[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Endus]

Did you... even read what I wrote? The only time I mentioned the EU was specifically to say I was ignoring it for the purposes of the post I made. Even using literally just what we see on-screen in the movies and in the Rebels cartoon, Snoke doesn't fit into the Star Wars universe. That's my point. The movies don't have room for some obnoxiously powerful Dark Side user to appear out of thin air. That is why the character demands an explanation. Here, I'll spell it out for you so it's obvious:


WHERE THE FUCK WAS SNOKE WHEN PALPATINE WAS EMPEROR, AND WHY DID PALPATINE IGNORE HIM WHEN LITERALLY EVERY OTHER FORCE USER WAS ON HIS HIT LIST? WHY DID LUKE IGNORE HIM?

With what we know happens in the Star Wars universe, using only the movies and current TV show as reference, Snoke's entire existence is highly implausible at best. What he is - a powerful Dark Side master - is not unusual. It's WHEN he is that's the problem, especially with what we know JUST from Episodes VII and VIII. Snoke's mere existence makes Luke Skywalker look like a complete idiot. Luke flat-out tells Rey in TLJ that he knew about Snoke. He KNEW a manipulative and powerful Dark Side Force user was out and about and he established another Jedi school, full of pupils RIPE for seduction to the Dark Side anyway. Herp. Fucking. Derp. Luke.

This is why Snoke requires an explanation. Because a whole lot of very important characters in one movie or another completely ignored him. He literally appears out of nowhere and it makes no sense.

This is pretty much all wrong.

1> Palpatine did not have a "hit list" of other Force users. Ben Kenobi and Yoda were out and about, and there is zero indication there was anyone looking for them. If he knew they were around, he probably would have been hunting them down. Besides this, Luke and Leia were born, and had significant Force potential, and neither Palpatine nor Vader had any clue they even existed. And Vader kinda wanted to know.

2> None of the Jedi could tell that Palpatine was a Force user at all, let alone a Sith master. And it's not like they didn't meet him on the regular.

3> Nobody figured out Dooku had gone Dark Side either, for years. When he was an active Jedi.

You're making up rules the original trilogy and prequels flat out refute. Force users don't sense each other, or at least it's fairly trivial to conceal your Force potential. They can detect force potential in untrained kids, but that's likely because they can feel the Force being manipulated (why else would they need to test Anakin's blood in Phantom Menace?).

What we do know that Force users can sense is significant events like mass deaths. Luke may have felt the stirrings in the Force of a powerful Dark Side user actually USING their power, but that's all he knew. That there was someone, somewhere out there. And yes; Luke fucked up with his school. That's the point. He was arrogant and did not have a handle on his own Dark Side leanings. He is the one who put his students at risk. He knew that. That's why he sent himself into exile.

[Jshadowhunter]

Poe is so competent that he is the reason the Resistance wasn't able to jump lose the First Order in the first place. The Resistance was fleeing its last base, they had room a window of opportunity to jump away...but nope, Poe wants to down a dreadnaught so he gets the remaining Resistance squadrons caught up in a skirmish that they did not need to fight, couldn't afford to fight, would be their last major fight.

And then (LOL)...and then...Poe's bright idea is to send a mechanic and turncoat half way across the galaxy to find some hacker, a hacker (genius move, Poe) who is partying with FO arms dealers. When he does hear about the real plan, the genius still nearly compromises the mission...meanwhile his brilliant plan is falling about.

All Poe had to do was follow orders and a lot more people would've made it out alive. Nope, he has to play Captain Save-the-day. Smart.

If Poe hadn't destroyed the dreadnaught when he did, it would've just lightspeed jumped after them with the rest of the fleet and during the slow chase could've easily vaporised them.
THat being said, why didn't Poe just use Y-wings as well as X-wing escort to bomb the dreadnaught and instead use the slowass-easily damagable bombers?

And he doesn't have a reason to trust a condenscending ashole of an admiral, who looks nothing like a military leader and more like a tumblrite politician, atleast Leia looked the part.
And why was she hiding from him anyway? What was at stake? If she had just told him the plan, Poe would've easily gone along with her and side plot would've never been initiated.
It was just a retarded way for the writer to create fake conflict by making people act like idiots and that's throughout the entire movie.

[RobertoCarlos]

If Poe hadn't destroyed the dreadnaught when he did, it would've just lightspeed jumped after them with the rest of the fleet and during the slow chase could've easily vaporised them.
THat being said, why didn't Poe just use Y-wings as well as X-wing escort to bomb the dreadnaught and instead use the slowass-easily damagable bombers?

And he doesn't have a reason to trust a condenscending ashole of an admiral, who looks nothing like a military leader and more like a tumblrite politician, atleast Leia looked the part.
And why was she hiding from him anyway? What was at stake? If she had just told him the plan, Poe would've easily gone along with her and side plot would've never been initiated.
It was just a retarded way for the writer to create fake conflict by making people act like idiots and that's throughout the entire movie.

I agree with everything you said, but I feel like a lot of this can be forgiven on the first viewing, and the resistance being completely incompetent isnt much of a stretch for star wars. Its on multiple viewings that those faults will start to mount up. Otherwise when you look at poe through the lens of han solo action sequence man its not so bad

[Endus]

If Poe hadn't destroyed the dreadnaught when he did, it would've just lightspeed jumped after them with the rest of the fleet and during the slow chase could've easily vaporised them.

Dreadnaughts are siege ships. They're not as fast as cruisers. It wouldn't have been able to chase them down for the same reasons the rest of the fleet couldn't. It was a threat to the cruiser before it got out of range. That's always how it works in Star Wars; the bigger ships with the bigger guns are slower.

THat being said, why didn't Poe just use Y-wings as well as X-wing escort to bomb the dreadnaught and instead use the slowass-easily damagable bombers?

You're assuming they had a Y-wing bomber squadron available, or that they could carry enough bombs to do the job, neither of which would seem to be true.

Also, Poe's just a Wing Commander at this point. He doesn't pick his squadron. He gets given a wing to command.

And he doesn't have a reason to trust a condenscending ashole of an admiral, who looks nothing like a military leader and more like a tumblrite politician, atleast Leia looked the part.

Ignoring the stupid nonsense about how she looked, his reason for trusting her is called "the chain of command". She didn't just trip and fall into a Vice Admiralty.

And why was she hiding from him anyway? What was at stake? If she had just told him the plan, Poe would've easily gone along with her and side plot would've never been initiated.

Poe's not a command officer. Why should he get told the plan at all? What business did he have knowing the incredibly sensitive secret plan?

And hell, when he DID find out, he leaked it to the First Order. That right there. That's why. The movie shows you this, and it's not even theory, it's what actually happened.

[PACOX]

If Poe hadn't destroyed the dreadnaught when he did, it would've just lightspeed jumped after them with the rest of the fleet and during the slow chase could've easily vaporised them.
THat being said, why didn't Poe just use Y-wings as well as X-wing escort to bomb the dreadnaught and instead use the slowass-easily damagable bombers?

And he doesn't have a reason to trust a condenscending ashole of an admiral, who looks nothing like a military leader and more like a tumblrite politician, atleast Leia looked the part.
And why was she hiding from him anyway? What was at stake? If she had just told him the plan, Poe would've easily gone along with her and side plot would've never been initiated.
It was just a retarded way for the writer to create fake conflict by making people act like idiots and that's throughout the entire movie.

The dreadnaught not is a shit at ship-to-ship combat. Its only going to hit slow nonmoving targets, so none of the Resistance ships. Poe called in the attack on the dreadnaught to say he killed one, thats all. Like trying to get rid of a hornets nest with a can of raid even though the nest isnt an immediate threat to anybody. They didn't tell Poe anything because he had just recklessly gotten a bunch of people killed, the Resistance had more people he would've been in the brig.

Did Poe listen when he found out the transports were being fueled up?

I like Poe, I like him enough to say accept that he was reckless idiot in TFA and most of TLJ. Holdon was imperfect as well but at no point was anyone obligated to tell Poe anything, nor should they have considering his stunt.

[Ragedaug]

The big point I'm trying to make is that Star Wars - as much as you might want it to be clever and meticulously planned - is a lot stupider than you think. The writers don't care about Wookiepedia's consistency or anything, because in Star Wars they mostly just write stories that deal with broad strokes and lofty ideals presented alongside bombastic music.
Who Snoke is, in the grand scheme of STAR WARS™ LORE, doesn't actually matter, in a narrative sense - because the narrative doesn't revolve around him and it never actually pretended to care about explaining logistical details like that (outside of the Prequels and the EU, that is. But those were also stupid.). What matters is who Snoke is to Kylo Ren. What is their relationship? What does Snoke represent in this vague, lofty feelings-based narrative?
A bad dude.
The final boss.
Kylo beat up the bad dude and became the final boss now.

That's literally it.
I'm pretty sure that's all they wrote in the script, too. For efficiency's sake.

The original trilogy never bothered to sit down and explain how Leia, despite being one of the chosen Jesus twins, had a great relationship with Obi-Wan Kenobi whereas Luke didn't. Why would Obi-Wan keep Luke in the dark for so many years, but not Leia? What?
EEHHH DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT LUKE IS TOO BUSY FIGHTING THE BAD DUDES PEW PEW BSSHHHH SHWOOP BANG

excuse me why didn't the movie stop for thirty seconds to explain this factoid
why didn't the twins just train with Yoda on Dagobah from birth or whatever

Because who cares. That's why.

I'm not saying the story in a Star Wars movie doesn't have to make sense in and of itself. Of course not. There should always be a sense of internal logic, for sure. But with Star Wars, whenever it comes down to "Feelings of the Moment" vs. "Wookiepedia's Accuracy Rating", the feelsy feels always win, and the details that do fall to the wayside usually do so for a good reason.

Edit:
Just to be clear, I don't want to come off as if liking the silly EU lore and occasionally browsing Wookiepedia for fun is somehow a universally bad thing and that anyone who does that should feel bad, or anything. It's fine! You do you!
But

uhh

You should probably know that the big dumb Disney movies probably aren't going to cater to that strand of the fanbase. And that's fine too.

This is the reason there is a divide. I'm not saying you are wrong to feel how you do, I just wish you would stop trying to say I'm wrong for how I choose to enjoy Star Wars. You like it because it's a popcorn flick you don't have to think about. I like it because I'm invested in the universe that was created by the popularity of Star Wars. Neither of us is wrong, we just have different reasons we like it.

The difference between a Star Wars movie and a Marvel movie is a Billion $$. At least before Last Jedi. I doubt Last Jedi will reach Age of Ultron numbers, and the merchandising is going to be way down. It's not the popcorn flick fans who buy the lion's share of the memorabilia, it's the wookipedia / SW Universe fans who tend to be the bigger buyers. So with that half of the SW fandom feeling less enthused about the movie, sales are going to be down.

As someone who works for a company who makes many billions in net profit every year, I can also tell you that no amount of billions are enough if they are less than the billions they expected to make. We can make more billions than ever before but be told we still had a bad year because they projected we would make 1 or 2 more more-billions than we did.

So considering that, what will be interesting is if Disney doubles down and says, "screw max profit, we made enough billions, lets keep out focus on spreading our political agenda". Personally I have a feeling JJ would prefer to undo most of what Rian undid from JJs movie. That'll take some creative writing, but could be interesting. I'll wait to see how Ep. 9 looks when it comes out in streaming. Don't see myself putting myself the theater experience for it after Ep. 8.

- - - Updated - - -

Dreadnaughts are siege ships. They're not as fast as cruisers. It wouldn't have been able to chase them down for the same reasons the rest of the fleet couldn't. It was a threat to the cruiser before it got out of range. That's always how it works in Star Wars; the bigger ships with the bigger guns are slower.

The Dreadnaught was turning it's orbital guns on the Resistance main cruiser...the one will all the admirals on it. If Poe doesn't take it down, the Cruiser is gone, and likely the two medical frigates as well. The same way the Death Star super laser was taking out capitol ships in Ep 6. It's not designed for smaller targets or space ships necessarily, but when you are talking about a capital ship, they don't have the capability to out-maneuver it, and the gun can be pointed at them.

"...as it was re-targeting the command ship Raddus, it was destroyed by an attack run by Cobalt Squadron's MG-100 StarFortress SF-17s"

So if Poe doesn't do what he did, Leia's not around to slap him or superman her way around space.

Poe's not a command officer. Why should he get told the plan at all? What business did he have knowing the incredibly sensitive secret plan?

Even demoted, Poe's still the ranking battlefield officer. The whole, "you saved all of us in the only way possible, but because it was not the way we would have liked it done, we are mad at you and are keeping secrets" made no sense at all.

For the love of Pete, she would have at least tried to reason with him when she saw he was going to mutiny. Even if it was an angry, "listen you dumb ...!!! We've got a plan to save everyone!! stop acting like an idiot!!" - - but nope...just stand there looking dumb, and definitely don't tell Poe, who is taking over the ship, with his notcommandofficerness, that you have a plan.

And hell, when he DID find out, he leaked it to the First Order. That right there. That's why. The movie shows you this, and it's not even theory, it's what actually happened.

You're going to have to help me with this one. Poe didn't find out the plan until he woke up on the transport...so when did he leak the plan to the First Order?

[RobertoCarlos]

why is the last jedi so divisive? I thought it was quite a faithful star wars film with clear passion from rian johnson. Sure it had flaws but they all do

[Ragedaug]

why is the last jedi so divisive? I thought it was quite a faithful star wars film with clear passion from rian johnson. Sure it had flaws but they all do

Because half the people who saw it thought it was a faithful star wars film with a clear passion from Rian Johnson, and the other half thought is was not a faithful star wars film, and believe the passion from Rian Johnson was focused on social justice rather than a passion for making a good and faithful star wars movie.

For me it had a couple messages. One for the fans and one for JJ.

To the fans: "Screw your expectations"
To JJ: "Screw your star wars movie"

Anyway, my irrelevant opinion aside, that's why there's a divide. There's no universal consensus on how the movie did. People tended to either really like it or absolutely hate it. Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of middle ground for TLJ.

[Ragedaug]

Your 50/50 split ignores the mass of people who like the star wars films, but wouldn't really be considered "fans". There are more of them, and from all the exit polling at theaters it was really well received.

That doesn't surprise me that movie goers, who are just there to watch a movie, but are not SW fans, would give a good review.

Considering the critics overwhelmingly love it, it makes sense if you believe they aren't being paid by Disney, that non-Star-Wars viewers seemed to like it.

[Elim Garak]

You're going to have to help me with this one. Poe didn't find out the plan until he woke up on the transport...so when did he leak the plan to the First Order?

Wot?

Poe started the mutiny when he learnt about the plan (he found out that Holdo is diverting the cruiser's fuel to fill up the transports). Then he leaked the plan to First Order by speaking to Finn who let the hacker overhear them, then he was incapacitated and then he woke up on the transport.

[tyrlaan]

Because half the people who saw it thought it was a faithful star wars film with a clear passion from Rian Johnson, and the other half thought is was not a faithful star wars film, and believe the passion from Rian Johnson was focused on social justice rather than a passion for making a good and faithful star wars movie.

For me it had a couple messages. One for the fans and one for JJ.

To the fans: "Screw your expectations"
To JJ: "Screw your star wars movie"

Anyway, my irrelevant opinion aside, that's why there's a divide. There's no universal consensus on how the movie did. People tended to either really like it or absolutely hate it. Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of middle ground for TLJ.

I do think TLJ would have been a dramatically different film if JJ did it, so I think I agree with your second message to at least some degree. I would point out that JJ has a penchant for just dropping puzzles into things and then doing nothing with them, so there's a high probability TLJ would be a disappointment for anyone looking for answers to the things JJ left hanging in TFA. On the other hand, I don't think he left as many things hanging as we, the fanbase manufactured as extra questions/puzzles.

I will quibble with the message to the fans because I don't at all think the intent was to slight fans. I think the intent of this movie was to give the franchise a sort of soft reset and/or paradigm shift, ultimately with the intent to let Disney milk SW forever with movie after movie. And based on how much EU crap people lapped up, I'm going to assume this will work out just fine

[Jshadowhunter]

Dreadnaughts are siege ships. They're not as fast as cruisers. It wouldn't have been able to chase them down for the same reasons the rest of the fleet couldn't. It was a threat to the cruiser before it got out of range. That's always how it works in Star Wars; the bigger ships with the bigger guns are slower.


You're assuming they had a Y-wing bomber squadron available, or that they could carry enough bombs to do the job, neither of which would seem to be true.

Also, Poe's just a Wing Commander at this point. He doesn't pick his squadron. He gets given a wing to command.


Ignoring the stupid nonsense about how she looked, his reason for trusting her is called "the chain of command". She didn't just trip and fall into a Vice Admiralty.



Poe's not a command officer. Why should he get told the plan at all? What business did he have knowing the incredibly sensitive secret plan?

And hell, when he DID find out, he leaked it to the First Order. That right there. That's why. The movie shows you this, and it's not even theory, it's what actually happened.

The dreadnaught not is a shit at ship-to-ship combat. Its only going to hit slow nonmoving targets, so none of the Resistance ships. Poe called in the attack on the dreadnaught to say he killed one, thats all. Like trying to get rid of a hornets nest with a can of raid even though the nest isnt an immediate threat to anybody. They didn't tell Poe anything because he had just recklessly gotten a bunch of people killed, the Resistance had more people he would've been in the brig.

Did Poe listen when he found out the transports were being fueled up?

I like Poe, I like him enough to say accept that he was reckless idiot in TFA and most of TLJ. Holdon was imperfect as well but at no point was anyone obligated to tell Poe anything, nor should they have considering his stunt.

The Dreadnaught is smaller than Snoke's ship yet it can keep up with the rest of the star destroyers and chasing down resistance at the same speed, so "it's too big so it moves slowly" is an absolute BS excuse.
And considering how slow they were moving all that time, the dreadnaught wouldn't have any difficulty shooting at them. It can shoot stuff from orbit and if wouldn't able to hit targets that are closer than that? I don't believe it.

And even if they didn't have Y-wings, if only ONE bomber is enough to destroy the juggernaught, why didn't Poe just get his crew into X-wings, strapped bombs on to them and do a quick bombing run? It would've been even easier since Fist Odor are a bunch of idiots who didn't send out TIE squad the moment Poe started making the retarded YO MAMA joke.
Because if they knew only one was enough, they must've known that they were going into suicide at that point.
And why didn't Leia call them off? Only Poe silenced her, not the whole squad.

Also, since all of the commanders got blown out into space (thanks for uncerimoniously killing Ackbar, Rian, you little shit), except for Leia who poppins (pun completely intended), Poe is basically 2nd-in-command after Holdo. Which makes her witholding information from him even more condenscending.
Funny enough, when the cat got out of the bag and Poe found out what's happening, it could've all beem avoided, Holdo could've just told him "they're cloaked so they won't see us and we're evacuating all". BUT NOOOOO. She had to be an emotional ass and not telling anything, eventhough she should've been smart enough to know that Poe would be able to create a mutiny, given the impression the scene was given. Holdo's still responsible for all the faq ups.

[Endus]

The difference between a Star Wars movie and a Marvel movie is a Billion $$. At least before Last Jedi. I doubt Last Jedi will reach Age of Ultron numbers, and the merchandising is going to be way down.

What's driven merchandising is largely toy sales, for Star Wars, not merch for superfans.

As for the numbers;
Worldwide revenue for Age of Ultron: $1,405,403,694
Worldwide revenue for The Last Jedi: $1,311,887,624

Not QUITE there, but also still in theaters. Age of Ultron was in theaters for 23 weeks, The Last Jedi only 6 since release. TLJ also had a bigger opening weekend, for what that's worth.

The Dreadnaught was turning it's orbital guns on the Resistance main cruiser...the one will all the admirals on it. If Poe doesn't take it down, the Cruiser is gone, and likely the two medical frigates as well. The same way the Death Star super laser was taking out capitol ships in Ep 6. It's not designed for smaller targets or space ships necessarily, but when you are talking about a capital ship, they don't have the capability to out-maneuver it, and the gun can be pointed at them.

"...as it was re-targeting the command ship Raddus, it was destroyed by an attack run by Cobalt Squadron's MG-100 StarFortress SF-17s"

So if Poe doesn't do what he did, Leia's not around to slap him or superman her way around space.

That's a guess, and not one that makes much sense given the plot of the film. They started to target the cruiser, but those are capital cannons meant for siege attacks on planets. They're powerful, but they're not great for chases. Leia called Poe and his squadron back because they were going to run, because that was still an option; it wasn't a "kill the dreadnaught or we all die" moment. If it were, then the sacrifice would've been necessary and Leia would neither have ordered Poe back, nor would she have demoted him for saving the fleet. So clearly, they weren't about to all get killed by the dreadnaught; it was targeting them to make them shove off.

Even demoted, Poe's still the ranking battlefield officer.

That's flat out not true. He's a Captain. That's not a high rank, at all. On par with most pilots.

For the love of Pete, she would have at least tried to reason with him when she saw he was going to mutiny. Even if it was an angry, "listen you dumb ...!!! We've got a plan to save everyone!! stop acting like an idiot!!" - - but nope...just stand there looking dumb, and definitely don't tell Poe, who is taking over the ship, with his notcommandofficerness, that you have a plan.

You seriously need to watch the movie. Because she tells Poe the plan. And then he mutinies.

What you're suggesting is what actually happened.

You're going to have to help me with this one. Poe didn't find out the plan until he woke up on the transport...so when did he leak the plan to the First Order?

Watch. The. Movie.

Rose and Finn and BB-8 get sent to find a codebreaker, while Poe stays behind to try and get the fleet ready on his end.
Poe finds out Holdo's plan, and says "nah" and mutinies.
Rose and Finn get out with the codebreaker (DJ). Poe tells them Holdo's plan over open comms, while DJ's in the room. DJ overhears.
Rose and Finn get onto the First Order capital ship with DJ, DJ leads them along and then betrays them, not just leading to their capture but ALSO telling Hux about Holdo's plan, which he imagines will now get used since this plan is shot to hell.

That's why Hux knows about the cloak. They specifically state this overtly, in the film. You've got things turned around in your head and you're forgetting critical scenes even exist.

- - - Updated - - -

The Dreadnaught is smaller than Snoke's ship yet it can keep up with the rest of the star destroyers and chasing down resistance at the same speed, so "it's too big so it moves slowly" is an absolute BS excuse.

Star Destroyers aren't fast, either. Cruisers can outrun them.

And considering how slow they were moving all that time, the dreadnaught wouldn't have any difficulty shooting at them. It can shoot stuff from orbit and if wouldn't able to hit targets that are closer than that? I don't believe it.

Siege cannons aren't much good at targeting mobile, agile targets. Big, powerful, but slow to track.

And even if they didn't have Y-wings, if only ONE bomber is enough to destroy the juggernaught, why didn't Poe just get his crew into X-wings, strapped bombs on to them and do a quick bombing run? It would've been even easier since Fist Odor are a bunch of idiots who didn't send out TIE squad the moment Poe started making the retarded YO MAMA joke.

X-wings aren't bombers, and can't carry nearly enough munitions if you jury-rig it.

"Why don't the fighters just magically be bombers" isn't an argument, at all.

Because if they knew only one was enough, they must've known that they were going into suicide at that point.
And why didn't Leia call them off? Only Poe silenced her, not the whole squad.

You really don't get chain of command, do you?

Poe is basically 2nd-in-command after Holdo.

No, this is flat-out wrong. He's a Captain. That's the second-lowest rank. Right above a wet-behind-the-ears Lieutenant.

Funny enough, when the cat got out of the bag and Poe found out what's happening, it could've all beem avoided, Holdo could've just told him "they're cloaked so they won't see us and we're evacuating all". BUT NOOOOO. She had to be an emotional ass and not telling anything, eventhough she knows fully well that Poe would be able to create a mutiny, given the impression the scene was given. Holdo's still responsible for all the faq ups.

This is flat-out wrong. She does yell Poe that. And then he mutinies. And then tells Finn and Rose that the transports are cloaked. Which is how Hux learns that.

Watch the damn film, because you're complaining about stuff the film explicitly covers.

[Jshadowhunter]

Star Destroyers aren't fast, either. Cruisers can outrun them.

Siege cannons aren't much good at targeting mobile, agile targets. Big, powerful, but slow to track.


X-wings aren't bombers, and can't carry nearly enough munitions if you jury-rig it.

"Why don't the fighters just magically be bombers" isn't an argument, at all.


You really don't get chain of command, do you?


No, this is flat-out wrong. He's a Captain. That's the second-lowest rank. Right above a wet-behind-the-ears Lieutenant.


This is flat-out wrong. She does yell Poe that. And then he mutinies. And then tells Finn and Rose that the transports are cloaked. Which is how Hux learns that.

Watch the damn film, because you're complaining about stuff the film explicitly covers.

Then you argument for juggernaught it non-existent and I'm right, because resistence can't evade them anyway, except move forward.

Also, what about chain of command?

And no, no she doesn't yell at him that ships are cloaked. When the truth comes out what she's doing Poe chewed her out and then ordered him to leave and when Poe told her what he did she just chewed him out before Poe pull a gun on her. At no point did she give him an explenation. Leia did that abord the transport. Don't lie to me.

[zEmini]

Literally the whole point of this movie was to say "SW isn't just about Good vs. Bad any more." They went further to say "Legends are bad." Hell, Kylo is so obsessed with Luke because of his legendary status. He was a flawless Jesus figure, and when Luke has his "moment of doubt and pain," it's too much for Kylo, he snaps, and is driven straight to the Dark Side, whose seeds were already planted in him because every Force user has both the Light and the Dark in them, which is literally the lesson Luke is trying to teach Rey. And why Rey is so naive - because she believes she can "turn" Kylo from bad to good, as if it is such a dichotomy. If Kylo was able to look at Luke as a human being, flawed and subject to making mistakes, and could understand that, instead of deifying him as some sort of legend, perhaps the whole thing could have been avoided.

It's fine to not like those choices. But that doesn't make it bad writing or bad characters or bad storytelling. All of those things were brilliant in this movie, except for the Canto Bight sequence. I've said since opening week that this is a very good movie - but if you expect it to "fit" into a genre of space opera that has traditionally been SW, then no, it's not a good Star Wars movie. Rian Johnson is trying to literally change what Star Wars is - not just in terms of the Force and the dichotomy between Jedi and Sith - but in terms of genre.

That's why I'm excited for Rian's attempt at a trilogy of his own.

I was referring to Snokes as a useless character not the "Good vs Evil" subplot. But there are plenty of other parts in the movie that is just awful. I really need to see it again to make my final judgement but from memory, this movie is by far the worst of the new Disney movies thanks to the bad plot devices and story telling.

[eschatological]

Every time someone cries "Disney!" I know they're not making a serious argument, because Disney puts out all sorts of movies.

[Endus]

Every time someone cries "Disney!" I know they're not making a serious argument, because Disney puts out all sorts of movies.

For instance, a lot of Quentin Tarantino's films were distributed by Miramax, which was owned by Disney at the time.

Saying "Disney" and expecting it to be cutesified for kids is ridiculous. Particularly with Star Wars. Which came pre-cutesified. Star Wars has, from the beginning, been pushing toys to kids in a huge way.

It isn't Disney making it kid-safe and toy-friendly. That was Lucas' own idea, starting way back with Star Wars, before it was retitled as A New Hope.

[Babadoo]

Poe is so competent that he is the reason the Resistance wasn't able to jump lose the First Order in the first place. The Resistance was fleeing its last base, they had room a window of opportunity to jump away...but nope, Poe wants to down a dreadnaught so he gets the remaining Resistance squadrons caught up in a skirmish that they did not need to fight, couldn't afford to fight, would be their last major fight.

And then (LOL)...and then...Poe's bright idea is to send a mechanic and turncoat half way across the galaxy to find some hacker, a hacker (genius move, Poe) who is partying with FO arms dealers. When he does hear about the real plan, the genius still nearly compromises the mission...meanwhile his brilliant plan is falling about.

All Poe had to do was follow orders and a lot more people would've made it out alive. Nope, he has to play Captain Save-the-day. Smart.

- - - Updated - - -



Thats because the prequels went from a mountain of shit, to a pile of shit, to a wet fart. So yes, technically they did get better with each passing movie.

That is true. If only Lucas didn't direct those movies he would've struck gold. The story was very solid (compared to the horribly story writing of episode 7 and 8). I remember I was super excited in 2005 about ROTS (I even though I was teenager) I knew two previous movies sucked but still was anticipating the 3rd one.

I again had same excitment waiting for episode 7. But when it came to episode 8 I just lost most of my hope. And now I don't even care if episode 9 comes, this will be the first SW movie that I will not go to see in the cinema (and I am the guy who managed to survive all 3 hobbit movies in cinema).

[Deleted]

Every time someone cries "Disney!" I know they're not making a serious argument, because Disney puts out all sorts of movies.

Yeah, about 3 formulaic superhero comedies a year, a live action remake a year, and more formulaic SW filled with comedy a year.

[Magicalcrab]

So considering that, what will be interesting is if Disney doubles down and says, "screw max profit, we made enough billions, lets keep out focus on spreading our political agenda". Personally I have a feeling JJ would prefer to undo most of what Rian undid from JJs movie. That'll take some creative writing, but could be interesting. I'll wait to see how Ep. 9 looks when it comes out in streaming. Don't see myself putting myself the theater experience for it after Ep. 8.

This is another topic I don't really understand.
Can anyone pinpoint what the political agenda of these new Star Wars movies is all about? Is it just that their cast is diverse so as to appeal to as many groups of people as possible, and that one movie features a lady with purple hair?
Because that's probably the least political that Star Wars has ever been since the prequels.

The prequels were a REALLY thin allegory for the post-9/11 climate of American politics, when the restrictions on the president's executive powers were loosened. It's very clearly an inherently political set of films. Their message was left-wing, so critical of a government that - according to George - was spiraling out of control that he included almost literal quotes from W. Bush in the scripts.

"If you're not with me, then you're my enemy."
"My resolve has never been stronger."

And let's not forget "This is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause."

In the era of the PATRIOT Act being passed, executive powers being expanded, and ongoing protests against the Iraq war, the prequels were obviously pushing a political agenda.


but i guess a girl has purple hair tho so that's bad

As a European Crustacean, am I just missing something huge? What's the agenda that Disney is allegedly pushing, and how is it more overtly political than what the prequels were doing?

And before anyone jumps in to tell me the prequels handled their politics with subtlety, grace, and clever theming, or that the story was expertly written, let's take a moment to remember this moment of clairvoyant writing from Lucas:



So with that out of the way, if anyone still wants to explain the genius of the prequels and their politics, or how it was Snoke's abrupt death in Episode 8 that made them lose faith in Star Wars, I offer now as the time to do so.