Elemental in Mythic Plus

[Deleted]

How does Ele perform in m+?

Raider.io shows a quite low amount of ele shamans on the first few hundred ranks. Warcraftlogs shows Ele somewhere in the middle of the pack.

So how is he in m+? Especially above 16/17.

[Deleted]

Competitive dmg wise, both on trash and bosses (provided you know what you're doing, which most don't, they just think they do).

Lacks in utility, cap totem has a delay which renders it inferior when dealing with mechanics, most you can pre-empt, but not all of them. Low cd ranged interrupt is a plus.
Biggest drawback without a doubt is survivability, or rather lack of thereof. With just one defensive cooldown on a 1.5min cd and 8 sec duration, you will be a detriment to your group in many high lvl tyrannical (or in some cases, even non tyrannical 23+) runs.

One more thing to note is that the announced changes to battle ress will push squishy specs further down the ladder in high end m+, so a warlock, mage or balance are all much better options if you plan to really push it.

[chairmanmao]

Good but a tier below the broken top specs.

[Deleted]

I havent done any crazy high keys so far (20 max), but in my experience, elemental has one of the best aoe dmg (if not the best burst aoe) and pretty competitive single target if you switch your gear and legendaries accordingly (not counting crazy single target bursters like Monks, rogues, warriors). The snap dmg of magma totem and stormkeeper with procs is just sick and gives you dps numbers of up to 50 Million dps for the first 4 to 5 seconds if you get lucky.

Mobility is very nice with the 12 seconds jump but I have to admit that survivability is pretty low and even on 20 not tyrannical bosses I had to switch to prydaz more than I liked.

[Aleyg]

They honestly just have a harder time surviving in higher keys where when you get to 20 and above, you have to spare some defensive cd's to help out the shaman sometimes. For <19+ keys, they are beefy enough to tank mechanics with their own personals making them fine for those keys from what I experienced.

[Deleted]

Guys, which legedaries and talents u use for tyrannical?

[jearle]

Good but a tier below the broken top specs.

This is the truth, my wife is a high rated aff lock and they are just amazing right now overall.
Elementals survivability just sucks and it doesnt have a battle rez which hurts it (for now, cant wait for the brez nerf)

If you don't have all the legos required it also goes from good to meh very quickly.

Guys, which legedaries and talents u use for tyrannical?

Hero/Lust fight? Helm + something (sephuz if reliably procd, prydaz, gloves, bracers based on fight / level)
Hyrja'esque fight? Prydaz + Something (sephuz if reliably procd, gloves, ring, bracers)
Typical single target fight Gambling setup

You need several gear setups to be optimal in keys. My ele shaman has 6 different setups depending on scenario

[Deleted]

This is the truth, my wife is a high rated aff lock and they are just amazing right now overall.
Elementals survivability just sucks and it doesnt have a battle rez which hurts it (for now, cant wait for the brez nerf)

Sadly this is the mindset that Blizzard has pushed on a lot of players with their absolutely garbage class design lately. Let's get one thing straight here - a nerf to someone else's utility does not benefit you in any way, shape or form. It is actually the exact opposite.
The only reason anybody brings an ele shaman right now to high m+ pushes is either fortified week in something like brh, where eq is invaluable, OR you are a godlike player (still below a godlike lock/balance/even mage) AND they have a ress for you. Guess what? Soon they won't, hence your spot will go to a spec with an immunity/cheat death/actual defensives.

[Jotaux]

I play enhance but from what I've seen elemental isn't in a bad place. They are a step below the top specs because they have no immunity and lack of survivablility(seriously I finally decided to try balance out on my druid and I couldn't believe how much armor it has let alone its damage reduction options.) The immunity thing is the one that pisses me off because it affects my raid spot as well on some fights. They still can push keys fairly well. The top shaman on my server is 5th for dps overall on the server.

[korlach]

The only reason anybody brings an ele shaman right now to high m+ pushes is either fortified week in something like brh, where eq is invaluable, OR you are a godlike player (still below a godlike lock/balance/even mage) AND they have a ress for you. Guess what? Soon they won't, hence your spot will go to a spec with an immunity/cheat death/actual defensives.

This is absolute crap. Ele shammy can melt trash and has strong burst single target. We lack a little sustained single target dps and we lack in survivability but most of the time that is countered by knowing the dungeon and knowing the affixes as well as when to use a legendary combo.

All that aside the reason I say this is crap is because you are talking about m+, not m raids. Every single person can get a key and build a group and grind their key as high as they are willing to work to, so nobody is losing their spot. If you are a good enough player you should be able to join a regular group in a guild and have multiple keys to choose from.

All that aside, grind up your ilvl and m+ score and you can get in most groups anyway.

[Deleted]

This is absolute crap. Ele shammy can melt trash and has strong burst single target. We lack a little sustained single target dps and we lack in survivability but most of the time that is countered by knowing the dungeon and knowing the affixes as well as when to use a legendary combo.

All that aside the reason I say this is crap is because you are talking about m+, not m raids. Every single person can get a key and build a group and grind their key as high as they are willing to work to, so nobody is losing their spot. If you are a good enough player you should be able to join a regular group in a guild and have multiple keys to choose from.

All that aside, grind up your ilvl and m+ score and you can get in most groups anyway.

Comprehend the post you're quoting before you attempt to respond to it. Ele doesn't melt shit, both its burst and sustained aoe are outmached by other classes that also have better defensives and/or useful utility. Obviously you will be fine on anything that is not actually challenging, thanks for pointing that out, champ.

[JohnRoads]

Questions for people pushing higher keys, like 20+.

BTW, 962 ilvl, 4 piece, 2950 raider IO score with all dungeons done over 18 w/one chest at least. Highest keys are a 22 lower not done in time and a 21 halls +1.

What kind of leggos are you bringing? I find my self using Prydaz+gloves on trash/boss if there is damage going out, just to help the healer if needed. Otherwise I am using boots+gloves for almost everything else.

Do you use liquid magma totem? I felt the trade off for single target was not worth it and much prefered Echo. There was some sick AoE, but we have that already.

Only leggos I don't have are the class ring and shoulders.

The leggos I bring depends on the dungeon, key level, affixes and group composition. I also swap between pulls if needed. On some bossfights and/or high key levels it is a must to have prydaz equipped, but I generally don't use it on trash pulls. On trash my most used leggo is sephuz because of EQ knockdowns, interrupts and stun. Most trash pulls will cause it to be on cooldown all the time. With sephuz I normally use the bracers, but I also use gloves from time to time. It also depends a bit on what gear I have available, while I don't use the 4-set for aoe the 2-set is a nice boost.

I use magma totem on fortified weeks and when I am doing BRH. I don't know if it was addressed in 7.3.5 (haven't been doing many m+ the last few weeks as my mates are on vacation), but on last boss in BRH the magma totem shines. It might sound weird, but it does 30-40% of my dmg on the fight and I think it comes from the totem double dipping on the boss buff.

[Impact]

Questions for people pushing higher keys, like 20+.

BTW, 962 ilvl, 4 piece, 2950 raider IO score with all dungeons done over 18 w/one chest at least. Highest keys are a 22 lower not done in time and a 21 halls +1.

What kind of leggos are you bringing? I find my self using Prydaz+gloves on trash/boss if there is damage going out, just to help the healer if needed. Otherwise I am using boots+gloves for almost everything else.

Do you use liquid magma totem? I felt the trade off for single target was not worth it and much prefered Echo. There was some sick AoE, but we have that already.

Only leggos I don't have are the class ring and shoulders.

I use different gearsets throughout a dungeon.

For trash i always use sephuz + Eye (smaller packs), bracers (bigger packs), prydaz.
On bosses i always use Smoldering Heart + Classring/Helm/Prydaz.

Talent setup is always 3112312 except for Upper kara where i run Icefury Gambling.

As side note to JohnRoads comment on the last boss of brh. He's right on that it double dips. LMT scales with SP and Buffs on the player. But the totem itself also gets the buff which means it benefits from your buff as well as getting its own 300% buff. I ticks for like 3-5 mil every 0.7 sec.

[woopytywoop]

I use magma totem on fortified weeks and when I am doing BRH. I don't know if it was addressed in 7.3.5 (haven't been doing many m+ the last few weeks as my mates are on vacation), but on last boss in BRH the magma totem shines. It might sound weird, but it does 30-40% of my dmg on the fight and I think it comes from the totem double dipping on the boss buff.

that was fixed with last patch

[jearle]

Questions for people pushing higher keys, like 20+.

BTW, 962 ilvl, 4 piece, 2950 raider IO score with all dungeons done over 18 w/one chest at least. Highest keys are a 22 lower not done in time and a 21 halls +1.

What kind of leggos are you bringing? I find my self using Prydaz+gloves on trash/boss if there is damage going out, just to help the healer if needed. Otherwise I am using boots+gloves for almost everything else.

Do you use liquid magma totem? I felt the trade off for single target was not worth it and much prefered Echo. There was some sick AoE, but we have that already.

Only leggos I don't have are the class ring and shoulders.

Set 1 Bracers + Sephuz Trash
Set 2 Prydaz + Sephuz Trash or Boss with reliable proc + Survive
Set 3 Boots/Gloves Gambling Boss fights No heroism
Set 4 Lust Helm + Prydaz Boss w Heroism + Survive
Set 5 Lust Helm + XXX (I use gloves Gloves) Boss + Heroism general
Set 6 Prydaz + Gloves Boss No Heroism, No Sephuz Proc, +Survive

On fortified weeks i use the typical LROD build except i keep aftershock since it is really nice on boss fights and haste numbers are ridiculous right now with good gear.

Tyrannical i use the gambling build

[korlach]

Comprehend the post you're quoting before you attempt to respond to it. Ele doesn't melt shit, both its burst and sustained aoe are outmached by other classes that also have better defensives and/or useful utility. Obviously you will be fine on anything that is not actually challenging, thanks for pointing that out, champ.

Lol are you a troll or just jaded by the past? Our AOE is top tier and our utility in dungeons is amazing. Earthquake, aoe stun, ranged interupt are all beyond useful and hex, thunderstorm, and earth ele can all save a wipe when a tank dies or things get hairy. You are a classic case of complaining about everything when something is bad. Our survivability needs work and won't get it any time soon but acting like our aoe is bad is just plain ridiculous.

[Deleted]

Look, I'll make it as easy for you to understand as humanly possible. The opening post in this topic suggests that the user is seeking information about performance in the top end of mythic+ - that is what I am responding to. You, on the other hand, are describing low/mid tier scenarios, in which - as I already mentioned - elemental is just fine.

Lack of cheat death/immunity paired with the weakest defensive toolkit in the game puts this spec in DIRE straits as far as high level key pushes are concerned, PERIOD.
The only reasons elemental is brought to 24+ are:
1) it's a fortified week
2) it's a dungeon heavy in trash, with fairly static pulls, where EQ is invaluable
Now, perhaps you can prove everybody wrong and go smash those 25+ on tyrannical weeks, but I think it's safe to assume that you simply:
1) have no idea what you're talking about
2) are talking about something completely different (this should be a lightbulb moment for you)

As far as our aoe goes - it is just slightly above average. Reasons:
1) Burst is uneven on packs above 5, forcing others to pick up the slack on weeks like bolstering. The rng nature of LR also means you have no reliable means to focus key targets during aoe, which is very important on high lvl. The EQ knockdown, as useful as it is in certain scenarios, can also be a detriment on weeks like sanguine. Guess what - NONE of the other, TOP TIER, specs suffer from those shortcomings in their aoe.
2) A huge chunk of it is tied to ground effects with a small radius, which butchers our output on packs that need to be kited (that's a lot of packs, in a lot of dungeons).

Again, before you respond, try to throw those scrub runs that you're doing out of your mind and understand what subject matter my comments are aimed at.

[korlach]

Look, I'll make it as easy for you to understand as humanly possible. The opening post in this topic suggests that the user is seeking information about performance in the top end of mythic+ - that is what I am responding to. You, on the other hand, are describing low/mid tier scenarios, in which - as I already mentioned - elemental is just fine.

Lack of cheat death/immunity paired with the weakest defensive toolkit in the game puts this spec in DIRE straits as far as high level key pushes are concerned, PERIOD.
The only reasons elemental is brought to 24+ are:
1) it's a fortified week
2) it's a dungeon heavy in trash, with fairly static pulls, where EQ is invaluable
Now, perhaps you can prove everybody wrong and go smash those 25+ on tyrannical weeks, but I think it's safe to assume that you simply:
1) have no idea what you're talking about
2) are talking about something completely different (this should be a lightbulb moment for you)

As far as our aoe goes - it is just slightly above average. Reasons:
1) Burst is uneven on packs above 5, forcing others to pick up the slack on weeks like bolstering. The rng nature of LR also means you have no reliable means to focus key targets during aoe, which is very important on high lvl. The EQ knockdown, as useful as it is in certain scenarios, can also be a detriment on weeks like sanguine. Guess what - NONE of the other, TOP TIER, specs suffer from those shortcomings in their aoe.
2) A huge chunk of it is tied to ground effects with a small radius, which butchers our output on packs that need to be kited (that's a lot of packs, in a lot of dungeons).

Again, before you respond, try to throw those scrub runs that you're doing out of your mind and understand what subject matter my comments are aimed at.

I like how you assume I must not know what I'm talking about because I haven't grinded out +25 runs (like mostly every). The same things that happen in a +5, 10, or 15 happen in a 20 and so on. The difference, just like with normal to heroic to mythic raids, is a harmless ability at low levels is maybe a 1 shot mechanic at the highest. I've already agreed with you that ele survivability is lacking. If you think our aoe is bad, I don't know what to tell you. If I'm so bad why can I melt things in a +18 or 19? Shouldn't someone better than me have no problem in a 22 or 23? At the end of the day I'd rather have a player of any class that understands the dungeon, can move out of shit, can cc when necessary, and knows how to target swap and prioritize targets over some scrub who picked the right class.

Aside from all this I already said above why all your arguments are crap. Everybody gets a key so nobody is left out of a group if they want 1. They can choose to follow your advice and give up before the timer starts, or they can follow mine and see what happens.

[Deleted]

The problem in discussing things with people like you is that you either take things that I write and then twist and misrepresent them to fit your own agenda, or are delusional to a degree where you think that your experience in a low/mid end run has any correlation to actual high level game play.

I like how you assume I must not know what I'm talking about because I haven't grinded out +25 runs (like mostly every). The same things that happen in a +5, 10, or 15 happen in a 20 and so on. The difference, just like with normal to heroic to mythic raids, is a harmless ability at low levels is maybe a 1 shot mechanic at the highest

And you call my arguments crap? What you're producing, my man, is pure DRIVEL. The difference between heroic and mythic raiding is much more than just ability scaling, you are introduced to a variety of new mechanics (same way where certain, if not most, mechanics in m+ don't really matter in currently widely available gear until you start doing things that your character hasn't outscaled), which, paired with things having more hp/hitting harder, demand a lot more coordination from your team and - in the process - unearth a lot of balancing issues. That goes both in a way where certain specs become too weak, or too strong (like affliction in mythic raiding for example).

If you think our aoe is bad, I don't know what to tell you. If I'm so bad why can I melt things in a +18 or 19? Shouldn't someone better than me have no problem in a 22 or 23?

I didn't say I thought it was bad, just not as good as you think it is.
You cannot compare a trash pull on +18/19, with the same pull on +23/24. OBVIOUSLY you will melt things on 18 within a few globals and thus have no need to worry about your eq/lmt placement, positioning, lining up stuns/interrupts, focusing key targets that need to die fast, etc.
To put it bluntly - right now your gear is carrying you. Folks doing 26s-27s in time have a few (+10 tops) more ilvls than you, but are doing keys in which everything has almost x3 more hp.

At the end of the day I'd rather have a player of any class that understands the dungeon, can move out of shit, can cc when necessary, and knows how to target swap and prioritize targets over some scrub who picked the right class.

You are deflecting one of my points yet again, not arguing it. I already explained that in low/mid tier content, you can bring any class/spec, because it truly doesn't matter. However, there is a threshold at which certain specs start lagging behind and elemental is in that group and skill/knowledge/execution has nothing to do with it, basic design flaws do.

In closing I'd also like to point out that nowhere did I state that somebody shouldn't play Elemental - I'm simply giving my own opinion about how it performs in high end content in this game.

[woopytywoop]

Korlach, idk what you are arguing about. OP asks for elemental performance at the top (top 100 raider.io).

Elemental is far from the worst spec and indeed has a lot of nice tools to make a smooth run, but that's not how it works for those doing top100 runs or trying to qualify for the MDI.

eg. for NL and HoV you need to make a big pull to make the timer and tank kite the mobs (outrange them) to avoid getting globalled, elemental can not dps efficiently nor snare them with 100% uptime while those in top 100 can.

If you don't aim to go for this, then indeed elemental is totally fine.