[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[zEmini]

Again, for the entirety of the Original Trilogy, all we learned about the Emperor was;
1> He's the Emperor. He doesn't need a name.
2> He has lightning hands.
3> Vader's afraid of him. Vader.

That's basically it. We basically already know more about Snoke after two films than we ever knew about Palpatine, from the first three.

And how many SW films were there before ANH? Therefore his backstory isn't as important as it would of been for already established franchise.

Besides, in ANH, we know that must be an emperor in order for the Empire to exist. I don't think this analogy even applies.

It reminds me of the Xindi (snoke) who just appeared out of no where in the ST universe. Apparently these neighbors where never mentioned once until Enterprise.

[Babadoo]

It's funny how prequels improved with each instalment and now we have the polar opposite.

[eschatological]

The big bad villian behind the main villian still needs to be more than a pawn for plot. Star Wars has always been about the Good Jedi versus the Bad Sith/Dark force user/whatever and to have that type of character appear out of thin air by Disney isn't very good story telling. General Hux doesn't need the same level of explaining since we know - as established in the opening crawl - that he is a remnant of the Empire. To think of it, if Snoke was just a Admiral/non force user instead, then I don't think we would have such a problem.

Literally the whole point of this movie was to say "SW isn't just about Good vs. Bad any more." They went further to say "Legends are bad." Hell, Kylo is so obsessed with Luke because of his legendary status. He was a flawless Jesus figure, and when Luke has his "moment of doubt and pain," it's too much for Kylo, he snaps, and is driven straight to the Dark Side, whose seeds were already planted in him because every Force user has both the Light and the Dark in them, which is literally the lesson Luke is trying to teach Rey. And why Rey is so naive - because she believes she can "turn" Kylo from bad to good, as if it is such a dichotomy. If Kylo was able to look at Luke as a human being, flawed and subject to making mistakes, and could understand that, instead of deifying him as some sort of legend, perhaps the whole thing could have been avoided.

It's fine to not like those choices. But that doesn't make it bad writing or bad characters or bad storytelling. All of those things were brilliant in this movie, except for the Canto Bight sequence. I've said since opening week that this is a very good movie - but if you expect it to "fit" into a genre of space opera that has traditionally been SW, then no, it's not a good Star Wars movie. Rian Johnson is trying to literally change what Star Wars is - not just in terms of the Force and the dichotomy between Jedi and Sith - but in terms of genre.

That's why I'm excited for Rian's attempt at a trilogy of his own.

[Fabinas]

Those answers don't contribute to the story being told in the films. They could be meat for some new films set in the 25 years between RotJ and TFA, but they contribute nothing to the current storyline. Which, again, is not about Snoke.



Don't do that.

The OT stood up just fine for 26 years without any backstory for the Emperor. In fact, it's quite arguable that revealing his backstory in the prequels cheapened the character significantly.

The rise of Palpatine and the fall of Anakin is the story of the prequels. It is NOT the story of the OT, and that's why those stories were told separately. You've cited a clear example that disproves your own argument, basically.

If we follow the pattern set by the previous films, we'll get that Snoke backstory. It'll be in another trilogy, set between RotJ and TFA, and we should see the first film in that series in, oh, 2041 or so.

You must be autistic. You get a reply that shows you there's a story thread unfollowed and, yet, you keep babbling about how it not matters for the current story. Yes, we already agreed on that. Matters or not, it's a void that has to be completed. And even if it didn't matter, for the sake of consistency, it COULD have been completed.
What happened JUST on the OT does not matter when we have 8 movies with a bonded timeline and a solid story. Just because GL told it in an upside down way, doesn't mean that the new movies are in a vacuum of their own. They are banded and bonded with that story line.

Infracted.

[Nefarious Tea]

I don't see how that would have contributed anything of value to the story. Why do you think Snoke's origin even matters to the story being told? Palpatine's origin didn't matter to the OT, which is why it's not delved into, there.

Because Snoke's existence doesn't make sense given the OT. It's not like we needed to know who Palpatine was in the OT, because him being Emperor told us all we needed to know for the narrative.

But the new trilogy is set within living memory of Return of the Jedi (and within living memory of the prequels, but that particular fact isn't important here). Palpatine obsessively hunted down Force-sensitives while Emperor in an effort to keep his rule unchallenged. Presumably, the only reason he wanted Luke alive was because he wanted to replacing his aging model Skywalker with a newer one.

It makes zero sense for there to be someone like Snoke around in the aftermath of Palpatine doing that, especially given how aged Snoke is. He was easily alive during the OT, and probably during the prequels as well. You're right, the archetype Snoke falls under doesn't need explanation in a vacuum. But we have in-universe sixty years worth of worldbuilding (even ignoring the EU), wherein an aggressively powerful Dark Side user is inconsistent with established lore. It's essentially impossible that someone as strong as Snoke went unnoticed by Palpatine. We learn that Luke has known of him for years, and that's fine, but the narrative needs to explain how Snoke is possible.

[eschatological]

But the new trilogy is set within living memory of Return of the Jedi (and within living memory of the prequels, but that particular fact isn't important here). Palpatine obsessively hunted down Force-sensitives while Emperor in an effort to keep his rule unchallenged. Presumably, the only reason he wanted Luke alive was because he wanted to replacing his aging model Skywalker with a newer one.

It makes zero sense for there to be someone like Snoke around in the aftermath of Palpatine doing that, especially given how aged Snoke is. He was easily alive during the OT, and probably during the prequels as well. You're right, the archetype Snoke falls under doesn't need explanation in a vacuum. But we have in-universe sixty years worth of worldbuilding (even ignoring the EU), wherein an aggressively powerful Dark Side user is inconsistent with established lore. It's essentially impossible that someone as strong as Snoke went unnoticed by Palpatine. We learn that Luke has known of him for years, and that's fine, but the narrative needs to explain how Snoke is possible.

Where is that happening? The Emperor must have known Yoda and Obi Wan escaped, but there's no hint in the movies the Emperor is actively searching them out at all. I mean, Obi Wan's hiding spot isn't even a good one, it's the planet where Anakin, his apprentice, was born and raised.

I know Rebels has things like Inquisitors looking for Force sensitives, but if there's anything that series reinforces, it's that they could never finish their work, because how many Force sensitive people out there never ends.

[Frontenac]

Where do you get Luke being in his 40s from? Luke trained in the Force in the 3 years between ANH and ESB. He learned how to do it. It's not an unconscious ability.

Force Pull actually isn't the easiest trick in the book. Otherwise, TPM Anakin would easily be able to do it. He knows what the Jedi are, and by extension the Force. He can't do it. Qui-gon literally tells him that Anakin needs to learn how to listen to the Midichlorians.

Force Pull, if we have to call it in a game manner, is indeed quite easy to achieve. Yoda himself asked Luke to do it in Episode V. Luke was just a beginner then.

[Nefarious Tea]

Where is that happening? The Emperor must have known Yoda and Obi Wan escaped, but there's no hint in the movies the Emperor is actively searching them out at all. I mean, Obi Wan's hiding spot isn't even a good one, it's the planet where Anakin, his apprentice, was born and raised.

I know Rebels has things like Inquisitors looking for Force sensitives, but if there's anything that series reinforces, it's that they could never finish their work, because how many Force sensitive people out there never ends.

Well, yes. If you killed every Force-sensitive in the Galaxy (somehow), the next day a new Force-sensitive would be born. I never said that Palpatine's minions were stunningly effective, but they did have their orders. I hate to invoke Godwin's law, but the Nazis never killed anywhere near every Jew in Europe, though they killed many.

In the case of Yoda and Obi Wan specifically, the Emperor probably thought they were dead. No clone sees Obi Wan escape from Utapau - they think he died in the fall when they shoot his varactyl off the cliff. The clones Palpatine sent to look for Yoda think he's dead, too.

The point I was trying to make was less that no new Force-sensitives were popping up, it was that when one that strong, that old, and dare I say, that evil pops up, after ROTJ, the internal timeline of the Star Wars universe demands an explanation for how he got to be around, when he did.

[Fabinas]

Because Snoke's existence doesn't make sense given the OT. It's not like we needed to know who Palpatine was in the OT, because him being Emperor told us all we needed to know for the narrative.

But the new trilogy is set within living memory of Return of the Jedi (and within living memory of the prequels, but that particular fact isn't important here). Palpatine obsessively hunted down Force-sensitives while Emperor in an effort to keep his rule unchallenged. Presumably, the only reason he wanted Luke alive was because he wanted to replacing his aging model Skywalker with a newer one.

It makes zero sense for there to be someone like Snoke around in the aftermath of Palpatine doing that, especially given how aged Snoke is. He was easily alive during the OT, and probably during the prequels as well. You're right, the archetype Snoke falls under doesn't need explanation in a vacuum. But we have in-universe sixty years worth of worldbuilding (even ignoring the EU), wherein an aggressively powerful Dark Side user is inconsistent with established lore. It's essentially impossible that someone as strong as Snoke went unnoticed by Palpatine. We learn that Luke has known of him for years, and that's fine, but the narrative needs to explain how Snoke is possible.

What people fail to understand is that we just demanded to know who Snoke was and how he became of prominence after the Empire collapse. Not because it would make TLJ a better movie with a better story. But because his existence, without explanation, is invalidated, as shown by Veredyn's post.
I personally have no hate of the movie. But what i do hate is that this part of the story is not even hinted at all. Whatever vague points about Snoke mentioned in both TFA and TLJ leave a story untold within the whole SW story that are the 8 movies. And personally, I would prefer that story at least mentioned IN the movies, instead of any other medium.

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Well, yes. If you killed every Force-sensitive in the Galaxy (somehow), the next day a new Force-sensitive would be born. I never said that Palpatine's minions were stunningly effective, but they did have their orders. I hate to invoke Godwin's law, but the Nazis never killed anywhere near every Jew in Europe, though they killed many.

In the case of Yoda and Obi Wan specifically, the Emperor probably thought they were dead. No clone sees Obi Wan escape from Utapau - they think he died in the fall when they shoot his varactyl off the cliff. The clones Palpatine sent to look for Yoda think he's dead, too.

The point I was trying to make was less that no new Force-sensitives were popping up, it was that when one that strong, that old, and dare I say, that evil pops up, after ROTJ, the internal timeline of the Star Wars universe demands an explanation for how he got to be around, when he did.

Also, how he was not detected by Vader and Palp, but Luke seems to know his existence. Even a damn expanation that he arose as a dark force powerful user to fill the void Vader and Palp left would have been enough. Although i do hate the retcon that Force self-balances and the number (or maybe power?) of force users is equal on each force side.

[Magicalcrab]

Because Snoke's existence doesn't make sense given the OT. It's not like we needed to know who Palpatine was in the OT, because him being Emperor told us all we needed to know for the narrative.

But the new trilogy is set within living memory of Return of the Jedi (and within living memory of the prequels, but that particular fact isn't important here). Palpatine obsessively hunted down Force-sensitives while Emperor in an effort to keep his rule unchallenged. Presumably, the only reason he wanted Luke alive was because he wanted to replacing his aging model Skywalker with a newer one.

It makes zero sense for there to be someone like Snoke around in the aftermath of Palpatine doing that, especially given how aged Snoke is. He was easily alive during the OT, and probably during the prequels as well. You're right, the archetype Snoke falls under doesn't need explanation in a vacuum. But we have in-universe sixty years worth of worldbuilding (even ignoring the EU), wherein an aggressively powerful Dark Side user is inconsistent with established lore. It's essentially impossible that someone as strong as Snoke went unnoticed by Palpatine. We learn that Luke has known of him for years, and that's fine, but the narrative needs to explain how Snoke is possible.

The narrative really, really doesn't need to explain Snoke at all. I feel like this is the major problem with the EU and the Prequels; the idea that Star Wars as a universe is somehow complex and full of RULES and HARD ESTABLISHED LORE and scientific explanations for why Darth Vader doesn't jump around and do stupid flips.
Star Wars, as it were in the original trilogy, was just a silly action movie blockbuster series about a hero's tale, told in space with space swords.
The Prequels, however, tried to be a series of "smarter" films filled with heavy political commentary (like literal quotes from George W. Bush) and rooted in hard science fiction (midichlorians).

The original trilogy dealt with really simple concepts and feelings. You didn't care about which model of AT-AT walkers were used - they were just there for one scene and then they were gone.
And yet, for some reason, there's a wiki article explaining the biology of every not-so-subtly racist alien depicted in Star Wars throughout the years. Because we need those, apparently. We supposedly need information about what kind of food Watto eats, or when Jettster Dexter originally set up his silly 60's diner.
For reasons.

The big point I'm trying to make is that Star Wars - as much as you might want it to be clever and meticulously planned - is a lot stupider than you think. The writers don't care about Wookiepedia's consistency or anything, because in Star Wars they mostly just write stories that deal with broad strokes and lofty ideals presented alongside bombastic music.
Who Snoke is, in the grand scheme of STAR WARS™ LORE, doesn't actually matter, in a narrative sense - because the narrative doesn't revolve around him and it never actually pretended to care about explaining logistical details like that (outside of the Prequels and the EU, that is. But those were also stupid.). What matters is who Snoke is to Kylo Ren. What is their relationship? What does Snoke represent in this vague, lofty feelings-based narrative?
A bad dude.
The final boss.
Kylo beat up the bad dude and became the final boss now.

That's literally it.
I'm pretty sure that's all they wrote in the script, too. For efficiency's sake.

The original trilogy never bothered to sit down and explain how Leia, despite being one of the chosen Jesus twins, had a great relationship with Obi-Wan Kenobi whereas Luke didn't. Why would Obi-Wan keep Luke in the dark for so many years, but not Leia? What?
EEHHH DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT LUKE IS TOO BUSY FIGHTING THE BAD DUDES PEW PEW BSSHHHH SHWOOP BANG

excuse me why didn't the movie stop for thirty seconds to explain this factoid
why didn't the twins just train with Yoda on Dagobah from birth or whatever

Because who cares. That's why.

Star Wars™ was always more about this:



Star Wars™ was never actually about this:



I'm not saying the story in a Star Wars movie doesn't have to make sense in and of itself. Of course not. There should always be a sense of internal logic, for sure. But with Star Wars, whenever it comes down to "Feelings of the Moment" vs. "Wookiepedia's Accuracy Rating", the feelsy feels always win, and the details that do fall to the wayside usually do so for a good reason.

Edit:
Just to be clear, I don't want to come off as if liking the silly EU lore and occasionally browsing Wookiepedia for fun is somehow a universally bad thing and that anyone who does that should feel bad, or anything. It's fine! You do you!
But

uhh

You should probably know that the big dumb Disney movies probably aren't going to cater to that strand of the fanbase. And that's fine too.

[RobertoCarlos]

dat dark hole on the island though...pretty cool. Rey was all up in that darkside

[PACOX]

Well, I'll give you that; Poe is the only competent character but unfortunately he triggers the whole "side quest", simply because Leia is an irrational idiot just as much as Admiral Tumblrina.

Poe is so competent that he is the reason the Resistance wasn't able to jump lose the First Order in the first place. The Resistance was fleeing its last base, they had room a window of opportunity to jump away...but nope, Poe wants to down a dreadnaught so he gets the remaining Resistance squadrons caught up in a skirmish that they did not need to fight, couldn't afford to fight, would be their last major fight.

And then (LOL)...and then...Poe's bright idea is to send a mechanic and turncoat half way across the galaxy to find some hacker, a hacker (genius move, Poe) who is partying with FO arms dealers. When he does hear about the real plan, the genius still nearly compromises the mission...meanwhile his brilliant plan is falling about.

All Poe had to do was follow orders and a lot more people would've made it out alive. Nope, he has to play Captain Save-the-day. Smart.

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It's funny how prequels improved with each instalment and now we have the polar opposite.

Thats because the prequels went from a mountain of shit, to a pile of shit, to a wet fart. So yes, technically they did get better with each passing movie.

[RobertoCarlos]

Poe is so competent that he is the reason the Resistance wasn't able to jump lose the First Order in the first place. The Resistance was fleeing its last base, they had room a window of opportunity to jump away...but nope, Poe wants to down a dreadnaught so he gets the remaining Resistance squadrons caught up in a skirmish that they did not need to fight, couldn't afford to fight, would be their last major fight.

And then (LOL)...and then...Poe's bright idea is to send a mechanic and turncoat half way across the galaxy to find some hacker, a hacker (genius move, Poe) who is partying with FO arms dealers. When he does hear about the real plan, the genius still nearly compromises the mission...meanwhile his brilliant plan is falling about.

All Poe had to do was follow orders and a lot more people would've made it out alive. Nope, he has to play Captain Save-the-day. Smart.

To be fair the yoda lady told him about the code breaker so its from a pretty valid source....finn and rose just get a different dude sitting in a jail cell instead

[PACOX]

To be fair the yoda lady told him about the code breaker so its from a pretty valid source....finn and rose just get a different dude sitting in a jail cell instead

Did Poe even know her? I also think they found the right guy (could be mistaken), then other guy being a middle man to contact the true code breaker. Otherwise him being in the right place at the right time is a huge plot hole.

[RobertoCarlos]

Did Poe even know her? I also think they found the right guy (could be mistaken), then other guy being a middle man to contact the true code breaker. Otherwise him being in the right place at the right time is a huge plot hole.

I dont think Poe meet her at the bar scene in TFA no. But you know...resistance members talk and shes a key figure lol.

They found the red bloom'd code breaker then immediately get thrown out of the casino for illegal parking (not kidding) before getting a chance to speak to him.

And del toro simply over heard them in the jail cell as he was "asleep" and offered his services, which they refuse until he helps them escape

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Now I remember, poe defiantly didnt meet her because he turns up in the heroic moment when said bar is under attack in his X-wing, but he would surely know who she is.

[PACOX]

They found the red bloom'd code breaker then immediately get thrown out of the casino for illegal parking (not kidding) before getting a chance to speak to him.

And del toro simply over heard them in the jail cell as he was "asleep" and offered his services, which they refuse until he helps them escape

What I meant was the man with flower acts as del toro's eyes and ears. What good is an actually code breaker if he is going around looking like James Bond. Flower guy tips off del toro about Rose and Finn (wouldn't be too hard to tell that they were looking for someone) , del toro (who obviously doesn't have a problem getting in and out of jail) sneaks into jail to meet them. I just cant buy that there were two code breakers in the same spot, again, I could be wrong. Flower guy also doesn't appear as rogueish as Maz's normal associates.

[RobertoCarlos]

What I meant was the man with flower acts as del toro's eyes and ears. What good is an actually code breaker if he is going around looking like James Bond. Flower guy tips off del toro about Rose and Finn (wouldn't be too hard to tell that they were looking for someone) , del toro (who obviously doesn't have a problem getting in and out of jail) sneaks into jail to meet them. I just cant buy that there were two code breakers in the same spot, again, I could be wrong. Flower guy also doesn't appear as rogueish as Maz's normal associates.

I mean its possible but I dont recall seeing any signals that go along with that theory. I agree its awfully convenient they meet a fellow code breaker in the jail cell but this is a planet full of scum remember

The only clues I could think of that suggest that is how the two girls with the red flower guy ask "what was that about" after they get thrown out, but hes more interested in the dice game anyway.

2nd one maybe is how he fleeced them for some money and settles for roses medallion but then gives it back to her after using it on the first order ship.

And he ends up betraying them anyway /shrug

[Magicalcrab]

I think its very sad to diminish all the success Star Wars has built up over the years outside of the OT, the universe and its lore has evolved since then and to continuously hold it to OT standards is just insulting to the decades of work put into it.

We've grown with the universe and enjoyed seeing it detailed and explained over time, to have any kind of expectation is completely rational, and for people to decry anything EU or non-movie related is rather dissapointing.

That being said the universe belongs to Disney now, and I'm not expecting anything to improve for me. George Lucas is done and he took all of his work with him, whatever comes now is something completely different, its the only reason we're having this discussion and its the reason why theres such a divide currently.

I mean, while there's plenty of silly EU stuff out there, there are a few nuggets I personally like.
I don't have a problem separating the two, however. The EU is its own thing, and I never expected Disney to in any way try to emulate it. Let's be honest, what kind of a creator wants to be chained to that kind of weird continuity when writing their new billion dollar action movie?

I actually have a problem trying to view Star Wars as a whole, continuous story with a beginning, middle and an end, and perhaps that's why I'm on this particular side of the divide. With my media background, I have a hard time separating movies and works of fiction from their creators, the time they were written, and the context in which they were made.
In my head, the Prequels are a wholly separate Star Wars story - one that I largely dismiss because I disagree with it. When I think of the original Star Wars trilogy, I think back to sitting in a sofa as a tiny babbu crab and clutching a pillow tighter and tighter as Luke fights Darth Vader.
Then I read some books by Timothy Zahn, sure. But they're not what stuck with me. And they're still out there for people to enjoy them, as their own thing, written in a different time, by different people.
Just like these Disney movies are their own thing, written in a new era, by and FOR different people.

To expect them all to be entirely consistent with each other in every respect is setting an impossibly high standard. Which is why I prefer to judge these movies as their own thing, with their own aspirations and goals, rather than projecting my knowledge of the EU or any other version of Star Wars onto them.
If they're trying to emulate the same whimsical style of storytelling as the originals, we should judge them by the standards they set for themselves. That's all.

[Nefarious Tea]

*A ton of whining about the EU, which barely, possibly, maybe tangentially relates to the post quoted

Did you... even read what I wrote? The only time I mentioned the EU was specifically to say I was ignoring it for the purposes of the post I made. Even using literally just what we see on-screen in the movies and in the Rebels cartoon, Snoke doesn't fit into the Star Wars universe. That's my point. The movies don't have room for some obnoxiously powerful Dark Side user to appear out of thin air. That is why the character demands an explanation. Here, I'll spell it out for you so it's obvious:


WHERE THE FUCK WAS SNOKE WHEN PALPATINE WAS EMPEROR, AND WHY DID PALPATINE IGNORE HIM WHEN LITERALLY EVERY OTHER FORCE USER WAS ON HIS HIT LIST? WHY DID LUKE IGNORE HIM?

With what we know happens in the Star Wars universe, using only the movies and current TV show as reference, Snoke's entire existence is highly implausible at best. What he is - a powerful Dark Side master - is not unusual. It's WHEN he is that's the problem, especially with what we know JUST from Episodes VII and VIII. Snoke's mere existence makes Luke Skywalker look like a complete idiot. Luke flat-out tells Rey in TLJ that he knew about Snoke. He KNEW a manipulative and powerful Dark Side Force user was out and about and he established another Jedi school, full of pupils RIPE for seduction to the Dark Side anyway. Herp. Fucking. Derp. Luke.

This is why Snoke requires an explanation. Because a whole lot of very important characters in one movie or another completely ignored him. He literally appears out of nowhere and it makes no sense.

[Magicalcrab]

This is why Snoke requires an explanation. Because a whole lot of very important characters in one movie or another completely ignored him. He literally appears out of nowhere and it makes no sense.

I feel like there are only so many ways I can explain why it doesn't actually matter in the broader narrative, and why you shouldn't care.
I mean, sure, maybe you'll get your explanation in some sort of flashback in episode 9, or maybe not.
Maybe in 26 years you'll get the Disney Star Wars prequel you want, that explains how Snoke hid in a barrel for two decades and then used a topical political analogy to assume control of the First Order.

My point was that it usually doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense to you, because some things in movies just don't, and Star Wars has historically been one of those movie series that intentionally don't dwell on those kinds of details very much. I guess we have to find a way to live with that, as difficult as that might be for some of us.