For those who play both Sub & Sin...

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Which do you use for what? How do you decide?

I've only played my rogue alt a wee bit this expansion, so am no expert, but my newly formed M+ team is BrM-Resto Druid-Warrior-Mage-Rogue.

The rogue has always played Sin, but the warrior and mage are keen on him learning Sub because they believe it will be better for M+. We all like the player and want him on team regardless. He is great at executing all the rogue utility stuff. He is willing to try whatever to help the team, but reluctant because his numbers would go down while learning even if they came up again eventually.

I myself am open minded and eager to hear more expert opinions.

[Deleted]

I exclusively play Sin.

Its the better spec for raiding, but not so much for m+.

Sin is better for tyranical weeks, but Sub has better/more consistent AoE.

Either way, sub plays like absolute SHIT, you are basically just setting everything up for DfA's but outside of that you never have energy and do nothing.

[Ukalnar]

PERSONAL opinion: Instance-based. Some instances are better for sin, like NL, CoS and Upper Kara. Not enought mobs to AoE, but good enough for multi-dotting and alot of single target. The rest are well suited for sub, lots of aoe, good number of mobs in a pack.
And while I hate sub myself, it does not play like shit. With legendary cloak, umbral glaives, 2 pieces T20 and other trinkets swaps, you will have alot to do outside of your own cooldowns, buffing stuff with vanish, dance and symbols.
And while sin will pretty much be better on tyrannical, every time there are mobs present in a boss encounter sub will pull ahead if the tank plays it right.
Then again, if you have arms and fire in the group, he's better of playing sin, the other 2 can just melt the aoe-packs.
P.S. Ditch the warrior, lul.

[henkish]

I play rogue in semi high keys (22-25) and yes it's instance, group or affix-based. Instances I prefer assassination on is pretty much only Seat and Upper Kara. Arcway can work too. Instances when there's too much kiting going on that would otherwise suit assassin such as NL and HoV I don't really bother with it, I get too sad when I get bomb procs on things running away. Unless for some reason you run without a warlock and really need the crippling poison.

As for affixes, sub on skittish for the juicy tricks, especially if there's another melee, sub on explosive. Sub on tyrannical if you want to be any bit of use for trash, the difference in boss dps (if any) is negligible.

Generally, sub is superior. Especially after the PK nerfs a few weeks ago, and the subsequent bugfix-nerf to PK just a week ago. Tell your rogue to learn it.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I play rogue in semi high keys (22-25) and yes it's instance, group or affix-based. Instances I prefer assassination on is pretty much only Seat and Upper Kara. Arcway can work too. Instances when there's too much kiting going on that would otherwise suit assassin such as NL and HoV I don't really bother with it, I get too sad when I get bomb procs on things running away. Unless for some reason you run without a warlock and really need the crippling poison.

As for affixes, sub on skittish for the juicy tricks, especially if there's another melee, sub on explosive. Sub on tyrannical if you want to be any bit of use for trash, the difference in boss dps (if any) is negligible.

Generally, sub is superior. Especially after the PK nerfs a few weeks ago, and the subsequent bugfix-nerf to PK just a week ago. Tell your rogue to learn it.

Some good details in there. Skittish isn't really a thing for us, because double keg smash is ridiculous snap-agro. And keg smash is also a 50% snare, so all our mobs are always slowed without even trying. I confess I am guilty of kiting mobs away from poison bombs. As Brewmaster, smashing and kiting is reflex. I'm sure it drives the rogues a wee bit crazy.

- - - Updated - - -

PERSONAL opinion: Instance-based. Some instances are better for sin, like NL, CoS and Upper Kara. Not enought mobs to AoE, but good enough for multi-dotting and alot of single target. The rest are well suited for sub, lots of aoe, good number of mobs in a pack.
And while I hate sub myself, it does not play like shit. With legendary cloak, umbral glaives, 2 pieces T20 and other trinkets swaps, you will have alot to do outside of your own cooldowns, buffing stuff with vanish, dance and symbols.
And while sin will pretty much be better on tyrannical, every time there are mobs present in a boss encounter sub will pull ahead if the tank plays it right.
Then again, if you have arms and fire in the group, he's better of playing sin, the other 2 can just melt the aoe-packs.
P.S. Ditch the warrior, lul.

That's good stuff too. I think the best answer is for him to work toward being comfortable with both.

[shaunika123]

Either way, sub plays like absolute SHIT, you are basically just setting everything up for DfA's but outside of that you never have energy and do nothing.

yeah, strategy and planning are such terrible things

why not speak for yourself? I get it you like assa better, but saying sub plays like shit just means you havent a clue as to how to play it.

I think assa is mind numblingly boring and requires no thought whatsoever, you just slam your cooldowns and spam envenom. occasionally you pool but due to how disjointed your cooldowns are you very rarely have time to actually do it.

[elfporn]

Assination can do extremely well with the right gear setup and aoe rotation - i use 2p t20 and 4p t21. For trash i garrote and rupture one target and Fok 3x envenom 1x to put out pk/instant poison damage and maintain envenom and viruent poisons buffs. Wearing bracers ofc. I run with 40% crit too. The dmg isn’t front loaded, but is very consistently high over time, with boosts from any pb procs.

On a fortified week i can keep up with fire mage some of the time, and generally do excellently on overall dmg. Tyrannical weeks it’s all about boss dmg (of course) and trash generally dies too quickly.

It will come down to gear loadout for min/maxing. If your rogue has shitloads of vers/mastery gear, favor sub, if your setup has mastery heavy crit, roll with assination.

Both specs can perform equally well - particularly after the recent buffs, but have different (niche) dmg rates, types, and strengths.

Edit: It’s also worth noting that relics can play a huge part in efficacy as well - Master alchemist relics in particular(i have 3) and a couple pk or balanced blades traits would go a long way for increasing dmg **in mythic+** (personal goal is 3 master alch, 2 bb, 1 master ass - for raiding)

[Deleted]

Both are playable. Depends what you like more. Dot classes, or burst classes? I personally hate dot classes

[Master Guns]

Sin is more versatile imo. I do 15s-17s regularly and my sin rogue is usually top dps for most, unless poison bomb doesn’t proc.

[Video Games]

I exclusively play Sin.

Its the better spec for raiding, but not so much for m+.

Sin is better for tyranical weeks, but Sub has better/more consistent AoE.

Either way, sub plays like absolute SHIT, you are basically just setting everything up for DfA's but outside of that you never have energy and do nothing.

You are silly. Sub is awesome because its planning and not praying for rng wack a mole button light ups like most other specs.

[Master Guns]

People who say sub has better AoE, you people are absurd.

Can you do 10M DPS on a trash pack? No? I can with poison bomb. 12% chance is RNG, but over the course of an entire instance, it is more DPS.

[Varolyn]

I mean, none of the rogue specs have great aoe at all. People play sub more in M+ because of it's great priority target burst, and having a bunch of adds around makes that an even stronger niche for sub. But in terms of overall aoe damage? A ton of specs can pull a lot more than what a sub rogue could do.

Sub edges out assassination in M+ in most affixes/dungeons, but the difference really isn't big enough to be a difference maker. Sub also suffers from really bad gear scaling, so that might be something to consider, but I say just play the spec you enjoy at this point. In regards to raiding, pretty much the same story on personal preference but assassin appears to be better than sub overall.

[elfporn]

People who say sub has better AoE, you people are absurd.

Can you do 10M DPS on a trash pack? No? I can with poison bomb. 12% chance is RNG, but over the course of an entire instance, it is more DPS.

You’ll get more consistently higher dps by not fishing for pb specifically and pumping out more FoK’s while maintaining envenom and virulent poisons. PB procs are just a bonus at that point.

[Master Guns]

I mean, none of the rogue specs have great aoe at all. People play sub more in M+ because of it's great priority target burst, and having a bunch of adds around makes that an even stronger niche for sub. But in terms of overall aoe damage? A ton of specs can pull a lot more than what a sub rogue could do.

Sub edges out assassination in M+ in most affixes/dungeons, but the difference really isn't big enough to be a difference maker. Sub also suffers from really bad gear scaling, so that might be something to consider, but I say just play the spec you enjoy at this point. In regards to raiding, pretty much the same story on personal preference but assassin appears to be better than sub overall.

Got some links/proof that sub "edges out assass" in m+?

[shaunika123]

People who say sub has better AoE, you people are absurd.

Can you do 10M DPS on a trash pack? No? I can with poison bomb. 12% chance is RNG, but over the course of an entire instance, it is more DPS.

yes, I can. it's called umbral moonglaives

next

[ymirsson]

People who say sub has better AoE, you people are absurd.

Can you do 10M DPS on a trash pack? No? I can with poison bomb. 12% chance is RNG, but over the course of an entire instance, it is more DPS.

Who cares if you do 5 or 10M on a trashpack?

I regularly oneshot open world mobs with 8M DPS, but that's irrelevant too.

[shaunika123]

Who cares if you do 5 or 10M on a trashpack?

I regularly oneshot open world mobs with 8M DPS, but that's irrelevant too.

seeing as a mythic+ is about 90% trash packs, it does matter.

[Master Guns]

Who cares if you do 5 or 10M on a trashpack?

I regularly oneshot open world mobs with 8M DPS, but that's irrelevant too.

I sincerely hope that was a joke

[enragedgorilla]

For me , I find Sin FAR more forgiving in a raid environment.
I am not a top 50-1000 Guild.
We are not even doing Mythic yet.
I am "older" , I am Casual.
That is my point of view.

[Varolyn]

Got some links/proof that sub "edges out assass" in m+?

The point of my post wasn't to prove how sub is the better M+ spec, the point of it was to show that it really doesn't matter all that much what spec you play in M+. They both bring the same utility, which is the biggest selling point for rogues in M+ anyway.