Dont Ask for Burning Crusade. Ask for Balancing Classes.

[chiddie]

Yes - but making all classes playable doesn't require making all classes balanced.

An apple and a hammer aren't balanced - but jeez, they both have a solid use for existing.

Only when every class and spec is balanced you can really pick the one you like. But unless you make them all the same with the only difference in spell names and animation (fireball = shadow bolt, even in numbers), it’s very difficult to achieve balance when you have 8-10 classes and all of them have 3 specs.

It’s not nice to level an arcane mage (because you did not know it sucked) and find yourself forced to change into fire/frost at 60 because else noone would even invite you to UBRS.

Being this a issue or not for Vanilla lovers, it’s ok if people are concerned about which point in Vanilla history they will stick to.

[schwarzkopf]

Only when every class and spec is balanced you can really pick the one you like.

If every class and spec is balanced, then by definition - you have no choice.

It suddenly means my mage can tank, and my warlock can heal and my bear form can cast ranged spells and ... etc.

[Thimagryn]

Yes - but making all classes playable doesn't require making all classes balanced.

An apple and a hammer aren't balanced - but jeez, they both have a solid use for existing.

Making all classes balanced doesn't mean they are all the same either.

1.12 Pallies, Shamans, Druids and Priests were relatively balanced to each other, and every class had a very clear Healer role. Class sets gave buffs to healing, talent overhauls improved healing output on hybrids, and the gameplay was balanced around mana vs Spellrank efficiency.

1.0 Pallies, Shamans and Druids simply stood there providing buffs because their gear was unoptimized while Priests scaled way better and the meta told us Priests are the Healers of MC while everyone else just supports them. Anyone that wasn't a Priest would run out of mana quick, have shittier heals because of lack of itemization, or simply scale badly because gear shared non-Healer stats. If you ran MC as a Paladin or a Druid, you were literally a Buffadin/Innervatebot. You were brought for your class buffs and all your gear progression only helps you survive more since your Primary stats aren't focused on any particular role. What does a Healer do with Str and Agi? What does a Feral druid do with Int and Spirit in a raid? None of the heals were strong enough to make much of a difference in MC, and being able to decurse was probably the height of raid interaction.

[chiddie]

If every class and spec is balanced, then by definition - you have no choice.

It suddenly means my mage can tank, and my warlock can heal and my bear form can cast ranged spells and ... etc.

Balanced does not mean “everyone can do everything”, it means “if class x and y have a tank spec, they will both tank well. With different tools and in some situations one will perform slightly better, but you can be safe with both of them”.

And also means “if a class have 3 dps specs, the 3 of them will perform equally. There will be situations in which one will do slightly better but you can be safe in bringing a mage (for example) whatever the spec.”

This is balancing, no more no less.

[Xecks]

Balanced does not mean “everyone can do everything”, it means “if class x and y have a tank spec, they will both tank well. With different tools and in some situations one will perform slightly better, but you can be safe with both of them”.

And also means “if a class have 3 dps specs, the 3 of them will perform equally. There will be situations in which one will do slightly better but you can be safe in bringing a mage (for example) whatever the spec.”

This is balancing, no more no less.

blizzard has been shit balancing even specs within the same class. you trust them to balance vanilla and not make it a freaking mess?

[chiddie]

blizzard has been shit balancing even specs within the same class. you trust them to balance vanilla and not make it a freaking mess?

No.

I know they won’t because it would be Vanilla no more.

I was only saying that it’s normal people are concerned with balancing.

[Temis]

Yeah but no balance at all = play the best class, leave the worst behind. We may as well have a single class/spec.

No one wants to actively be the guy who's only being brought to buff someone else. Players back then did it because of bait-and-switch, no one actually knew how Raiding roles worked or that the design pigeonholed all classes towards one raid spec. For some classes, they had no role at all and only being brought for their raid buffs.

Uniqueness and balance are not mutually exclusive, because TBC was a pretty solid model for that without losing out on class uniqueness. Paladins were AoE tanks, Bears were Dodge tanks, and Warriors were still on top as the best everyman Tank. I'm not saying Vanilla needs to go that route, but Vanilla's uniqueness is not due to there being only one tank class in the game or having Druids and Paladins be unable to viably fill any other role than healing. Every class still brings something unique to the table beyond performing their role. Mages having CC doesn't have to factor in how well they perform in DPS compared to other classes, and the fact that they do more damage than a Warlock is a balance issue and not as simple as 'Mages unique role is doing more damage than any other Caster'.

You clearly dont understand Vanilla, you cant say that there is no one out there that doesnt like buffing and supporting their other raid members because I and many other people do. There is more to raiding then doing the most healing or most dps and I feel sorry that is clearly your only motivation. If you where more of a team player and more about working with other people to achieve a common goal you would get it. Everyone has a roll that they can play in a raid even if your paladin specced mainly in to prot or ret. Balance is not about all classes being able to do the same damage, healing or mitigating the most damage.

[Thimagryn]

You clearly dont understand Vanilla, you cant say that there is no one out there that doesnt like buffing and supporting their other raid members because I and many other people do. There is more to raiding then doing the most healing or most dps and I feel sorry that is clearly your only motivation. If you where more of a team player and more about working with other people to achieve a common goal you would get it. Everyone has a roll that they can play in a raid even if your paladin specced mainly in to prot or ret. Balance is not about all classes being able to do the same damage, healing or mitigating the most damage.

You can support other people and be a team player without having a gimped main-role like 1.0 Druids and Paladins were. Sorry that you think that's what Vanilla is all about, but that just happened to be how the game was designed back then. If you like that gameplay, more power to you, but I'm all for having more spec options for classes ala 1.12.

I know what Vanilla was because I was the innervate bot who didn't complain about their position in the raid because that's how the game was played back then. It's retrospect that shows how clearly wrong the original design was and how it's clearly possible to have unique classes, varied class balance AND multiple raid specs all within Vanilla. 1.12 shows this.

[Soon-TM]

You can support other people and be a team player without having a gimped main-role like 1.0 Druids and Paladins were. Sorry that you think that's what Vanilla is all about, but that just happened to be how the game was designed back then. If you like that gameplay, more power to you, but I'm all for having more spec options for classes ala 1.12.

I know what Vanilla was because I was the innervate bot who didn't complain about their position in the raid because that's how the game was played back then. It's retrospect that shows how clearly wrong the original design was and how it's clearly possible to have unique classes, varied class balance AND multiple raid specs all within Vanilla. 1.12 shows this.

It's wrong if all you or your guild care about are D(H)PS meters. A goalkeeper in soccer does not get to shine as often as the centre-forward, but he's necessary nonetheless; it's called teamwork. BTW, if you are so hellbent on topping DPS meters, roll a freaking DPS class, end of story. Druid is the "jack of all trades, master of no one" class, so don't expect to match a rogue DPS while retaining heals, brez and innervate (in 1.12).

[Thimagryn]

It's wrong if all you or your guild care about are D(H)PS meters. A goalkeeper in soccer does not get to shine as often as the centre-forward, but he's necessary nonetheless; it's called teamwork. BTW, if you are so hellbent on topping DPS meters, roll a freaking DPS class, end of story. Druid is the "jack of all trades, master of no one" class, so don't expect to match a rogue DPS while retaining heals, brez and innervate (in 1.12).

Druids and Paladins do not progress in tanking throughout early raids. How is that focussing on DPS meters?

If all you choose to read out of wanting balance is 'I want to top charts!' then stop replying to me, because you're projecting. Show me one time where I said Hybrids should top DPS. Honestly, show me one time where I say Hybrids should do as much damage as pures.

You are generalizing my arguments with other commenters and brining up issues that I don't even suggest. I don't even know why you're talking about druids hellbent on topping DPS.

Honestly do you even know which individual you are replying to?

[Soon-TM]

Druids and Paladins do not progress in tanking throughout early raids. How is that focussing on DPS meters?

If all you choose to read out of wanting balance is 'I want to top charts!' then stop replying to me, because you're projecting. Show me one time where I said Hybrids should top DPS. Honestly, show me one time where I say Hybrids should do as much damage as pures.

You are generalizing my arguments with other commenters and brining up issues that I don't even suggest. I don't even know why you're talking about druids hellbent on topping DPS.

Honestly do you even know which individual you are replying to?

You are a clever guy, I must grant that; you haven't said it openly, but you've been implying it. You want druids and paladins to be "viable" i.e. you want them to MT, since according to the "balance" gospel, warrior was the only "viable" tank, i.e. MT. You want druids and paladins to be "viable" DPS, i.e. you want them to complete with rogues and mages, since you know, they are the "viable" classes for DPS, since apparently "viable" is jargon for "topping DPS meters". So if I'm wrong, explain what "viable" means to you, as concisely as possible.

[Thimagryn]

You are a clever guy, I must grant that; you haven't said it openly, but you've been implying it. You want druids and paladins to be "viable" i.e. you want them to MT, since according to the "balance" gospel, warrior was the only "viable" tank, i.e. MT. You want druids and paladins to be "viable" DPS, i.e. you want them to complete with rogues and mages, since you know, they are the "viable" classes for DPS, since apparently "viable" is jargon for "topping DPS meters". So if I'm wrong, explain what "viable" means to you, as concisely as possible.

I'm implying 1.12 levels of Balance to be present within all of Vanilla. Agaim, how is that 'topping meters'?

When in 1.12 did Ferals and Ret overshadow Pures?

My point is 1.12 would solve many problems, but would also trivialize MC content without addressing balance. Balance should be addressed overall for the health of Vanilla, otherwise we are privy to the design bias of the early WoW designers which is well documented and well known.

How that equates to topping DPS charts is all on you.

Are you just triggered by anyone who uses the word 'balance'? Because I'm not interested in your strawman arguments.

[Dejablue]

Sorry, as excited as I am for Classic WoW, it sucked compared to BC>

Classic is only better than WoD and Cata.

Tthe best times in WoW were:

1. BC pre welfare epics
2. Wrath pre LFD
3. MoP
4. Legion (Legion is a pile of bugs, non game breaking but holy shit batman! it may actually be the best overall after we get distance and forget all of the constant constant constant minor bugs and annoyances)
5. Classic
6. EverQuest GoD
7. Eternally stuck in an alternate universe where ToC is the only raid
8. Cata
9. Something
10. Something else
11. WoD

BC was the best.

I have played since vanilla beta, have the vanilla CE, fell in love with vanilla, my all time fondest memory is leveling in my 20's through the blue forests of Ashenvale, but overall BC blew vanilla out of the water.
Welfare epics were the only major disappointment.
Timeless Isle of Quel'danas is the OG shit.
Karazhan is still the best raid ever made.

At the time the zone wide PVP of Hellfire, Zangarmarsh, Nagrand, and Terrokar was better than EPL towers or Silithus' Sandlol.

It launched with everything but BT, SW and the Isle.
It was a great combination of linear progression through attunements and traditional boss kill progress that also had diversity and change of scenery.
It was great to have T4 everywhere, Grull's, Mag's, Kara; you could tackle Kazzak and Doomwalker and move into SSC. Get to leo and start doing Lootreaver in TK as well.
It was very quickly a cornucopia of content.
It was not like current raids, "New raid is out, we didn't get the last two bosses of last raid, but abandon it completely, the gear is better off the first bosses of the new raid, let's beat our heads against this new raid, same scenes, same bosses, over and over again..."

[Soon-TM]

BC was the best.

I love BC as well, it was definitely the highest point of the game, imo clearly better than the oh-so praised WotLK. If it hadn't been for the LK story arc, that xpac would have been a complete snoozefest, except if you were a healer...

I'm implying 1.12 levels of Balance to be present within all of Vanilla. Agaim, how is that 'topping meters'?

When in 1.12 did Ferals and Ret overshadow Pures?

My point is 1.12 would solve many problems, but would also trivialize MC content without addressing balance. Balance should be addressed overall for the health of Vanilla, otherwise we are privy to the design bias of the early WoW designers which is well documented and well known.

How that equates to topping DPS charts is all on you.

Are you just triggered by anyone who uses the word 'balance'? Because I'm not interested in your strawman arguments.

But now you are backtracking. You stated on a previous post that the problem of kitties/rets was that they wouldn't be invited to any raid ever due to their bad damage or mitigation. So I must ask again, what does "viable" mean to you?

[Thimagryn]

But now you are backtracking. You stated on a previous post that the problem of kitties/rets was that they wouldn't be invited to any raid ever due to their bad damage or mitigation. So I must ask again, what does "viable" mean to you?

Er, where did I cite that as the reason that they need to be balanced? Are you misinterpretting my answers to 'why would anyone bring a rogue'?

I clearly explained to you I would give up all heals to do DPS and conversely I'd give up DPS to hybrid heal given you can heal in forms. My point has always been that the tax itself is doubled up because hybrids aren't designed to be played like hybrids in a holy trinity raiding system. The gear Druids obtain does not support any actual role in the first two tiers. Only Naxx anf AQ changed that trend.

Viable means 1.12/TBC levels of tanking, DPS and Healing for hybrids, but not necessaily taking on changes provided by TBC. Make Vanilla its own thing and keep a Vanilla experience. Want druid tanking to be different? Then they can be high armor soak tanks who take crushing blows but have a talent that prevents crushing-chains. Paladins can be a tauntless tank who uses their heals to cause high threat and boost armor but at 25% healing efficiency. Be creative but be 'Classic'. Why take a Warrior? Because they still do great DPS and their tanking is mana effecient for healers!

TBC did great on hybrid DPS design. 5% crit buff is noticeable, amd mangle was a feral specific debuff. Thats the type of design that works without artificially boosting everyone's dps to mage levels. Innervate and Battle Res should not be a reason to bring a Feral Tank instead of a Warrior when any other druid can bring that to the table. Remove innervate from Ferals and we are bringing specs for specs rather for class for their class buffs.

[Soon-TM]

Er, where did I cite that as the reason that they need to be balanced? Are you misinterpretting my answers to 'why would anyone bring a rogue'?

I clearly explained to you I would give up all heals to do DPS and conversely I'd give up DPS to hybrid heal given you can heal in forms. My point has always been that the tax itself is doubled up because hybrids aren't designed to be played like hybrids in a holy trinity raiding system. The gear Druids obtain does not support any actual role in the first two tiers. Only Naxx anf AQ changed that trend.

That would break Vanilla gameplay into a quadrillion pieces. As a matter of fact, it would no longer be Vanilla, or even close to Vanilla. Imagine a kitty self healing in PvP while being immune to roots, slows, mana burn and polymorph. And without CDs. Not even 3.0 rets were that broken.

Conversely, imagine a kitty doing rogue-tier damage in PvE. Rogues would simply disappear, since whatever little utility they had in Vanilla cannot possibly compete with brez + innervate (we're talking 1.12 here, right?). It is simply not "viable".

[Thimagryn]

That would break Vanilla gameplay into a quadrillion pieces. As a matter of fact, it would no longer be Vanilla, or even close to Vanilla. Imagine a kitty self healing in PvP while being immune to roots, slows, mana burn and polymorph. And without CDs. Not even 3.0 rets were that broken.

Conversely, imagine a kitty doing rogue-tier damage in PvE. Rogues would simply disappear, since whatever little utility they had in Vanilla cannot possibly compete with brez + innervate (we're talking 1.12 here, right?). It is simply not "viable".

I don't even know what you're going on about considering I constantly give TBC as the level of stat balance we would aim for while you're coming up with some other level of bullshit op balance that never existed.

If ferals got 5% crit buff in 1.12 and were able to hit cap effectively, how does that suddenly make Rogues unplayable? I nwver said Ferals should do rogue dps.

Did tbc make rogues unplayable?

[VyersReaver]

The best expansion was The Dark Below. So ask for that.

I thought it was Old World Blues, no?

[Soon-TM]

I don't even know what you're going on about considering I constantly give TBC as the level of stat balance we would aim for while you're coming up with some other level of bullshit op balance that never existed.

If ferals got 5% crit buff in 1.12 and were able to hit cap effectively, how does that suddenly make Rogues unplayable? I nwver said Ferals should do rogue dps.

Here you go.

Er, where did I cite that as the reason that they need to be balanced? Are you misinterpretting my answers to 'why would anyone bring a rogue'?

I clearly explained to you I would give up all heals to do DPS and conversely[/B][/B] I'd give up DPS to hybrid heal given you can heal in forms. My point has always been that the tax itself is doubled up because hybrids aren't designed to be played like hybrids in a holy trinity raiding system. The gear Druids obtain does not support any actual role in the first two tiers. Only Naxx anf AQ changed that trend.

Viable means 1.12/TBC levels of tanking, DPS and Healing for hybrids, but not necessaily taking on changes provided by TBC. Make Vanilla its own thing and keep a Vanilla experience. Want druid tanking to be different? Then they can be high armor soak tanks who take crushing blows but have a talent that prevents crushing-chains. Paladins can be a tauntless tank who uses their heals to cause high threat and boost armor but at 25% healing efficiency. Be creative but be 'Classic'. Why take a Warrior? Because they still do great DPS and their tanking is mana effecient for healers!

TBC did great on hybrid DPS design. 5% crit buff is noticeable, amd mangle was a feral specific debuff. Thats the type of design that works without artificially boosting everyone's dps to mage levels. Innervate and Battle Res should not be a reason to bring a Feral Tank instead of a Warrior when any other druid can bring that to the table. Remove innervate from Ferals and we are bringing specs for specs rather for class for their class buffs.

Don't tell me you'd give up your heals to do mediocre damage...

[munkeyinorbit]

Sorry bud but I played Vanilla from day 1 launch until Cataclysm and stopped there cause it was trash ever since. Raided all the way up to Naxx and PvP'd up to rank 11 or 12 in vanilla and always up to 2200 when it was switched to arenas from BC on.

Your OP proves that you didn't achieve any of these. Stop trying to "fix" vanilla. If you do not like it, there are plenty of BC servers for you to have a go at.