Work - Would you like it to see it become obsolete?

[Nihilist74]

People should work to improve themselves. We should do away with all tedious and repetitive work. We should leave all of that kind of work to the machines.

[Stonecloak]

it's funny how desperately people cling to the notion that work is the reason for living. I'll never understand why... cognitive dissonance i guess. people would have to acknowledge that their lives are essentially pointless without taking some sort of pride in their work.

The important distinction to make here, is to separate what is completely logical, from human behavior. If humans did function differently, then yea it’d be a much different reality. This is why people are confused with the idea that having no purpose will be a sustainable environment. We are fighting for purpose today, we go to war for it. We’re not going to just change like that with automation. It’s in our dna.

[Drusin]

So, if work is an inevitable human circumstance, then how does that equate to slavery?

Let's ask google!



Gee thanks google



"a person who works very hard without proper remuneration or appreciation."

"a person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something."

I'm convinced! Wage labor is slavery!

I'm really liking that second one

[chazus]

When it's one of the largest professions in the USA and has very large secondary effects, it's a pretty fair beacon.

I wouldn't call something that falls into ~#15 as 'one of the largest'... And even then, the industry has no relevance, when its only a few companies doing the testing. Even so... Lets say all trucks suddenly become automated... That has no relevance to anything else, because automating trucks isn't very similar to, say, automating planes, or cleaning services, or literally any other job. We're a far way away. Trucking is being automated because it's one of the easier things to do, in most shipping areas.

[Fencers]

Work - Would you like it to become obsolete?

Yes. That is the end goal.

[Drusin]

[Stonecloak]

I'm convinced! Wage labor is slavery!

I'm really liking that second one

What about the first definition? Convienetly left that one out. Also the second is kind of iffy, and circumstantial. Third sound very close to the first. Seems like the definitions have changed over time. It’d be a better argument to say the economical system we have in place has corrupted, and in turn created a situation bordering slave like conditions for some. I think we can all see that greed has cause many of its issues. Our economic system isn’t inherently perfect, but is one of the better systems we’ve had in history. Hopefully it’s salvagable before machines and AI take over, and this also doesn’t exactly solve the issues we have being working beings.

[belfpala]

"I practice the aristocratic art of doing absolutely nothing, and in the future I hope to do even less."

-Anon.

[TheDestinatus]

Yes. That is the end goal.

So you would prefer a society entirely dependant upon technology without the continued knowledge transfer we have depended on for out entire existence as a species? It really isn't that hard to fathom, if people aren't working they won't have skills, if they have no skills they have nothing to pass on to the next person. We don't have a genetic memory so the majority of the knowledge required to make everything function will be lost.

If you got what you wanted people would be doing what we do know "I wonder how they built the pyramids?!", only it will be on a much broader scale "I wonder how people develop medicine", "How did peoples build homes", "Oh noes, the machines have all broken! How do we grow food for ourselves?", "The shit is coming back up the toilet, how do I fix it?"

[Drusin]

What about the first definition? Convienetly left that one out. Also the second is kind of iffy, and circumstantial. Third sound very close to the first. Seems like the definitions have changed over time. It’d be a better argument to say the economical system we have in place has corrupted, and in turn created a situation bordering slave like conditions for some. I think we can all see that greed has cause many of its issues. Our economic system isn’t inherently perfect, but is one of the better systems we’ve had in history. Hopefully it’s salvagable before machines and AI take over, and this also doesn’t exactly solve the issues we have being working beings.

Let's combine them!

a person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something. + a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them. =

a person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something is forced to obey them.

[Stonecloak]

So you would prefer a society entirely dependant upon technology without the continued knowledge transfer we have depended on for out entire existence as a species? It really isn't that hard to fathom, if people aren't working they won't have skills, if they have no skills they have nothing to pass on to the next person. We don't have a genetic memory so the majority of the knowledge required to make everything function will be lost.

If you got what you wanted people would be doing what we do know "I wonder how they built the pyramids?!", only it will be on a much broader scale "I wonder how people develop medicine", "How did peoples build homes", "Oh noes, the machines have all broken! How do we grow food for ourselves?", "The shit is coming back up the toilet, how do I fix it?"

Yea, exactly, and then that would lead to a portion revolting against the machines, and those who side with the machines, who will most likely win because they become part machine. Kind of a terrifying prospect, but I don’t see it playing out much differently.

- - - Updated - - -

Let's combine them!

a person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something. + a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them. =

a person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something is forced to obey them.

I’m not really following. Semantics is a thing, and these are separated for a reason, just like why there are multiple definitions.

[Drusin]

So you would prefer a society entirely dependant upon technology without the continued knowledge transfer we have depended on for out entire existence as a species? It really isn't that hard to fathom, if people aren't working they won't have skills, if they have no skills they have nothing to pass on to the next person. We don't have a genetic memory so the majority of the knowledge required to make everything function will be lost.

If you got what you wanted people would be doing what we do know "I wonder how they built the pyramids?!", only it will be on a much broader scale "I wonder how people develop medicine", "How did peoples build homes", "Oh noes, the machines have all broken! How do we grow food for ourselves?", "The shit is coming back up the toilet, how do I fix it?"

Why would present knowledge be lost? Would we delete it from all hard drives? When I need to know something now do you think I ask a person? I usually google it, including how to fix plumbing issues which, with robots in our fantasy world, wouldn't exist. I can't think of any situation off the top of my head that couldn't be solved by AI in the future outside of creative creation (like streams, blogs and original content).

I would agree however that present "common knowledge" wouldn't be as prevalent as it is now but there's no reason to think that with our current storage technologies that anything would ever be lost.

[Aggrophobic]

Well, it does not really matter what I think about it. Sooner or later we will at a point where most people will not be needed on the job market. Society needs to take care of thoes people in one way or another or they will turn on the people at the top. It will be a tricky situation.

I do like my current job though and if things like basic income actually becomes a thing I would not just drop everything and be content with sitting at home, doing nothing.

[Endus]

So you would prefer a society entirely dependant upon technology without the continued knowledge transfer we have depended on for out entire existence as a species? It really isn't that hard to fathom, if people aren't working they won't have skills, if they have no skills they have nothing to pass on to the next person. We don't have a genetic memory so the majority of the knowledge required to make everything function will be lost.

If you got what you wanted people would be doing what we do know "I wonder how they built the pyramids?!", only it will be on a much broader scale "I wonder how people develop medicine", "How did peoples build homes", "Oh noes, the machines have all broken! How do we grow food for ourselves?", "The shit is coming back up the toilet, how do I fix it?"

This is nonsense.

First, we've already recorded how to do the things you're saying will be "lost".
Second, there's plenty that we've already moved beyond, and which society is better for.

You've lost sight that automation is a tool.

[Stonecloak]

This is nonsense.

First, we've already recorded how to do the things you're saying will be "lost".
Second, there's plenty that we've already moved beyond, and which society is better for.

You've lost sight that automation is a tool.

Having the information available is not doing. It’s not that we’ll lose the ability to know how to perform tasks that’s the issue, it’s that we won’t be doing it. Similar to how knowing how to work out is useless unless you do it. Look at what’s happening in Japan. It’s almost a tiny glimpse of what’s in store, and their culture has withered away in more ways that one. Look at countries when they have an enemy unite and become stronger, no enemy and they become weak.

If the end goal is to become weak and depend on machines then fine, but the argument that it will be fulfilling to us is wrong from a human psychological perspective. It’s not as easy as that, especially since our minds constantly look for problems to solve.

[Drusin]

Yea, exactly, and then that would lead to a portion revolting against the machines, and those who side with the machines, who will most likely win because they become part machine. Kind of a terrifying prospect, but I don’t see it playing out much differently.

- - - Updated - - -



I’m not really following. Semantics is a thing, and these are separated for a reason, just like why there are multiple definitions.

I only excluded the first because I wasn't sure if people fell under "legal property" of their employers, something I'll have to look into. Besides that it seems to me workers are slaves.

[TheDestinatus]

This is nonsense.

First, we've already recorded how to do the things you're saying will be "lost".
Second, there's plenty that we've already moved beyond, and which society is better for.

You've lost sight that automation is a tool.

Automation is no more of a tool than calling a bricklayer a tool. Automation doesn't make it easier for a singular person to complete a task, it replaces the person attempting to complete the task. Before the industrial revolution the horse population was at its peak because they were required to complete jobs that we were incapable of doing on our own, insert machines and the horse population exists primarily at and for our pleasure. They were no longer required, they were therefore dispensable. Its no different with AI/automation and humans.

The knowledge factor is based purely on human laziness, believing that any meaningful percentage of the human race is going to attempt to fix problems they can offload onto someone/something else is about as naive as it gets. Begs the question if you have ever actually worked with other people before, isn't a single person alive that doesn't try to shift the burden when they can get away with it, if you get to a point where you can "just get the e-maid to do it" I would happily guarantee peoples willingness to learn will disappear.

[Stonecloak]

I only excluded the first because I wasn't sure if people fell under "legal property" of their employers, something I'll have to look into. Besides that it seems to me workers are slaves.

It’s a binding contract as far as I know. Doesn’t fall under any type of ownership, at least legal work. Yea it’s not as simple as that either. What about the percentage of people who don’t live uncomfotably, and willfully work. I think you could argue in some cases this can be compared to slave labor, but definitely not as a whole.

[Drusin]

Having the information available is not doing. It’s not that we’ll lose the ability to know how to perform tasks that’s the issue, it’s that we won’t be doing it. Similar to how knowing how to work out is useless unless you do it.

Why do something if you don't need to do it? Outside of "want to" because I don't think anyone here wants to stop people from doing what they want to do.

Look at what’s happening in Japan.

What's happening in Japan? The only thing I'm aware of is they had a population spike after WW2, but now they have a culture where they work a lot and their death rate is higher than their birth rate so their population is dying off. I think I read that around the year 3000 or something at this rate the Japanese won't exist anymore and a large percentage of their workforce is senior citizens. They (prime minister) are trying to increase immigration but their citizens (despite knowing their population is shrinking) don't want to upset the culture of the country.

I kind of want to respect that, staying who you are even to your own demise but at the same time you're race will disappear from the earth.

[TheDestinatus]

Why do something if you don't need to do it? Outside of "want to" because I don't think anyone here wants to stop people from doing what they want to do.


What's happening in Japan? The only thing I'm aware of is they had a population spike after WW2, but now they have a culture where they work a lot and their death rate is higher than their birth rate so their population is dying off. I think I read that around the year 3000 or something at this rate the Japanese won't exist anymore and a large percentage of their workforce is senior citizens. They (prime minister) are trying to increase immigration but their citizens (despite knowing their population is shrinking) don't want to upset the culture of the country.

It wouldn't hurt them to lower their population assuming its done in a managed way and not an ingrained cultural issue which it is. They shouldn't allow their culture to be manipulated by immigration or global pressure to do so, its what makes them unique. For all they hard work and intelligence however, if they aren't bright enough to actually keep themselves alive they only have themselves to blame.