Mythic Argus questions.

[DreamSlaveOne]

Hey guys, our guild is progressing on Argus Mythic, but first two phases is very inconsistent so far. I'm looking for advice here:

1) Sometimes if we push Argus right after 5 Cones he will cast Rage of Sargeras right on Soulbomb player. Is there any way to avoid that?

2) If we push for 4 Cones before transition or it does fix the problem above but it is very hard to do consistently. Is there any other gains to do that?

3) Looking at latest kills there are many 3 healer kills. Again, I'm not sure what is the reason to do that if you still need to heal through 5 chains...

Thank you in advance.

[Dracodraco]

Hey guys, our guild is progressing on Argus Mythic, but first two phases is very inconsistent so far. I'm looking for advice here:

1) Sometimes if we push Argus right after 5 Cones he will cast Rage of Sargeras right on Soulbomb player. Is there any way to avoid that?

This is a flaw in his queue'd ability system. Sometimes he will cast the raid-AOE->Soulblight orbs->Gaze->Cone, and THIS you can do nothing about - that's just pure RNG (but it happens rarely - less than 10% of the times we missed the push before fifth cone).

If he casts rage->cone, you CAN avoid him recasting a new set of Sargeras gaze (which is what is causing your problem), by taunting right before the cone ends. This fixates the boss on the tank and delays the raid-cast of gaze of sargeras by a second (enough to push him into RP). If you don't taunt, he'll immidiatelly recast sargeras gaze and you get fucked (Reloe discovered this).

The issue basically is that there's a cooldown on the gaze cast, so if he recasts it *right before* you transition, it's on CD when he should cast it in P2 - so he casts bombs before the gaze, which can result in a bomb getting fear/rage after they have already run out, when he finally DOES cast gaze.

2) If we push for 4 Cones before transition or it does fix the problem above but it is very hard to do consistently. Is there any other gains to do that?

The gain from doing it is 1 less overall Gaze cast. Each time gaze is cast, it adds another target, alternating between rage and fear. There's this push and one in P2 prior to ~4:20 you can skip, and doing so will result in having both a rage and a fear less in P3, where they are much harder to handle due to super limited positioning and space.

3) Looking at latest kills there are many 3 healer kills. Again, I'm not sure what is the reason to do that if you still need to heal through 5 chains...

3 Healers are wasted in P1+2, they only become useful in P4. Heck, a good disc almost carries P1 entirely. Some guilds with very strong healing teams (and a good immunity comp) opt to 3 heal to have higher DPS, allowing them to be 100% sure they hit checks like the gaze ones I explained above (and making enrage a non-issue).

If you have a bad immunity set up (which means you'll be likely to heal 2 chains each time you immune, and sometimes 3 when unlucky), you WILL get raped with only 3 healers. They won't be able to keep up unless they're *extremely* good and lucky. 4 Healers lets you recover from bad RNG.

[Reloe]

If he casts rage->cone, you CAN avoid him recasting a new set of Sargeras gaze (which is what is causing your problem), by taunting right before the cone ends. This fixates the boss on the tank and delays the raid-cast of gaze of sargeras by a second (enough to push him into RP). If you don't taunt, he'll immidiatelly recast sargeras gaze and you get fucked (Reloe discovered this).

Also works when you taunt during the tortured Rage btw, it just depends when you hit the 70% hp to trigger p2. If you're not sure wether you push during Rage or Cone, just have one tank taunt during Rage and the other during Cone.

Btw draco I didn't discover it, I was just the one making it more public :P

[DreamSlaveOne]

Thank you for detailed answers! Gonna push for P3 tonight.

[DreamSlaveOne]

Hey, it's me again. With your help we had successfully transitioned in P3 a few times and I have another question. Why some guilds choose to die before third chains instead of second cast and what pros and cons doing that? I'm assuming it's related to raid immunity's comp and/or healing setup?

[Dracodraco]

Hey, it's me again. With your help we had successfully transitioned in P3 a few times and I have another question. Why some guilds choose to die before third chains instead of second cast and what pros and cons doing that? I'm assuming it's related to raid immunity's comp and/or healing setup?

Dying to second chains means you immune first with 2 minutes (mages, hunters, dks, rogues), die on second, immune third with everything (bubbles as well, etc), heal fourth with all cds and pray to RNGjeesus nobody dies on fifth.

Dying to third chains means you heal first with cds, immune second with 2 minutes (or all cds, depends what you prefer, we did this as we'd have more healing cds for fourth as they come back from the first set halfway through), die third, immune fourth, and pray on fifth. On second set you also dodge a set of scythes (as you die during them).

Basically, dying second chains usually means you get further into the fight, but it also makes the hardest part harder - you *will* deal with 3 sets of chains at the point where there's the least space and the boss is the most dangerous. Dying third has a steeper learning curve (gotta dodge multiple sets of scythes), but it also helps your healers the most as they get to blow cds twice in the fight (first+fourth and after towards the end), instead of just once (fourth), as you can't afford the 10 second delay in cds if you get all 3 chains (chain 1 and 4 are 2:50 minutes apart).

[Squishei]

Dying on Second Chains:

Here are the Pros I can think of:
- Don't have to deal with arguably the hardest combination of abilities in the fight (Spread, Scythes, Chains combo)
- Short immunities can immune 3 sets of chains. Turtle can do 2 sets of chains.

Cons:
- Spend a longer time dead as a raid because you have to wait for the Scythes going out
- Healers have to spend a longer time without getting a full mana bar
- Using the tree earlier means there is less recovery further on.
- Raid will still have to deal with a single stack of Chain Break on the dying wave.

Dying on Third Chains:

Here are the Pros I can think of:
- Healers get a full mana bar halfway through the phase allowing them to be inefficient but burstier on chains.
- Raid spends very minimal time dead
- Reset button is hit halfway through the phase on the raid.

Cons:
- First chains is done purely with healing cooldowns.
- Immunities on Chains 2+4 are the only ones that matter meaning Turtle only immunes 1 set and short cooldowns do 2 sets.
- Players have to deal with the hard combo abilities around Chains #2.

[hr]

Most of the recent kills are dying on 3 now and immuning 2 and 4. Chains #1 with major healing cooldowns is no problem and giving your healers a full mana bar between the RNG set of chains you have to deal with will allow them more throughput. No matter which way you go, getting 3 chains on a bad wave is very likely a wipe for a first kill, most guilds get a 2-0, 1-1 or 1-0 for their first kill. Even though you get one less immunity throughout the fight dying on 3, since you can do the first wave with cooldowns only, you pile more immunities onto two sets of waves to increase your chances of getting fewer on the RNG waves.

No matter what, at this point, it's all about staying alive, even if it means running away from the boss for a period of time. Dealing with the Rages on waves of Scythes is something you'll have to decide how to handle whether it's against the wall in front of the boss, or in the middle of the room and dodging the grid (would recommend the first)

If you like probabilities, here are some of the probabilities for some immunity waves (16 because 3 tanks, 1 dead DH). We ended up opting for 8/7 instead of an 9/6 split to, on chains #4, decrease the chance of a 3 chains and as luck pays off we hit a 0 chain on the kill. Hitting 2 chains instead of 1 on Chains #2 isn't the end of the world.

6/16 immunity wave:

0 chains - 3.6%
1 chains - 26.8%
2 chains - 48.2%
3 chains - 21.4%

7/16 immunity wave:

0 chains - 6.2%
1 chains - 33.8%
2 chains - 45%
3 chains - 15%

8/16 immunity wave:

0 chains - 10%
1 chains - 40%
2 chains - 40%
3 chains - 10%

9/16 immunity wave:

0 chains - 15%
1 chains - 45%
2 chains - 33.8%
3 chains - 6.2%

Don't forget to praise Chains RNG.

[Dracodraco]

Dying on Second Chains:


- Immunities on Chains 2+4 are the only ones that matter meaning Turtle only immunes 1 set and short cooldowns do 2 sets.

Just to chime in - with bracers, hunters can do 2+4, as the CD is reduced to 1.95 minutes. You have to pre-CD the first set of chains with 6-8 seconds before they hit, and that way turtle will be back a few seconds before chains #4 again.

Obviously for MM this costs some DPS, but for BM bracers are likely to be a perfectly viable choice (they're my strongest in combo with qa'pla, in fact), and BM has better module-burst as well, so I would count hunters in the short-cd bracket.

[Reloe]

you aren't dead very long when dying on 2nd chains either. its just that some guilds seem to not understand how scythes exactly work so they prefer to wait until they are all over.
We die on 2nd chains but we ress during scythes. We die on the inner side from the tree and then run through the tree towards the wall.

One thing I never saw anywhere mentioned is that scythes are only semi-random. Safespots for scythes will be the same every attempt. It is random wether you stand between or on top of scythes first, but the safespot is always, exactly the same. Initially I would set a safespot mark for people to run to after they ress from the tree, but in reality I never had to change that mark, ever.
That is also why it is perfectly safe to ress immediatly after chains have gone out instead of waiting for last scythes to go out.


I still think that dying on 2nd chains is the better choice. Any guild I have watched progressing the boss doing it on 3rd had a very hard time learning that point and even when they did it, it wasn't consistent either. While dying on 2nd chains is super consistent and will basically always get you to 3rd chains whenever you enter p3, its just a little bit more praying to rng.

[namnah]

I still think that dying on 2nd chains is the better choice. Any guild I have watched progressing the boss doing it on 3rd had a very hard time learning that point and even when they did it, it wasn't consistent either. While dying on 2nd chains is super consistent and will basically always get you to 3rd chains whenever you enter p3, its just a little bit more praying to rng.

This in particular ! There is not reason to die on the third chains. The healers don't need the mana anyways. The second chain combo is extremely long to learn whereas the third is much easier to learn. Blades WILL ruin many attempts if you go for the third chains suicide!

[Dracodraco]

This in particular ! There is not reason to die on the third chains. The healers don't need the mana anyways. The second chain combo is extremely long to learn whereas the third is much easier to learn. Blades WILL ruin many attempts if you go for the third chains suicide!

Depends on the guild. Our healers just spammed themselves dry with reckless abandon, which helped stabilize the raid a lot doing it on third chain - it helps "weaker" healers because you don't have to conserve at all.

Likewise, I never really saw the second chain combo as something hard - it took us maybe 5-10 attempts to do it, which I wouldn't say warrants it being a ton harder. You have to learn to dodge scythes literally instantly into the phase.

[namnah]

Depends on the guild. Our healers just spammed themselves dry with reckless abandon, which helped stabilize the raid a lot doing it on third chain - it helps "weaker" healers because you don't have to conserve at all.

Likewise, I never really saw the second chain combo as something hard - it took us maybe 5-10 attempts to do it, which I wouldn't say warrants it being a ton harder. You have to learn to dodge scythes literally instantly into the phase.

While I do agree that dodging the scythes is not a complicated mechanic on its own, I would argue that dodging a scythe while having the debuffs (rage/fear) makes it significantly harder. By suiciding at the second chains, you never have to dodge scythes while having the debuff for the whole fight and you also don't need to res and immediately dps the module as well.

The only reason for going for the suicide at three would be if you have tons of classes that can immune two non-consecutive chains which means they can immune chains 2 and 4 as opposed to only immuning 3 or 4. (Nothing happens during the first chains so immunes are irrelevant there)

[Leafcast]

Argus the Unmaker
[With realm maintenance in each region] Immunities will no longer prevent the application of Sentence of Sargeras, but can be used to mitigate the periodic damage. Sentence of Sargeras will now only target two players with each cast.

Any thoughts on how this will change how guilds deal with P3?

[Squishei]

Speaking specifically about the die on 3 strat, it really won't change much other than preventing bad RNG pulls.

3/2/die/2/3 was the minimum you wanted and this guarantees 2/2/die/2/2. It prevents a random kill when you happen to hit 0 on chains 4, but the entire phase will be way more consistent rather than having to stack immunities and hoping to god to hit at least 1 and being really sad when it's a good pull that hits 3 chains on 4.

[Reloe]

With the change I would support the suicide on 2nd chains even more as that is the hardest part of the fight and the major reason for suiciding on 3rd chains was for better immunity timings which is now irrelevant.

Usually you should break both chains immediatly and have heal cd's planned out. The only exception would be if the healer that is supposed to be popping cooldowns got chains themselves. For example a disc priest preparing his burstheal can't really move out and break his chains so then you'd only break one chain and let the 2nd one run out.

[Dracodraco]

Eh, with only 2x chains each set it's literally not going to matter what you do with 4x healers; a 1-1 break with a raid CD on the second break+rage is plenty, and with only 4x total chain sets, you can have a healer literally blow their entire load on each set, even if you didn't bother to mass ress. I could see not mass ressing at all becoming the go-to strategy, because it leaves extra resses for errors by keeping the tree alive for longer, and it gains you a *lot* of dps if everyone doesn't have to spend 5-10 seconds of being dead then ramping back up (putting out new debuffs, getting back into voidform, you get the idea), allowing you to easily breeze past the enrage with 4 healers, and probably skip the last set of chains (5th) even spawning.


That being said, ress is to be used for the sake of your healers. If they're ok with healing 2->end with one mana pool and less available cds, do it at 2 where you have orb->spread for gazes->chains->scythes (less cds because if you do 1-3-4, your cds from 3/4 will never come back for the end. Cds from 1 will come back at 4, and cds from 2 will come back at the end of the fight with 1-2-4).

If they want to spread the mana more evenly, or they aren't comfortable healing the last bit without extra cds, do it at 3, where you get orb->scythes->spread->chains.

What I'm honestly most interested in, is how they will make immunities block the damage, from a hunter POV. I know that things like Bursting, which is supposedly a DOT on your character, I can full-immune with turtle, but then I can't do shit against a DOT like Soulblight. Wonder if we have to immune *prior* to the break to negate the debuff appearing, or if I can just sit in turtle after the fact...

[Tehterokkar]

Most likely turtle will still get the damage through, but is reduced by 30% or whatever Turtle reduction is. But might also work on the dot application.

[Deleted]

Is anyone able to explain how the chain breaks work? Is it something to despell or a movement of yards to break etc.?

[masterhorus8]

Is anyone able to explain how the chain breaks work? Is it something to despell or a movement of yards to break etc.?

Move 35? yards away from where they are anchored into the ground.

Unless they fixed it, feign death should break it instantly as well.

[Ophenia]

Is anyone able to explain how the chain breaks work? Is it something to despell or a movement of yards to break etc.?

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=257966/...ce-of-sargeras