficiency matters more than their logs. Once progress is over and everyone is sufficiently geared, you can go for the orange-parsed logs.

    Juding by the talents though, I wouldn't say your warrior has the wrong ones? Then again, my guild has a trial one, so I wouldn't know enough to be certain about it. He also takes immense damage when he pulled Aggramar.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2018-01-28 at 05:40 AM.

  7. #27
    You need to get familiar with tank logs. You'll see how they autopiloted into whatever rotation gives them optimal *average* DPS and mitigation and ate something while on low resource/mitigation.

    I'll tell you how it is, because we have the same situation with our tanks. They like to fucking parse and they are completely responsible for quite many failed tries on our mythic progression runs because of this, all the while boasting about their performance.

    Orange on DPS+Heal is a deluded tank's view of efficiency. Because it means optimal play on the whole fight. And good tanking is optimal play on many specific, high danger parts of the encounter like boss skills, transitions etc. They don't understand what pooling resource means and that you do not autopilot while ignoring what is going to land on your head a few seconds from now.

    They read a shitty guide on noxxic or whatever and completely *misunderstood* what "Optimize for damage" means for a tank.

  8. #28
    Deleted
    I dont know much about tanks other then warrior, but it is damn fun to push 1 million dps single target, i think thats the purpose of a warrior tank, besides the moment your rage becomes low, that will be the moment that you potentially come into danger.

    Everything about set bonuses and talents screams nuke nuke keep ip up, what do you expect from a tank designed like that.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by reyson View Post
    I raid on two mythic teams, one working on Aggramar where we have a prot warrior running all offensive talents and parsing orange every fight, he also randomly gets one shotted by bosses (including Aggramar on pull frequently). Should he be running Indomitable and more defensive talents? He runs STR food and flask because it "apparently contributes to his Ignore Pain".

    Our Brewmaster and newly aquired, slightly undergeared BDK are working on Varimathras on our second team and have a serious problem staying alive, but again, they're not running things like High Tolerance and Purgatory. From what I understand (from what was discussed during the raid), BrM is the worst tank on this fight as they die from Stagger damage when they cannot be healed from his debuff. 90% of our wipes on Vari last night were due to tank deaths.

    Now I play all tank toons except monk as alts, so I don't do a heavy amount of research or have a heavy depth of knowledge about the class mechanics for mythic raiding, but maybe I am from an old school way of thinking that tanks shouldn't give a shit about their damage parse and spec into max defensive builds for progression, my bear has 15m hp with a stam flask for christ sakes, and that's running a meme M+ build with Lady+Fury+Galactic Guardian.

    And with our current gear level, our dps is blowing through bosses regardless of our tanks dps, so the only thing holding us back is mechanics and tank deaths.

    Who is right? How do I solve these unecessary, constant tank deaths that keep wasting everybody's time?
    Tell them to spec for 'not getting one-shot' or they're be replaced, that's how.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by olkani View Post
    I dont know much about tanks other then warrior, but it is damn fun to push 1 million dps single target, i think thats the purpose of a warrior tank, besides the moment your rage becomes low, that will be the moment that you potentially come into danger.

    Everything about set bonuses and talents screams nuke nuke keep ip up, what do you expect from a tank designed like that.
    High dps is great, except for when you die from 11m damage in the face, at which point you do no dps.
    Appreciate your time with friends and family while they're here. Don't wait until they're gone to tell them what they mean to you.

  10. #30
    half these people have no idea how warrior tanks works.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by reyson View Post
    He runs STR food and flask because it "apparently contributes to his Ignore Pain".
    Reading this comment, if accurate, it concerns me that your raid team (healers in particular) are actually carrying your Warrior tank if you're at 9/11 Mythic and he doesn't know that Prot warriors don't generate passive rage offensively anymore. Shield Slam, Thunderclap, and Devastator if talented all generate a fixed amount of rage. Personal suggestion: get an officer who knows their stuff to either work with him or find a replacement.

    Quote Originally Posted by reyson View Post
    Her reasoning was that she would lose a huge chunk of her health pool, which makes sense as she is slightly undergeared. If you think Rune Tap is still the way to go, even being undergeared then that's something I'll bring up tonight.
    While from a theoretical perspective Foul Bulwark does provide a maximum of 20% hp, in a raiding scenario that will only happen for the first couple of seconds after this tank taunts. A raid boss will eat through Boneshield stacks like nobody's business, so she can't really rely on spamming Marrowrend for health. At any rate, a non-bear tank in full Heroic ABT gear (ie. ready for Mythic) should have around 11-12M hp. If your Blood DK has less than that and it was the guild/raid team's decision to have her switch, the guild/raid team is going to want to help ensure that she clears heroic every week and gets several 15 or higher M+ in every week for gear if she's undergeared.

    Illo dicto, if she doesn't have the talent ring - which isn't the best for Blood anyway - but wants it so badly, it's on her to clear the full gamut of activities to farm legendary bad luck protection. Mythic World Tour weekly, emissary, EN/NH/TOS on every difficulty... even constantly sitting in the queue for random heroics while farming Argus chests.

    Quote Originally Posted by krl View Post
    I'll tell you how it is, because we have the same situation with our tanks. They like to fucking parse and they are completely responsible for quite many failed tries on our mythic progression runs because of this, all the while boasting about their performance.
    Quoted for absolute truth.

    My guild literally just fell apart because of a bunch of meterwhoring DPS; several people who pull 2M+ single target but ignored mechanics. I'm talking on the level of "set off 150-200 mines on Mythic High Command each and fucked up multiple grenades" or "didn't interrupt a single fucking imp on Portal Keeper" for an entire night's worth of pulls. And then the raid leader and two healers quit, and there went the guild. GG WP no re.
    Last edited by Nefarious Tea; 2018-01-28 at 04:35 PM.
    Cheerful lack of self-preservation

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal View Post
    If warrior needs Indomitable to stay alive, he should not play warrior... indomitable is dps AND survivability loss

    Most of the time warrior dies, it's personal mistakes with shield block/ pumping more rage into revenge instead of IP
    And yes, str increases IP strenght


    Purgatory won't save DK on Varimathras, and BRM shouldn't use high tolerance (it would kill him even more) instead learn how to pause stagger
    If you exclusively PuG as prot warrior, you can expect to be top heals in almost every group. You are not healed quickly before or after large hits, and your co tank regularly will do stuff like forget to taunt on vari or agg or Kin. Indomitable is fantastic in pugs because it let's you carry, hard.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by mrchee View Post
    A prot warrior can get to and maintain a full rage bar out of combat in about 60 seconds just spamming thunderclap on CD and intervening raid members over and over, while everyone is preparing for the pull. No particular talents or items needed.

    That means that there is no excuse for not having a maximised DOUBLE shield barrier AND shieldblock up on the pull, using heroic leap instead of charging so as to keep the boss from moving and getting behind you and backstabbing through shieldblock. Theres no boss in the game even in mythic mode who can "insta gib on pull" a correctly played prot warrior.
    Raid boss combat resets resources. Never bothered to test what warrior buffs get removed, but a warrior's rage 100% gets reset to 0 when first engaging a raid boss. This is easy to confirm in an LFR wing by sitting on 100 rage after the last trash pull prior to a boss.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefall View Post
    If you exclusively PuG as prot warrior, you can expect to be top heals in almost every group. You are not healed quickly before or after large hits, and your co tank regularly will do stuff like forget to taunt on vari or agg or Kin. Indomitable is fantastic in pugs because it let's you carry, hard.
    You don't need Indomitable to do this. At all.
    Last edited by The Cheat; 2018-01-28 at 04:43 PM.

  14. #34
    It's hilarious how many people don't even understand the tank specs OP mentioned and went along with him "talent it or replace them".

    They're dying because they're playing wrong. Not because of talents. The fact people think Purgatory or High Tolerance should be talented on Varimathras is literally real life LOL worthy. That's even ignoring how absurd it is to think a War should take indomitable.

    This thread has confirmed my beliefs on how clueless the community is on tanking. Yea bro, gonna take Purgatory on Varimathras when the only thing that can kill me makes me immune to healing. Yea bro, gonna have a bigger stagger DoT rolling on me and nothing to do about it while unhealable as a brewmaster. /facepalm.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cheat View Post
    Raid boss combat resets resources. Never bothered to test what warrior buffs get removed, but a warrior's rage 100% gets reset to 0 when first engaging a raid boss. This is easy to confirm in an LFR wing by sitting on 100 rage after the last trash pull prior to a boss.

    Edit:

    You don't need Indomitable to do this. At all.
    ...and you don't need Devastator to be at the ignore pain cap before every hit with kill potential. The "survivability" gained by devastator is either lost to overhealing, or would've been taken care of by your healers HoTs (so their throughput is lost to overhealing) and is comprised of weak sustained damage like weak melee hits that you don't need active mitigation for for the aforementioned reasons of HoTs and overhealing. Functionally, increasing your maximum HP does, as advertised, increase the size of hits you can take without dying.

    If that's worth it depend on how bad the group you're in is and what is bad about them. Devastator is decently more DPS.

    Its also worth remembering that the current reccomended tier set combination does reduce the value of Devastator by a little in the survivability department by giving you a fairly large chunk of your playtime (15-20% or more) where Shield Slam does not have a cooldown, or further shield slams cause rage capping. This is offset by devastator also helping to feed that combination, but again, quickly results in dumping rage into an already capped ignore pain buff at a time when you don't even need ignore pain in the first place.
    Last edited by Firefall; 2018-01-28 at 05:58 PM.

  16. #36
    This question goes no where, you'll get majority of the people who have never expierened tanking answer.

    It works both ways, Tanks are expected to do decent damage nowadays and we can, tanks are pretty fucking stupid damage, since the introduction of all the active mitigation cds and such tanks do not heavily rely on gear to survive anymore (sure gear helps but most of the time if you die to a 1 shot, you fucked up, no gear will save you, stop playing bad) - there are exceptions to this of course but it requires people to use common sense, 1st week mythic raiding end boss will most likely require full turtle gear.

    As a tank i always put as much as i can afford into DPS without it causing survivabiliy issues, the only boss that I've really died to pre christmas was Mythic dogs. while i could've went more defensive, it wouldn't of saved me because for some reason our Holy pala was not using any direct heals on the tanks (After arguing with the Officer who wasn't even in the raid and performs at the grey brackets as ret, we 1 shot it after the Hpala actually cast Flash of light/holy light a few times, they now 1 shot it weekly but i left after that raid due to the officers lack of knowledge).

    The way i see it is, if the deaths are consistent, it's probably a tank issue but just because the tanks dying dosen't mean it is, check logs, check actual healing to him because like i said on dogs, i was healed more by the OTHER sides healers (80k hots) than our Hpala, also check mitigation because again this could be the cause of all the deaths your tanks have and if it is, no gear will save them.

    If the tanks dying as a one off who cares, not being funny but DPS fuck up mechanically all the time and sometimes a tank might DERP, However since you said about your warrior getting 1 shot by Aggramar a lot, on pull, are you sure he isn't just charging in and taking both AA's due to not being near the other tank?

    Also i.m.o Purgatory is a weak and very shit talent, never take it, it has very few actual uses, you shouldn't take a talent that rewards bad play, Blood mirror is an actual DR.
    As for the Flask comment, Stamina flask is shit i.m.o with specific uses, for me it would be high magic damage fights / depending on your stam pool from your gear, think Maiden hammer solo soaks or something similar.

  17. #37
    Aggramar hits very hard and the warrior should consider using a good defensive trinket if he has issue living while mechanics are being accounted for. As people already mentioned before, having defensive gear won't save you if your tanks are not coordinated and he takes double hits from Taeshelach's Reach.

    Varimathras is a nightmare for BrM tank and you should consider using him as your 3rd tank as oppposed to one of your two face-tanks. High Tolerance does not help out on that fight at all since his melee damage is not threatening, and his shadow strike's healing immunity makes Stagger a liability and not an advantage. This is the same with Purgatory because you are immune to healing from Misery, so you are literally just delaying the death by 3 seconds. Blood Mirror will work much better as damage mitigation here. Blood DKs -can- get fucked by Varithams because he can choose to cast other spells, THEN melee you a few more times before he decide to use dark slash, and by then Rune Tap has fallen, but this is where you use your actual CDs and externals.

    ----------

    In general, tanks can and should be going offensive as long as they can survive without putting too much burden on healers. In most cases, putting on more offensive gear and/or talent actually just reduce the overhealing being thrown into you, and doesn't really increase the number of healer GCD you need. In those cases, why do you care about taking a few % more damage?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Veredyn View Post
    Reading this comment, if accurate, it concerns me that your raid team (healers in particular) are actually carrying your Warrior tank if you're at 9/11 Mythic and he doesn't know that Prot warriors don't generate passive rage offensively anymore. Shield Slam, Thunderclap, and Devastator if talented all generate a fixed amount of rage. Personal suggestion: get an officer who knows their stuff to either work with him or find a replacement.
    What else should he use? Stamina? The stamina flask gives prot warriors about 270k hp - less than impressive. The probability that you'll drop below 270k hp and not die is slim. Sure, you could also sport two stamina trinkets, but still, if you drop so low that stamina food/flask/gear will save you there's a fat chance someone fucked up.

    And yes, more strength = bigger IPs. IP is completely based on attack power (22.3*AP plus versatility, so it benefits from concordance proccs, also there's a procc based artifact trait that increases IP). The gain per IP you get from a strength isn't tremendous either, and will not save the day, but over the course of the fight it adds up.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by reyson View Post
    I raid on two mythic teams, one working on Aggramar where we have a prot warrior running all offensive talents and parsing orange every fight, he also randomly gets one shotted by bosses (including Aggramar on pull frequently). Should he be running Indomitable and more defensive talents? He runs STR food and flask because it "apparently contributes to his Ignore Pain".

    Our Brewmaster and newly aquired, slightly undergeared BDK are working on Varimathras on our second team and have a serious problem staying alive, but again, they're not running things like High Tolerance and Purgatory. From what I understand (from what was discussed during the raid), BrM is the worst tank on this fight as they die from Stagger damage when they cannot be healed from his debuff. 90% of our wipes on Vari last night were due to tank deaths.
    Funny enough my guild runs with a Prot Warrior and a Brewmaster Monk. One of the issues that happens seemingly randomly with Prot Warriors is that they absolutely suck ass at taking hits in the back, since all of their defensive shit is literally nullified and they can get one-shot by a simple melee hit. We've had instances where that happens even though it makes no sense that he would take a hit from the back if he's tanking the boss in front of him. It's kind of a bug as far as I can tell.

    Brewmasters really do suck at Varimathras. You have to run with a Discipline Priest to save him or not use a Brewamster there. Funnily enough Prot Warrior is very good at it since Ignore Pain is an absorb shield and it works perfectly fine over the no-heal debuff.

  20. #40
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Tell them to spec for 'not getting one-shot' or they're be replaced, that's how.

    - - - Updated - - -



    High dps is great, except for when you die from 11m damage in the face, at which point you do no dps.
    I agree but does this not count for every tank? without indomitable i am on 9,5 million hp, im fine, can push it more with some trinket swaps but i benefit way more from high haste then i do from stamina, i keep my ip up try and time it well and still have ls and sw for when my screen starts to flash, it works for me.

    The other issue being discussed is that tanks are watching the dps meter and high parses, and ye i tend to watch that aswell but on progression my play is more orientated around getting it done and the moment fights get boring im keen on pushing dps.

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