8.0 Warlock changes from Beta

[Feali]

It's probably intended to be a downgrade. Ofc some people like eing overpowered and will kick and scream when the nerf bat comes along.

Well they won't be around for much longer and switch to the next FotM class.

[Tabrotar]

It's *only* 40% because we have other things (like soul leech) propping us up. If we're too squishy, they'll probably buff us.

So much doomsaying over losing rediculous self heals, if we have to heal ourselves it should come at a dps cost, like everybody else.

RE SB vs DS: SB above 80% with DS execute always felt more appropriate.

RE the 'people just want to spam SB' thing. Most people deal with the aff's relatively low APM by refreshing DS early anyway.

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Afaik a lot of people clip DS to do just that.

Yeah they TOTALLY will buff us the same Blizz who said in that one QA that they will double down on our strength and then they swapped dark pact and demon skin...

I totally belive it.

[Maleific]

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Some people like being overpowered

10 characters

[Tabrotar]

10 characters

Wow really mature answer here.

Do you have something realible to say or can you just post such crap if someone askes you a question hm?

[Maleific]

Wow really mature answer here.

Do you have something realible to say or can you just post such crap if someone askes you a question hm?

That sarcasm constitutes a question?

I guess in regards to that shit post. They let us choose our mitigation. They essentially let us pick portal for raiding (where cc wasn't required) and let us have burning rush to avoid damage or demon skin/ dark pact to tank it.

[Tabrotar]

That sarcasm constitutes a question?

I guess in regards to that shit post. They let us choose our mitigation. They essentially let us pick portal for raiding (where cc wasn't required) and let us have burning rush to avoid damage or demon skin/ dark pact to tank it.

Soo where was that DOUBLING DOWN on our strengh (which was just as a lil reminder tankiness btw) when you CUT DOWN our tankiness...

Seems like i (and many many others after they said that and did another thing) and you (which somehow also seems to be Blizz idea wonder why...) have a different understanding what did means.

[FertsBlert]

I am very concerned, to me it looks like they are removing warlock survivability again in BFA and we will not get anything to compensate I can see Cata 2.0 all over this shit where we are just a shittier mage with much less mobility.

[Maleific]

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I'll give you that, but the result is not nearly as bad as what you're complaining about, we gained mobility at the cost of durability. It's not like without Demon Skin Soul Leech doesn't exist, we're still far tankier than most dps with burning rush.

I am very concerned, to me it looks like they are removing warlock survivability again in BFA and we will not get anything to compensate I can see Cata 2.0 all over this shit where we are just a shittier mage with much less mobility.

I wouldn't be too worried about it right now, i'd focus on playstyle/ QoL stuff until we get to test the changes.

[bio347]

If I could interrupt the usual ridiculousness for a moment...

I think putting Synergy as competition to Sacrifice is a pretty good idea. The big problems with balancing (percentage-based) Sac versus not-Sac have always been that a) it scales with mastery and b) it scales with multi-target. Synergy is like a half-Sac or so in terms of affecting player damage, which means that it should theoretically be possible to get the two options closer together in power.

Then again, I also thought Legion's approach would be a good idea, because you can literally just tune the static damage number to be exactly equal to a pet's contribution, but they went and made it AoE for some reason. Hopefully we can get something reasonable, because it's always disappointing that one ends up head-and-shoulders better.

[Biomega]

Niche as in focus upon their strength i.e dots, there post was more about the identity of the class so by that affliction should be focused on the majority of its damage coming from dots, not nukes ergo having SB as a lion share filler of the damage doesn't really fit with that. Destro being huge nukes so immolate being nothing other than shard gen and shit damage, they long cast big co-efficient spells like soul fire coming back.

Whether they manage to stick to that design philosophy we will see.

I get the intention, but it simply runs into issues of practicability.

DoTs simply scale too well with multiple targets, and there isn't all that many ways to address that. One is diminishing returns, i.e. make DoTs scale less than linear with multiple targets; this is actually already the case, as Agony doesn't generate a proportionate amount of Shards with multiple targets but has inbuilt diminishing returns. You could extend that through some effect, maybe baked into our Mastery, that makes DoTs less effective the more of them are up at the same time. It would still make it a damage gain to have them up on more than one mob, but it would be much less than simply 1+1+1... for each target. Maybe something like reducing DoT damage by 10% for each target (multiplicative), capped at value X (determined by Mastery). That would curb MT scaling significantly, particularly with a lot of targets, while leaving ST damage entirely intact. HOWEVER it would also feel very awkward to players, imo, and leave a bad taste of nerf in everyone's mouth.

Another way to address the issue is to shift the proportion of total damage dealt by DoTs. Right now, DoTs are about 70% of damage on ST (accounting for MG, that is, actual DS damage is more like 12-15%) and about 95% on high-uptime MT fights (e.g. Felhounds or Coven); intermittent add fights are somewhere in between. Now what you could do, and what I think they WILL be doing, is increase the damage of the pure ST nuke spells (i.e. Shadow Bolt in BfA) significantly, while at the same time lowering DoT damage across the board. That way, ST damage is largely unaffected, but MT scaling is effectively curbed because the ST-nuke filler spell actually scales negatively with multiple targets (since you use more GCDs to maintain DoTs). The problem with this model is that it goes against the Affliction "damage over time" class fantasy - which is precisely what I think is behind them bringing back Shadow Bolt, i.e. an iconic old-school Warlock spell that people will look towards as a flavor win even though it only serves as cover for the fact that they're significantly tuning down the "flavor" of Affliction as a heavily DoT-based class.

[ydraw]

I am very concerned, to me it looks like they are removing warlock survivability again in BFA and we will not get anything to compensate I can see Cata 2.0 all over this shit where we are just a shittier mage with much less mobility.

Warlocks still have more survivability than most other classes even without drain soul.

Demon Skin, Dark Pact, Unending Resolve is far more options than most classes. Not to mention that Drain Soul isn't going away, it just won't be part of the regular rotation any more. So there will be a choice between maintaining optimal DPS and healing for shitloads. Surely nobody expects that things will remain in their current state where you can complete current raid encounters with 23 warlocks and no healers.

[Kirroth]

Now what you could do, and what I think they WILL be doing, is increase the damage of the pure ST nuke spells (i.e. Shadow Bolt in BfA) significantly, while at the same time lowering DoT damage across the board.

I'm not so sure about that. As you say, it'd dilute the Afflic class fantasy pretty badly. A different thing they can do, and it's obvious from this build they're already doing, is tweak the talent choices.

The Level 15 row are all significant damage increases that don't scale on MT fights. Death Bolt is a ST cooldown nuke, Haunt is a ST maintenance buff, and Shadow Embrace can technically be juggled on two targets at once but you'll have to be damned good to not drop stacks if you're trying that. Plus WiA and AC got put on the same row so you can't double up on council fights, which is effectively a MT nerf too.

[Biomega]

I'm not so sure about that. As you say, it'd dilute the Afflic class fantasy pretty badly. A different thing they can do, and it's obvious from this build they're already doing, is tweak the talent choices.

The Level 15 row are all significant damage increases that don't scale on MT fights. Death Bolt is a ST cooldown nuke, Haunt is a ST maintenance buff, and Shadow Embrace can technically be juggled on two targets at once but you'll have to be damned good to not drop stacks if you're trying that. Plus WiA and AC got put on the same row so you can't double up on council fights, which is effectively a MT nerf too.

It's possible, but assuming reasonable base DoT damage it'd probably still scale too well eventually.

Also didn't they say they don't like talents to be "choose this for AoE/MT, choose this for ST"?

[Xeranath]

It's possible, but assuming reasonable base DoT damage it'd probably still scale too well eventually.

Also didn't they say they don't like talents to be "choose this for AoE/MT, choose this for ST"?

I quite like have specific themes for talent rows, such as the ST row, the MT row, the survival row.

[Challenge]

I'd agree with drain soul becoming an execute like ability again that replaces SB as filler again instead of deaths embrace, but not as a main stay filler. Affliction warlock survivability isnt just better than every other spec, its leagues, leaps and bounds better, to the point of no contest. They could keep drain soul and remove/heavily nerf the healing, but that would still leave affliction as a low APM low skill spec (more so than normal) .

Redirecting affliction to be primarily strongest at single target is a noble concept, we'll have to see how it pans out. Leaving affliction as is just makes it and any other dot spec oppressively overpowered on any long term multi target fight , and has been every expansion from cata from that featured those types of bosses. Doesn't mean affliction cant have good multi target, but it shouldn't be allowed to scale so exponentially well that it starts to be as grossly overpowered as it is now.

Also unpopular opinion, i hate grimoire of sacrifice. IMO, being a hunter or warlock should embrace the pet for all its weaknesses and strengths, not allow us to forgo it for static damage boost. Thats what was a main selling point for these 2 classes and i believe it should be enforced.

They could still possibly change their minds and remove it since the whole grimoire tier besides synergy/service for demo is a joke.

[Deleted]

I think it's just being able to press a button more often makes the spec feel more interactive. The long draining downtimes when I can just take my hands off the keyboard are the reason I don't really enjoy affliction in its current incarnation.

Gives me plenty of time to enjoy snacks during the raid... THINK ABOUT THE SNACKS!!!

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If I could interrupt the usual ridiculousness for a moment...

Only if you have the right pet out... otherwise, the mage forum is "overthere".

[Deleted]

I get the intention, but it simply runs into issues of practicability.

DoTs simply scale too well with multiple targets, and there isn't all that many ways to address that. One is diminishing returns, i.e. make DoTs scale less than linear with multiple targets; this is actually already the case, as Agony doesn't generate a proportionate amount of Shards with multiple targets but has inbuilt diminishing returns. You could extend that through some effect, maybe baked into our Mastery, that makes DoTs less effective the more of them are up at the same time. It would still make it a damage gain to have them up on more than one mob, but it would be much less than simply 1+1+1... for each target. Maybe something like reducing DoT damage by 10% for each target (multiplicative), capped at value X (determined by Mastery). That would curb MT scaling significantly, particularly with a lot of targets, while leaving ST damage entirely intact. HOWEVER it would also feel very awkward to players, imo, and leave a bad taste of nerf in everyone's mouth.

Another way to address the issue is to shift the proportion of total damage dealt by DoTs. Right now, DoTs are about 70% of damage on ST (accounting for MG, that is, actual DS damage is more like 12-15%) and about 95% on high-uptime MT fights (e.g. Felhounds or Coven); intermittent add fights are somewhere in between. Now what you could do, and what I think they WILL be doing, is increase the damage of the pure ST nuke spells (i.e. Shadow Bolt in BfA) significantly, while at the same time lowering DoT damage across the board. That way, ST damage is largely unaffected, but MT scaling is effectively curbed because the ST-nuke filler spell actually scales negatively with multiple targets (since you use more GCDs to maintain DoTs). The problem with this model is that it goes against the Affliction "damage over time" class fantasy - which is precisely what I think is behind them bringing back Shadow Bolt, i.e. an iconic old-school Warlock spell that people will look towards as a flavor win even though it only serves as cover for the fact that they're significantly tuning down the "flavor" of Affliction as a heavily DoT-based class.

You make a good point and compelling argument, the cynic in me does agree with you that if they do shift a lot of damage into the filler they will dress it up with a fanfair of "shadowbolt is back!!!"

I would prefer the former solution you suggested, however i do agree that the general consensus for such a fix would leave the average player with a sour taste. Better players would understand the necessity of such a change, tho doesn't mean they would have to like it. It would also be a fine line to tread in terms of effort over output, we all know currently how powerful multi-dotting can be, but i also know how shit some locks i see attempting it, juggling agonies, UA's on the kill target doing mechanics and sniping shards is beyond a lot of average player to do well, fettering the damage could also just create a situation where they say "cba its not that much of a damage gain for me anyways" which will have a negative effect on the spec as a whole.

The current affliction talents choice wise are some of the most balance talents in the game in terms of simming relatively close to each other, but i think there needs to be at least one row that doesnt, only one row out of 7 which says ST, Cleave or MT, yes its cookie cutter, but for how the spec plays it just needs it to allow a clear separation of allowing the spec to perform well in particular scenarios without being OP in one or very weak in the other. MG did a relativity good job at that, but because it was baked into the channel of DS it was not that far ahead of WiA because of movement and the leggo hood.

Perhaps a talent such as the old curse of shadows and limited to only able to have it on 1 target, could work in terms of being a significant boost to ST so that dots can be kept at a reasonable power level they don't run rampant on MT and still fits into class fantasy of debuffs and dots so that sb doesn't need to be such a lion share of the damage. Sure it's a little boring but it would solve a lot of issues without having the dilute dots and making the spec feel bad for it.

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Also unpopular opinion, i hate grimoire of sacrifice. IMO, being a hunter or warlock should embrace the pet for all its weaknesses and strengths, not allow us to forgo it for static damage boost. Thats what was a main selling point for these 2 classes and i believe it should be enforced.

They could still possibly change their minds and remove it since the whole grimoire tier besides synergy/service for demo is a joke.

I guess you never played Demonic Sacrifice?

Its been in the spec since Vanilla: http://rpgworld.altervista.org/class...nt/warlock.php

Part of the whole point of the difference between hunter and warlocks in terms of being a "pet" class is that we could kill our "pets" for damage gain, to me that is not a pet its a tool, so i should have the choice to do with it as i choose not forced to play with it like a puppy.

[ydraw]

Part of the whole point of the difference between hunter and warlocks in terms of being a "pet" class is that we could kill our "pets" for damage gain, to me that is not a pet its a tool, so i should have the choice to do with it as i choose not forced to play with it like a puppy.

Yes, this exactly. A warlock's demon is not a pet. It's a demonic slave that you summoned and bound against its will to your bidding. If you wish to kill it for extra power, then that's what you do. It's very thematic.

[Challenge]

Yes, this exactly. A warlock's demon is not a pet. It's a demonic slave that you summoned and bound against its will to your bidding. If you wish to kill it for extra power, then that's what you do. It's very thematic.

Thematic sure , but in reality, all you do is gain a buff that says "hey the damage that your pet would of dealt, is instead dealt by you with a little bit extra. oh and you gain one of their 4 abilities".

Same shit as lone wolf or the frost mage equilivant. Theres nothing cool or epic or even interesting about trading your pet/minion/ whatever for a static damage buff till the end of time that is a pure and simple tuning tool that might as well not exist in the player "choice" of talents or abilities.


Implosion is an example of interesting gameplay for sacrificing your demons for more power. Demonic Sacrifice is just fucking stupid however.

[Xanatas]

Thematic sure , but in reality, all you do is gain a buff that says "hey the damage that your pet would of dealt, is instead dealt by you with a little bit extra. oh and you gain one of their 4 abilities".

Same shit as lone wolf or the frost mage equilivant. Theres nothing cool or epic or even interesting about trading your pet/minion/ whatever for a static damage buff till the end of time that is a pure and simple tuning tool that might as well not exist in the player "choice" of talents or abilities.


Implosion is an example of interesting gameplay for sacrificing your demons for more power. Demonic Sacrifice is just fucking stupid however.

you gain also demonic command, without spell lock from a destro warlock perspective i'm feel so naked