A Fundamental Misunderstanding About Allied Races

[huth]

Actually... Yes. They are.

Some are. But they aren't "just" subraces, and Ion explicitly stated that they aren't limited to variations of existing races.

Which, if we want to be honest, the Zandalari aren't. While they are lorewise related to the Darkspear, their model is vastly different.

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Well I wouldn't call that a starting area, then. Actually, you made me realise that starting areas have progressively been reduced, with WoW being an old game by now, probably because of smaller dedicated teams and lesser resources: TBC added 2 new races, each with 2 new areas and 20 levels of new content; Cata added 2 new races with only 10 new levels; MoP just one race and 10 levels. No wonder allied races will get a brief scenario at best.

It's the area they start in. So starting area is perfectly accurate.

[Deleted]

It's the area they start in. So starting area is perfectly accurate.

Semantics. My point still stands, allied races are faster to introduce than entirely new races because they reuse existing assets and they don't carry 10-20 new levels of content with them.

[Jokubas]

I thought they would absolutely be sub-races at first, but they're much more complex than that. I figured Highmountain Tauren would just be Tauren with a few extra visual options, but they even have different racials. Same with the other races - Void Elves aren't just reskinned blood elves, which would be crazy enough since they're an Alliance race, they have their own thing.

I think it's fine. Can't believe some jerks are calling it lazy. We're getting six new races this expansion, when Nightborne alone probably took as much art resources as any of the playable races up to that point.

I think one of the reasons they're controversial is because while they're theoretically a more open-ended concept than sub-races, they seemed to have missed the mark somewhat on what people wanted from that system. I've seen some people say that those who wanted sub-races should have been careful what they wished for, but like whenever you run into an evil genie, I think at least half the blame goes on an obvious misinterpretation of the wish.

A lot of people wanted sub-races, but there was a lot of disagreement on exactly what they should be. Even further, a lot of people didn't have an exact idea on how they would be implemented at all. In general, I think that's because you could boil down most sub-race discussions into two major camps:
1) People who wanted extra customization based on existing canon (tattoos on dwarves to make Wildhammer dwarves, for instance)
2) People who wanted to slip in new races by making it sound easier (people listing vrykul as a human sub-race or naga as a night elf sub-race)

So far, at least, Allied Races are sort of the worst of both worlds. They're treated like new races so it's a hassle for people who just wanted to customize existing characters, but they're barely different from existing races so it misses those who wanted something truly new. Treating them like new races may mean they get extra stuff like different racial abilities, but that wasn't usually a high priority request. That isn't to say that unique racial abilities aren't interesting, but it's appealing to a different goal. I know someone who worked on a draenei paladin relatively recently and looked forward to the new appearance options seen on Argus, only to suddenly be told with the announcement that they're going to have to do all that work again for a new race, and the slow way if they want the appropriate armor. There was no precedent to expect this, so it made sure that a fun new feature was instead an invalidation of hard work.

That's one of the reasons the Battle for Azeroth announcement seemed so underwhelming to me and, I suspect, others. I realized in hindsight at one point, though, that Blizzard probably thought they were going to blow people away with the reveal that we were technically getting six new races, but at least half the community didn't seem to see it that way. It's not necessarily an inherent problem with the system, but they made some very unfortunate choices with their first wave of Allied Races.

For the people discussing traditional new races, nothing that had been discussed (naga, ethereals, vrykul, ogres, etc.) was part of the group. This meant that people who wanted full new races were pretty much all disappointed (and many are wondering if it will even happen ever again). The closest Allied Race to this concept was probably the Nightborne, since despite their origins, had a different look and feel than their base race enough to sometimes be considered as a possible full race. Unfortunately, their choices with the Nightborne created a controversy that well overshadowed their promotion to playable (I'm an example of someone who really wanted to play a Nightborne after doing Suramar, but absolutely can't stand the way they're handling their introduction and have lost all enthusiasm).

For the people who have been asking for sub-races for years, a lot of them also feel betrayed. Sub-race discussions go back a long way, but of the six Allied Races, three are from Legion, and another one has been made up entirely for Battle for Azeroth (incidentally, these are also the only four on the main page of the Battle for Azeroth website). Only the final two have been historically asked for, and generally I think I've heard more people asking for Wildhammer Dwarves than Dark Iron (and I think most people expected them to come together as it is). I don't think it's a coincidence that Zandalari Trolls seem to be getting the most threads and positive attention. They're the Allied Race that most fits what people really wanted out of such a system.

Making them all faction-specific like traditional races was maybe not the best idea either. While most races have an established faction or one associated closely enough that it's not usually a problem, the Nightborne controversy was completely unnecessary. With the Pandaren, Blizzard made them available to both factions because they realized they were a popular race without an established allegiance, so picking one faction over the other would have made half the community feel betrayed. They did that with the Nightborne, and it vindicated the Pandaren decision because this was an absolute hype-killer.

With Allied Races as they are, I think the announcement would have gone over a lot better if the six races were instead something like Wildhammer Dwarves, Dark Iron Dwarves, High Elves, Vrykul, Nightborne, and Zandalari Trolls (and making one or two neutral couldn't have hurt). None of these would have been a lot of work either (Vrykul have both male and female versions, full animations, and basic underwear models), but then you would have had five races that have been part of sub-race discussions for years instead of only two, and one newer race that got popular quickly. That's maybe still not the best choice since there would have been controversy over two dwarves and an elf being comparatively more boring choices than the other three, but there would have been a larger established audience for each choice, and thus more built-in hype.

Circling back around to the main point, a fundamental misunderstanding about Allied Races is going to occur when they don't quite hit the notes that most people wanted out of such a system, and we're thus left wondering exactly what they're supposed to be. I mean, I jumped on the bandwagon with ogres, partially in fear of being left behind. I'm worried we may never get traditional races again, but I honestly don't know if ogres would fulfill the limitations of an Allied race either (they have an underwear model and animations, but no female at all).

[Ilir]

"lightforged are so lazy"
1 sec later "gimme eredars pleaaaase"

sums up the wow community pretty much

[Deleted]

So far, at least, Allied Races are sort of the worst of both worlds. They're treated like new races so it's a hassle for people who just wanted to customize existing characters, but they're barely different from existing races so it misses those who wanted something truly new. Treating them like new races may mean they get extra stuff like different racial abilities, but that wasn't usually a high priority request. That isn't to say that unique racial abilities aren't interesting, but it's appealing to a different goal. I know someone who worked on a draenei paladin relatively recently and looked forward to the new appearance options seen on Argus, only to suddenly be told with the announcement that they're going to have to do all that work again for a new race, and the slow way if they want the appropriate armor. There was no precedent to expect this, so it made sure that a fun new feature was instead an invalidation of hard work.

Excellent post, very well thought out. Just adding some extra thoughts (English as second language here, so please excuse my grammar). To me allied races ARE still subraces: they tend to reuse existing assets and don't carry with them 10-20 new levels of content as "new races" did. I tend to see Blizzard refusal to call them subraces as more of a diplomatic way of saying "we don't want to feel pressured to add 'child' races to all the existing ones, and we will not". This is also why I think it's very unlikely we will see subraces (call them what you prefer, the concept is still roughly the same at this point) added to the more recent ones (worgen, goblins and panderen) or even to undead or gnomes, for different reasons.
I believe the whole concept of "allied races" started in development together with their decision of scaling older content. Adding extra customisation option to existing races (and to me this is what allied races are, nothing more: just a fancy name and a clever way of marketing them and monetize them, because let's be realistic here, not everyone will endure 110 levels of scaled content just get fancy purple wings for their new emo elf) is just the right incentive for longtime players to "experience" older content once again, which is something Blizzard seem a tad overenthusiastic about.
I also think the concept is pretty clever because, with WoW being a very old game by now, it's perfect for a tighter development team and lesser resources allocated to the franchise. Reusing existing assets and not having to bother creating new starting areas is much less extra work.
I also believe allied races as a concept will not survive after BfA and its patch cycle, same as garrison, artifact weapons and class halls are going the way of the dodo now. Maybe they're thinking about adding another hero classes next, who knows. But I highly doubt that, after fat or thin humans and possibly straight backed brown orcs, we will see also playable ethereals, naga, murlocs or whatever ugly critter is left, added to the game. And I'm fine with it, WoW has enough playable races (and sub races soon) already, after 14 years.

[Aggrophobic]

It seems like a lot of people misunderstand what the allied races system is about, based on their suggestions. Now I will admit that I myself am making something of an assumption about the system, based on statements from Blizzcon and what-not, but my understanding is that Allied Races are supposed to fill in the subrace niche. As such, proper Allied Race ideas would be based on pre-existing models/skeletons. This is why (I would think at least) we are getting 6 new races as opposed to 1-2.

That is to say, ideas like Vulpa or Ogres or Ethereals fit more in the New Races category, while suggestions like Mag'har orcs, Frost Trolls, Leaper Gnomes fit more in the Allied race category.

With that said, time for my shameless Allied race suggestions, formatted to show which base race the Allied on is modeled from.


Orc: Possibly Mag'har Orcs, or maybe even Iron Orcs from WoD is Blizz decides to remember that it exists. Blackrock Orcs could also be cool.

Undead: Nothing specific, but some of the hunched elves of the past I think used similar models, Withered and Wretched come to mind. Undead elves with the Forsaken skeleton maybe? I dunno.

Tauren: Taunka and/or Yaungol pls

Trolls: There's like a million Troll variants and they all seem fine. Primal Dark Trolls could be neat.

Blood Elf: *insert High Elf tears*, Maybe San'layn? Undead Elves? Lightforged Elves?

Goblin: Gilblins maybe.

Human: Maybe a group of more solid Undead (e.g. Nathanos) Maybe a kick-ass group of Titan-forged Humans.

Dwarf: Earthen and/or Frost Dwarves pls.

Night Elf: A group of Night elves that more closely resemble their savage identity in WC3, maybe some long-lost group of proto-Night Elves.

Gnome: MECHAGNOMES F**K YEAH!

Draenei: Eredar, Void-Draenei (Let me dream ok?)

Worgen: Beats me. Maybe some kind of animal group that can use a similar skeleton as the Worgen, just without the transforming thing.

I don't know, maybe I'm crazy and we'll get Fat-Man and Tails for Allied Races ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You seem to be talking about sub-races. Thats not what Blizzard talked about, as I understand it. Some might be as simple as just a different skin color but others might differ more than that.

It's a bit cheap from a dev/game play point of view but it makes sense lore-wise.

I'm sure you can see the more complex models if there are enough people for it. Thoes level boosts and race changes can probably cover the dev costs without a problem. I mean, look at thoes little foxies!

[huth]

I tend to see Blizzard refusal to call them subraces as more of a diplomatic way of saying "we don't want to feel pressured to add 'child' races to all the existing ones, and we will not".

I think it's the other side more than this. They don't want to feel restricted to only giving this treatment to variations of existing races.

You're doing a whole lot of attributing motivations to Blizzard without knowing what went into the decision. Chances are pretty good you're wrong on most of it.
They're definitely not just extra customisation options for existing races, since some of them aren't even on the same faction as their "parent" race, and they all have new and distinct racials.

I also think the concept is pretty clever because, with WoW being a very old game by now, it's perfect for a tighter development team and lesser resources allocated to the franchise.

Except they did the exact opposite and enlarged the dev team and therefore also allocated more resources to WoW.

I also believe allied races as a concept will not survive after BfA and its patch cycle, same as garrison, artifact weapons and class halls are going the way of the dodo now.

The concept of garrisons got reimagined as order halls. Warfronts continue on from the base building concept of it. Artifacts get replaced by the Heart of Azeroth which fills the same conceptual niche. The specific implementation is left behind, the concept continues.

Which doesn't really work with Allied Races, since they can't just have a player race stop working after one expansion.

[Jokubas]

"lightforged are so lazy"
1 sec later "gimme eredars pleaaaase"

sums up the wow community pretty much

To be fair, I think that might be more of a case of people not being able to pin down what's bothering them.

There are a couple of easy differences between Eredar and Lightforged Draenei. First, Eredar are an established race (even pre-dating Draenei as we know them now), whereas Lightforged Draenei were invented in the patch before their reveal as becoming playable. Second, over time, Eredar have been established to have quite a few notable mutations (including things like wings), and for some female Eredar especially, like the Eredar Twins, it gives them a very distinct feel. Lightforged Draenei are mostly just different skin and horn options.

Eredar would be a significantly harder choice to justify working alongside us, but it's something people have a lot more attachment to. Lightforged Draenei might look more lazy by comparison to some, simply because no one knew to even expect them, let alone look forward to them.

I think that's a key element of this whole concept. There's no reason why something like Lightforged Draenei or Void Elves can't build up a fanbase over time, and things like Vulpera are getting one overnight. But when people want new races, they generally already have a race in mind that they want. I'd guess it's probably a pretty small minority that wants new races in the game without actually having anything in mind. That's one of the reasons why I don't think that the game can have too many races. It's not about number, it's about which ones. As long as prominent races like ogres aren't playable, there is always room for more. Although I'll admit things like Void Elves make me feel like it might be a good idea to quit, I think that's one of the reasons why there is controversy about this system. Some people might decide to call it lazy, but it's ultimately about getting stuff we didn't ask for, or in ways we didn't want, over the stuff we've wanted for years.

[DeicideUH]

That is to say, ideas like Vulpa or Ogres or Ethereals fit more in the New Races category, while suggestions like Mag'har orcs, Frost Trolls, Leaper Gnomes fit more in the Allied race category.

I don't agree entirely with that.

Allied races should be based on existing assets, but Zandalari show that such assets can have some extreme modifications.
Blizzard has developed a unified skeleton tech that allows them to easily copy/paste animations from a model into another. Animations are the most resource-consuming aspect of making a new race.

Vulpera era just goblin models with new heads. Their current model has a low quality head with limited animations, but if they could become allied races by just focusing on making new heads.

In the case of ogres, they could use orc female as a base for the females, while the males could use the draenor ogre model with a new face, plus they could replace any missing animations with male orc ones.

I think only completely new skeletons are out. Ethereals and hozen, for instance.

[ManiaCCC]

Thread about people misunderstanding allied races followed by post clearly showing he misunderstood allied system, followed by tons of post from other people misunderstanding of allied races system.

"Allied races are syste using existing assets"
"Nightborne/Zandalari are 90% NE assets"
"Only new skeletons are out"
"Allied races are subraces"

All of this is wrong. Models/animations/reused assets are not reason why these races are "allied races" ..it is not the point of this system. It was even explained, yet people seems to follow their own logic without listening.

Allied races is system, which allows introduce new races into the game without ALL these problems, what new races represent in the game. Starting zone experience, established lore, notable representatives, introduction to the story AND implementation them into the existing and future story, populating world (because it doesn't make sense to create major race, which has no representation in the game via cities, quest hubs, NPCs around the major hubs etc.) and much more. Creating new races wasn't just about putting some model into the game and it is done, the effort behind every race is just massive.

But not with Allied races, you can skip all this stuff and just added model into the game and call it a day. While they put more effort to some races than to others (Zandalari vs new Dwarfs), it is not necessary to go through all the loops they had to go before. Horde and Alliance will be always about these core races while these allied races are just that, allies. That's why this system is big relief for them and way how to add much more races to the game. Not because models, or assets, or skeletons or textures..but everything around.

[Deleted]

You're doing a whole lot of attributing motivations to Blizzard without knowing what went into the decision. Chances are pretty good you're wrong on most of it.

Same as you, isn't that all we do around here? Your opinions, my opinions. Chances are we are both wrong, or right.
Sorry but, I don't see how slapping a new racial on an allied race validates it to being something more than a subrace. I agree that my thinking of allied races as just extra customisation options might be a bit reductive, but some of you around here tend to think of them as entirely new races, which is possibly even more off the mark.

It's all theorycrafting and different opinions on a game forum, I don't care about it enough to spend hours trying to prove my point. You still didn't convince me that allied races are anything more than a subrace, though.

[Magicon]

It's in either one of BC interviews or the Q&A right after it.

Ion actually didn't like that people called them subraces and made a remark that they weren't. Allied races are just, well, some allied races, they only need to have some backstory that allies them w/ either Ally or Horde. They don't need to be closely related to already existing races in terms of ethnicity, etc.

It's totally expected that some proper races won't get any "subraces" at all whereas others will get more than one. Which I kinda don't like because something like HM Tauren is made into a separate race rather than a set of extended customisation options for normal Tauren, the only difference is tats and antlers. Same goes for DI Dwarves and LF spacegoats actually.

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They could give red spacegoats to Horde

Also, by your logic, you wouldn't need LF spacegoats. "You already have LF Draenei, they aren't infused w/ light and are called the Draenei..."

Yes, exactly.

[DeicideUH]

--- Too long to quote ----

You hit the jackpot here, Jokubas.

Personally, I expected a system that would be "Improved Character Customization", with all races getting lots of options, and a few races having "alternate races" with the same racials (or same end result, but new name/visuals) but new looks (Nightborne for blood elves; High elves for night elves; Forest trolls for the trolls; Forsaken elves or Nathanos-like undead for Undead; Broken for Draenei; and so on). In essence, things like Highmountain tauren, Lightforged draenei, Wildhammer dwarves or Dark Iron dwavers would be just customization options, not sub-races. Sub-races would just be the ones that use a different model from base race.

The closest to that system that we will get is the option for orcs to be straight-back or hunched over. That's the kind of thing I expected to see, but on a much larger scale.

[huth]

I agree that my thinking of allied races as just extra customisation options might be a bit reductive, but some of you around here tend to think of them as entirely new races, which is possibly even more off the mark.

Not when some high-up at Blizzard explicitly said that's a possibility.

[Deleted]

Not when some high-up at Blizzard explicitly said that's a possibility.

Everything is a possibility, so what? Are you actually trying to convince anyone around here that you know what they're planning to do because you work at Blizzard? Is that why you tend to call devs by their first name? You seem to suffer from the old "your opinions are just opinions, mine are facts" syndrome, which is cringeworthy. Not discussing this with you any further, or at least not until you cut the condescending crap in your posts and get off your high horse.

[Deleted]

"lightforged are so lazy"
1 sec later "gimme eredars pleaaaase"

sums up the wow community pretty much

This. Quoted for the holy truth. +1

[Teri]

Troll/Dwarf/Tauren/Draenei/Nightelf/Bloodelf, probably won't get a 2nd allied race anytime soon unless they become super integral to new story.

(Yes I know Nightborne and Void Elf are swapped around)

[huth]

Everything is a possibility, so what?

They specificially pointed out that they're not limited to variations of existing races.

That's a bit different than just saying "it could happen".

[Deleted]

It seems like a lot of people misunderstand what the allied races system is about, based on their suggestions. Now I will admit that I myself am making something of an assumption about the system, based on statements from Blizzcon and what-not, but my understanding is that Allied Races are supposed to fill in the subrace niche. As such, proper Allied Race ideas would be based on pre-existing models/skeletons. This is why (I would think at least) we are getting 6 new races as opposed to 1-2.

That is to say, ideas like Vulpa or Ogres or Ethereals fit more in the New Races category, while suggestions like Mag'har orcs, Frost Trolls, Leaper Gnomes fit more in the Allied race category.

With that said, time for my shameless Allied race suggestions, formatted to show which base race the Allied on is modeled from.


Orc: Possibly Mag'har Orcs, or maybe even Iron Orcs from WoD is Blizz decides to remember that it exists. Blackrock Orcs could also be cool.

Undead: Nothing specific, but some of the hunched elves of the past I think used similar models, Withered and Wretched come to mind. Undead elves with the Forsaken skeleton maybe? I dunno.

Tauren: Taunka and/or Yaungol pls

Trolls: There's like a million Troll variants and they all seem fine. Primal Dark Trolls could be neat.

Blood Elf: *insert High Elf tears*, Maybe San'layn? Undead Elves? Lightforged Elves?

Goblin: Gilblins maybe.

Human: Maybe a group of more solid Undead (e.g. Nathanos) Maybe a kick-ass group of Titan-forged Humans.

Dwarf: Earthen and/or Frost Dwarves pls.

Night Elf: A group of Night elves that more closely resemble their savage identity in WC3, maybe some long-lost group of proto-Night Elves.

Gnome: MECHAGNOMES F**K YEAH!

Draenei: Eredar, Void-Draenei (Let me dream ok?)

Worgen: Beats me. Maybe some kind of animal group that can use a similar skeleton as the Worgen, just without the transforming thing.

I don't know, maybe I'm crazy and we'll get Fat-Man and Tails for Allied Races ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I would love to get San'layn and at least one additional Troll race beside the Zandalari. Taunka and Yaungol could also fit quite well. Kvaldir would possibly a good fit to the Forsaken. And if they add Eredar, they should join the Horde. This faction has more experience with such type of people. Wretched / Withered don't make good player characters, or races. They are more like zombies, while Forsaken have a free will.

On Alliance side, definitively Wildhammer Dwarves. Also probably stone dwarves and clockwork gnomes. Possibly High Elves, at least if the Horde gets Eredar. Some other Human kingdoms could also join, and the Vrykul. If they make Kaluak an Allied Race, they would probably join Alliance.

[Hastis]

where is a difrence bettween vulpera and nightborn cuz vulpera is made from goblin sooo xxD