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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Gotmor View Post
    For fury the dependency on BC is seen clearly in Mythic+ when you have absolutely 0 damage without burst.
    I think this is the core of the question or point that the OP is also on about. Mythic+ trash without BC
    It "feels" like when you can't pop BC on a trash pack in mythic+ because of given examples, you aren't contributing much dps to that trashpack. Specifically if you aren't playing IR. (you are mostly just using BT and FS trying to fill up your rage bar, hope your BT crits sooner or later).
    Perhaps in that given situation fury looks poor.

    Just look at overall damage done at the end of a mythic+. it should be up there with the rest if not above
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    That's the dumbest thing I've heard today (don't worry, it's early).

    Your Pepe example is nonsensical precisely because it doesn't buff damage (unless the question was, "how much damage is done while Pepe is applied?").
    The Pepe example is nonsensical - exactly as your measurement of the strength of the buffs.

    The idea was to show that if a buff with 90% uptime that only increases dps by 0.1% or even 0% is rated above other buffs there is something wrong with how you rate the buffs. The idea shouldn't be to rate how much damage you do with the buff active, but how much MORE damage you do with the buff - and that's what I gave a formula for.

    I tried to use the better estimate and looked at the top-rated fights I could find; I have no idea what frost mage or havoc dh you used.
    Both of them also seem odd, e.g. the top-rating havoc dh's have about 63% uptime on meta - and you showed them as doing 62% of their damage during meta, so actually less damage! (I assume they use it for soaking etc.)

    But for the others we have - with the rating of (d/(D-d))*(100-x)/x, where d is total damage with buff, D total damage, and x% is uptime of buff.

    3.33 Battle cry, Fury Warrior devilsa.., 304M/622M, 22.3% uptime
    2.46 Crusader, Ret Pala 萌牛... 255M/457M, 33.9% uptime
    2.40 Trueshot, Marksman Jer.. 201M/562M, 18.8% uptime
    1.94 Combustion, Fire Mage, Ped. 227M/594M, 24.1% uptime
    1.85 Tiger's Fury, Feral Druid, Ха... 508M/622M, 70.7% uptime
    1.50 Adrenaline rush, Outlaw rogue, 절개, 196M/546M, 27.2% uptime
    1.47 Pillar of frost, Frost dk, Vers.., 359M/597M, 50.6% uptime

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    The idea was to show that if a buff with 90% uptime that only increases dps by 0.1% or even 0% is rated above other buffs there is something wrong with how you rate the buffs. The idea shouldn't be to rate how much damage you do with the buff active, but how much MORE damage you do with the buff - and that's what I gave a formula for.
    Stop being hyperbolic; none of the examples do this. Your formula is nothing but a roundabout way of coming up with the same result (the strength of the buff against damage done during the buff).

    Uptime is fairly irrelevant to the discussion. There are only two important outside factors:

    1. Length of encounter allowing +/- uses depending on the length of the cooldown (generally more important for classes with longer ones).
    2. Stacking buff damage - there's no way you can realistically separate that in logs, you'd have to rewrite the sims to account for not using the buff, and I'm not doing that much work for a non-issue.

    Regardless of how much you want to argue about how you come to the conclusion, it really doesn't change. Battle Cry certainly isn't one of the strongest buffs, nowhere near in fact. You could certainly argue that in conjunction with other effects Fury is highly dependent on buffs and cooldowns, especially this tier, given that Battle Cry and Bloodbath are always used in tandem. That said, it still wouldn't necessarily be any more dependent than many others.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Yes, actually, most of them are. Strictly speaking, Battle Cry isn't even near the top, it just feels more impactful because it's a frequent cooldown.

    Using a sample of top logs from M Garothi for each spec as an example (keep in mind there may be individual variance present):

    Class Cooldown CD Damage Total Damage Percentage
    Outlaw Rogue Adrenaline Rush 196m 546m 36%
    Marksman Hunter Trueshot Aura 201m 562m 36%
    Frost Mage Icy Veins 223m 608m 37%
    Fire Mage Combustion 227m 594m 38%
    Fury Warrior Battle Cry 304m 622m 48%
    Ret Paladin Crusade 255m 457m 56%
    Frost DK Pillar of Frost 359m 597m 60%
    Havoc DH Metamorphosis 322m 516m 62%
    Feral Druid Tiger's Fury 508m 621m 82%


    TLDR: The idea that Battle Cry is all important, or even a more important cooldown than most, is misinformed.
    then again, tiger's fury has basically 70% uptime so ofc it's gonna be like that

    I'm surprised symbols of death and sub rogue isnt on that list.

    the vast majority of sub dmg comes in the 4 seconds of shadow dance they do every ~22 seconds.
    Last edited by shaunika123; 2018-01-30 at 10:49 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Stop being hyperbolic; none of the examples do this.
    Wrong, it seemed this was the result for meta for havoc dh on this fight. Actually meta seemed even worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Your formula is nothing but a roundabout way of coming up with the same result (the strength of the buff against damage done during the buff).
    Obviously wrong, since the results differ.

    You used your incorrect math to argue that Tiger's fury was substantially stronger than Battle Cry - and that Battle Cry wasn't near the top.

    The round-about way was to show how much the damage is increased during the buff. Another measure would be how much that increased damage during the buff impacts the overall damage. Other measures like up-time and your damage during buff compared to total damage are MEANINGLESS in themselves.

    So, with the above two sensible measures we get (first is the previous value changed to a percentage, the second number should be EXTRA overall damage during buff compared to overall normal damage):
    185% / 60% Feral Tiger's Fury
    333% / 52% Fury Battle Cry
    246% / 49% Retr Crusader
    240% / 26% Marksman Trueshot
    147% / 24% Frost Dk Pillar of Frost
    194% / 23% Fire Combustion
    150%/ 14% Outlaw Adrenaline rush

    Clearly both measures are meaningful - depending on situation; and Battle Cry is either at the top or close to it; regardless of your flawed arguments.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    then again, tiger's fury has basically 70% uptime so ofc it's gonna be like that

    I'm surprised symbols of death and sub rogue isnt on that list.

    the vast majority of sub dmg comes in the 4 seconds of shadow dance they do every ~22 seconds.
    I just don't know sub well enough to talk about it, tbh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Wrong, it seemed this was the result for meta for havoc dh on this fight. Actually meta seemed even worse.
    No it's not, meta was 63%, which is a far cry from 90%. The point was to show how much damage is done during burst buffs to correlate their impact on the class which was the question raised in the OP they were on the rotation. Repeatedly pushing your flawed agenda doesn't change that.

    Obviously wrong, since the results differ.
    The results differ because you're measuring something completely different. You're missing the point: Yes, Battle Cry is a powerful buff (actually it's not nearly as powerful as implied there, since you're adding Battle Cry and Bloodbath together), but that's tempered by the uptime. End result doesn't change - more damage is done outside of a Warriors buffs than inside, how powerful the specific cooldown is is immaterial to that singular point. Yes, Battle Cry and it's associated benefits make up a big part of that, due to Fury's relatively lower base damage, but it still matters for assessing maximum damage output and how "tied to one spell" the spec is.

    Now, I'm really done with this unnecessary argument.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    No it's not, meta was 63%, which is a far cry from 90%.
    You are still missing the main point - it doesn't matter in itself if meta has an uptime of 63% or 62% of the damage is done during meta - or whether both of those numbers 90%.

    What matters is whether you do MORE dps during meta than outside it, so whether the buff actually increases the dps - but it seems that you do less damage during meta (assuming the numbers are correct I assume it is used for soaking). Or in number whether the buff increases dps while active by 0% or 230%.

    That is what matters - the INCREASED dps, and the INCREASED dps during Battle Cry is really high (more than the other buffs) causing it to significantly impact the overall dps (more than all of the other buffs - except Tiger's fury; and close to that one).

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    The point was to show how much damage is done during burst buffs to correlate their impact on the class which was the question raised in the OP
    How much total damage is done with buffs doesn't matter that much, and gives a flawed value since if the buff has high uptime you will do high damage during the buff - even if the buff barely increases dps.

    Which is why I stressed how much MORE damage is done during bursts buffs - which is matters to OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    The results differ because you're measuring something completely different.
    Yes, because I measure something that matters - how much the buff INCREASES damage/dps.

    If you cannot understand that I think it is good that you leave this discussion.
    Last edited by Forogil; 2018-01-31 at 08:12 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Yes, because I measure something that matters - how much the buff INCREASES damage/dps.

    If you cannot understand that I think it is good that you leave this discussion.
    Which was neither the question in the OP, nor the overall point; as I tried to explain to you repeatedly.

    You've done a magnificent job ignoring that in favor of pushing your own agenda, and twisted this so much you can't even see the point anymore. I already told you I'm done wasting time on this road to nowhere.

    Life pro tip: WRITING like THIS doesn't HELP anyone TAKE you SERIOUSLY.

  9. #29
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    off course. Fire mage outside of combustion window doesn't do much damage, as well as arcane mage without arcane power.

    I think OP has a problem not with buff itself, but how you have to manage your buffs to maximum effectiveness, which is the case of... git gud
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2018-01-31 at 08:24 AM.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Which was neither the question in the OP, nor the overall point; as I tried to explain to you repeatedly.
    Wrong again.

    OP complained that Fury's damage is reliant on Battlecry, which obviously means that the damage increase due to Battlecry is significant - when it's used correctly. Increase is the significant part and you still seem unable to grasp it.

    That frost dks do a larger percentage of their damage during Pillar of frost doesn't matter since pillar of frost doesn't buff their damage as much, and thus frost dks are less reliant on Pillar of frost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    You've done a magnificent job ignoring that in favor of pushing your own agenda, and twisted this so much you can't even see the point anymore.
    The only one who has ignored the point OP made for their own twisted agenda is you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Life pro tip: WRITING like THIS doesn't HELP anyone TAKE you SERIOUSLY.
    Correct, I don't take you seriously - since you randomly emphasize words.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    I think OP has a problem not with buff itself, but how you have to manage your buffs to maximum effectiveness, which is the case of... git gud
    That is another way of phrasing OP's complaint - if a spec is heavily reliant on a buff (especially one with low uptime) it is very easy to mess up and do really low damage.

  11. #31
    Actually the OPs post was specifically to do with timing in M+ and holding CDs for packs creating downtime making them feel like they "can't do any damage without cooldowns" which is factually wrong - Fury does more than half its damage outside of CDs. That's irrelevant however, increase is relative to total, it's an arbitrary distinction; the only difference is in how you want to measure it.

    The rest is just childish. Grow up and drop it.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Actually the OPs post was specifically to do with timing in M+ and holding CDs for packs creating downtime making them feel like they "can't do any damage without cooldowns" which is factually
    close to the truth since Fury does about triple dps during cooldowns - compared to outside it. (And OP wrote "hits like a wet noodle".)

    Thus keeping the cooldown for next pack makes a larger difference than for other specs - which is exactly OP's point.

    That other specs do more damage during cooldowns is irrelevant - since their buffs increase the dps less (that they anyhow do more damage during the buff is due to higher buff up-time).

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    The rest is just childish.
    In contrast to saying "I'm done wasting time", "I'm done wasting time" and then shadow-replying?
    Last edited by Forogil; 2018-01-31 at 11:09 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    In contrast to saying "I'm done wasting time", "I'm done wasting time" and then shadow-replying?
    Shadow what? I'm not using an alt account or hiding my posts, nor am I needlessly belittling your lack of understanding; I'm just not arguing with your premise anymore, since you're clearly not interested in discussion or a separate viewpoint from your own.

    There are people who post on the internet to talk to others, and then there are people who post on the internet to convince others. Trying to hold a conversation with the latter is a waste of time, as clearly indicated above.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Shadow what? I'm not using an alt account or hiding my posts, nor am I needlessly belittling your lack of understanding; I'm just not arguing with your premise anymore, since you're clearly not interested in discussion or a separate viewpoint from your own.

    There are people who post on the internet to talk to others, and then there are people who post on the internet to convince others. Trying to hold a conversation with the latter is a waste of time, as clearly indicated above.
    I think its because most people forget the whole "Overall M+ damage" about the argument

    Ignoring the argument about that if the OP is talking about the "feeling" then i dont think how anyone cant agree...

    I mean you pop everything and vaporize trash on a Fortfied 15+ dungeon and the next pack you rotation,rotation, WW, rampage, rotation rotation..woo!

    And then you log onto your DH alt without even proper legendaries and simply because the spec at its certain form is how it is, its the same on every pack pretty much, which is simply fun.

    Same with the DK and i am pretty sure WW monk is the same, and a couple others.

    There are simply some classes that are more "fun" when it comes to M+ and the majority that doesnt know what they are talking about would obviously focus on that.

    Obviously the overall damage of the dungeon and the uptimes do not change, the argument is silly to focus on that..but the playstyle fun is a very relevant subject
    Last edited by potis; 2018-02-01 at 01:26 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    I think its because most people forget the whole "Overall M+ damage" about the argument

    Ignoring the argument about that if the OP is talking about the "feeling" then i dont think how anyone cant agree...

    I mean you pop everything and vaporize trash on a Fortfied 15+ dungeon and the next pack you rotation,rotation, WW, rampage, rotation rotation..woo!

    And then you log onto your DH alt without even proper legendaries and simply because the spec at its certain form is how it is, its the same on every pack pretty much, which is simply fun.

    Same with the DK and i am pretty sure WW monk is the same, and a couple others.

    There are simply some classes that are more "fun" when it comes to M+ and the majority that doesnt know what they are talking about would obviously focus on that.

    Obviously the overall damage of the dungeon and the uptimes do not change, the argument is silly to focus on that..but the playstyle fun is a very relevant subject
    Yes, you are absolutely right. Archimtiros is right too, but he operates with raw numbers and statistics and the OP speaks about "feelings". I'm agree that if you speak about numbers in long encounters then fury is ok and it's fun to play fury. But when we are talking about M+ and leveling/world questing, its absolutely "antifun". I think that Blizzard should increase the damage outside of bursts phase and decrease it in BC (as it was in wotlk, recklessness was on high cd).

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ausername25 View Post
    Has any spec in the history of wow been tied to 1 spell more than Fury is currently reliant on Battlecry?
    Yes.

    Lots and far worse than BC since BC isn't a maintenance buff.

    Ret paladins in Cata and MoP keeping up inquisition - boy that was a pain in the ass chore that added nothing to gameplay.

    Outlaw rogues currently with Roll the Bones. A spell that they'll never really properly balance and while it does make the gameplay more interesting it makes you feel crappy depending on what rolls you get.

    Fire mages in combustion windows as mentioned previously.

    Feral druids at more or less any time.

    Unholy DKs in T20 at any point their army wasn't up might be a closer example to your battlecry statement.

    Battlecry really isn't that big a deal.

    I mean I love it, we all should and we all should lobby or at least hope for the effects of the CoF being either baked into the spec somehow or built into our Azerite armor pieces, but we do ok damage outside of the window and the window itself is open for such a short period of time that they can't buff it much more than it already is.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Shadow what? I'm not using an alt account or hiding my posts, nor am I needlessly belittling your lack of understanding;
    Replying without quoting who you reply to - to sneak in a reply. And the only one shown to lack understanding is you - since you cannot understand that there is a difference between damage during a buff and extra damage during a buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    There are people who post on the internet to talk to others, and then there are people who post on the internet to convince others. Trying to hold a conversation with the latter is a waste of time, as clearly indicated above.
    You mean that it is a waste of time trying to converse with you since it seems clear that you are trying to convince others that battlecry isn't in the top of impactful buffs?

    In fact battlecry is a significant buff - and fury warriors normally do triple their normal damage during those buff bursts - which is more impactful than the other listed buffs (combustion only doubles the damage for fire mages). Overall battlecry "only" increases damage by 52% for top-warriors.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotmor View Post
    Yes, you are absolutely right. Archimtiros is right too, but he operates with raw numbers and statistics and the OP speaks about "feelings".
    He isn't correct when he tries to show that other specs are substantially more reliant on other buffs than fury is on battlecry - he is just misusing statistics to show that e.g. frost dks do more of their damage during pillar of frost than fury warriors do during battlecry.

    What he ignores is that pillar of frost is a weak buff with average uptime, so most of the damage during pillar of frost is just normal dk damage (the dps increases less than 50% during pillar of frost) - whereas fury warriors can do >200% more dps during battlecry.

    Instead he should just have tried to show that battlecry is not alone at the top, and e.g ferals have a high uptime on tiger's fury and it gives a decent buff and combined its impact is thus slightly higher than battlecry (and it's a maintenance buff).

  18. #38
    Sorry, didn't know I had to specifically quote you to direct a response to you. Whoops, guess this is a "shadow reply" too! Sneaky sneaky!
    In case you couldn't tell, this is sarcasm...

    I tried to back out of the conversation because I'm tired of your shitty attitude, repeated belligerence, and unwillingness to have a rational discussion; I understand your point and I've not disputed it, I've tried to explain my point repeatedly and you don't want to hear it. There's really nothing else to talk about.

    I never made any of the arguments you're attributing to me. I never said Battle Cry is less important than Pillar, I never said Tiger's Fury was more important (in fact I specifically mentioned how powerful Fury is when stacking buffs including Battle Cry). I used a simple table to show that a significant amount of Fury's damage is still done outside of Battle Cry, and how that related to other specs, which was directly in reference to the OP's belief that Fury is incapable of doing any significant damage outside of Battle Cry. You used it to leap to a conclusion which I never offered.

    Likewise, I never offered any speculation as to which buff resulted in a larger direct damage increase than another, and the only point of yours which I refuted was that of damage stacking - what you're attributing to Battle Cry is actually a combination of Battle Cry (100% crit, ~40% inc dmg, Bloodbath (e40% inc dmg), Avatar (20% inc dmg), Enrage (~40-70% inc dmg), and Frothing Berserker (15% inc dmg), just like Pillar of Frost also includes Obliterate, making the matter much less black and white than presented.

    Stop leaping to conclusions. Understand that your point might be different from someone else's point, and the two are not mutually inclusive. I don't know who shat in your cheerios, but you really should consider calming down and moving on with your life.

  19. #39
    It would be lovely if we had more discussion around the topic at hand, and less flinging of irrelevant personal feuds, thanks.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I never made any of the arguments you're attributing to me. I never said Battle Cry is less important than Pillar, I never said Tiger's Fury was more important (in fact I specifically mentioned how powerful Fury is when stacking buffs including Battle Cry). I used a simple table to show that a significant amount of Fury's damage is still done outside of Battle Cry, and how that related to other specs, which was directly in reference to the OP's belief that Fury is incapable of doing any significant damage outside of Battle Cry. You used it to leap to a conclusion which I never offered.
    The comparison to other specs was deeply flawed as I have repeatedly shown, since a buff that barely increases dps (or even slightly decreases it) with high uptime would have a higher number than Battle cry. As for "conclusion never offered" see the end.

    You could just have accepted that the measurement was flawed and improved it, but instead you keep insisting - even you have twice claimed to stop "wasting your time".

    When fury warriors do triple their non-buffed dps during Battle Cry (in combination with other buffs - some due to stacking, some due to secondary effects of battle cry) it is actually fair to say the non-buffed dps hits like a wet noodle as OP wrote; and you failed to show that other specs had a similar disparity in dps.

    By using a percentage and getting higher numbers for buffs with significant uptime but weak buffs, like crusader you are trying to show that Battle cry is less significant that it is in reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Likewise, I never offered any speculation as to which buff resulted in a larger direct damage increase than another,
    Ah, yes, the no conclusion offered argument:
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Strictly speaking, Battle Cry isn't even near the top, it just feels more impactful because it's a frequent cooldown.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Regardless of how much you want to argue about how you come to the conclusion, it really doesn't change. Battle Cry certainly isn't one of the strongest buffs, nowhere near in fact. You could certainly argue that in conjunction with other effects Fury is highly dependent on buffs and cooldowns, especially this tier, given that Battle Cry and Bloodbath are always used in tandem. That said, it still wouldn't necessarily be any more dependent than many others.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Warriorsarri View Post
    It would be lovely if we had more discussion around the topic at hand, and less flinging of irrelevant personal feuds, thanks.
    I would also prefer that.

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