South Barrerns: Alliance: General Hawthorne

[Detheavn]

That's just the way WoW's zones work.

Well, yeah, but phasing going on everywhere, it's possible for a lot more permanent things now. Iirc they said that Lordaeron and Teldrassil won't be destroyed until 110-120 and stays like that. This means you'd get a zone phased from the old one.

I'm quite hopefull they will do more with this in the future, as this would allow for new quests in old zones again. You could always ask the bronze dragonflight to help you go back to the old world again

[Mormolyce]

Well, yeah, but phasing going on everywhere, it's possible for a lot more permanent things now. Iirc they said that Lordaeron and Teldrassil won't be destroyed until 110-120 and stays like that. This means you'd get a zone phased from the old one.

I'm quite hopefull they will do more with this in the future, as this would allow for new quests in old zones again. You could always ask the bronze dragonflight to help you go back to the old world again

I mean they could've phased out the whirlwind in Darkshore, but what difference would that really make? The vast majority of every zone would still be the same. They can't phase out the giant Cataclysm canyons on a lot of zone borders for one thing.

[Minikin]

The irony is the guy really wanted the war with the horde so bad and in the end all it brought him was causing his son to die. Which of course got him even more pissed & bloodthirsty.

But overall it's a good written zone, it shows both factions in ambiguous light instead of "here you go these are the bad guys". Similar thing with Stonetalon - you get a horde guy who wants everything bombed and you got another (a Tauren) who wants diplomacy but it ends with his family killed as far as I remember. However Garrosh throws the bomberman general off a cliff as a punishment.

I liked these stories. Contrary to for example most Forsaken stories where it always ends "just press the I WIN button, drop the plague, problem solved". I really don't like the post-WOTLK Forsaken lore. I hope BFA brings something more than "Sylvanas uses plague for n-th time driving all opponents away or killing them".

Now that I think of it, many interesting horde stories involve Tauren (like 1000 needles) and I hope with the addition of Highmountain allied race, we'll get more of their stories.

so i just finished all the quests but i didnt see that sequence but the otherway around.

- he sends you on a quest to go to Bael Modan and check on his son if hes ok.
- You get there to find that the dwarves are under attack from tauren
- the son asks you to dispatch some tauren, collect some relics, and kill this trogg (there is a miner there that warns you not to try to go in the mine, they found something bad in there)
- when you turn those in, the son packs up, and you get onto his airplane with him, to fly to his dad/fort triumph
as you fly over bael modan, he is talking about how it was the first dwarven settlement in kalimdor, they are very proud of it and its virtually indestructible, that bael modan blows up from the inside out.
-your plane is hit, you crash land right infront of bael modan. the son is mortally wounded, just asks for ale.
- you do some side quests of saving people from the inside and finding out how this happened while getting the ale
- you find a goblin got in and blasted the whole thing to bits
- the son dies after drinking that ale
- you go tell the dad, hes pissed, and orders killing goblins in the near by cave and then blasting the cave in to send a message
- Story ends there no further quest.

So i dunno sounds like he wasnt really related to hawthorne and he retaliated to the goblins for his son's death.

[Kaleredar]

I mean they could've phased out the whirlwind in Darkshore, but what difference would that really make?

It makes cool things like that MORE cool. Or rather, I should say that seeing "cool actiony things" everywhere that never stop makes them less cool.

It's like a cool action scene in Fury Road versus the random unceasing baysplosions of a transformers movie. As I said in my previous post, it's a matter of "there's the spot that I stopped that giant hurricane!" versus "why is that hurricane still there I thought I put a stop to it why should I even care if my actions don't have any consequences."

The vast majority of every zone would still be the same. They can't phase out the giant Cataclysm canyons on a lot of zone borders for one thing.

Why not? I can see Sargeras' sword from Ferelas, so phasing those borders wouldn't really isn't an issue.

[Felixon]

Correct me if I'm wrong,but didn't that dwarf get an insta karma by losing his son in Bael Modan?

[DeicideUH]

so i just finished all the quests but i didnt see that sequence but the otherway around.

- he sends you on a quest to go to Bael Modan and check on his son if hes ok.
- You get there to find that the dwarves are under attack from tauren
- the son asks you to dispatch some tauren, collect some relics, and kill this trogg (there is a miner there that warns you not to try to go in the mine, they found something bad in there)
- when you turn those in, the son packs up, and you get onto his airplane with him, to fly to his dad/fort triumph
as you fly over bael modan, he is talking about how it was the first dwarven settlement in kalimdor, they are very proud of it and its virtually indestructible, that bael modan blows up from the inside out.
-your plane is hit, you crash land right infront of bael modan. the son is mortally wounded, just asks for ale.
- you do some side quests of saving people from the inside and finding out how this happened while getting the ale
- you find a goblin got in and blasted the whole thing to bits
- the son dies after drinking that ale
- you go tell the dad, hes pissed, and orders killing goblins in the near by cave and then blasting the cave in to send a message
- Story ends there no further quest.

So i dunno sounds like he wasnt really related to hawthorne and he retaliated to the goblins for his son's death.

It wasn't related, indeed.

Hawthorne's death was due to his underlings not agreeing with him and the Horde seeing him as a monster. In the end, his death allows worse people in the Alliance to take his place.

Cataclysm was a depressive experience to the Alliance. A lot of zones are like that: good guys dying, things getting worse, bad guys (within the Alliance) getting the upper hand, Alliance defeated, lost Alliance bases. Rinse, repeat. Even the only Alliance victory (Dustwallow Marsh) does not feel like a victory because the questline ends abruptly (you sack Stonard, but leave the Horde alive so they are expected to surrender. Then you go to Blasted Lands without ever seeing any surrendering.

Fun fact: the dwarf general later returns in the Pandaria campaign in Krasarang. The problem is that his entire role is to be killed by Horde's legendary cape questline (which has since been removed).

[Minikin]

It wasn't related, indeed.

Hawthorne's death was due to his underlings not agreeing with him and the Horde seeing him as a monster. In the end, his death allows worse people in the Alliance to take his place.

Cataclysm was a depressive experience to the Alliance. A lot of zones are like that: good guys dying, things getting worse, bad guys (within the Alliance) getting the upper hand, Alliance defeated, lost Alliance bases. Rinse, repeat. Even the only Alliance victory (Dustwallow Marsh) does not feel like a victory because the questline ends abruptly (you sack Stonard, but leave the Horde alive so they are expected to surrender. Then you go to Blasted Lands without ever seeing any surrendering.

Fun fact: the dwarf general later returns in the Pandaria campaign in Krasarang. The problem is that his entire role is to be killed by Horde's legendary cape questline (which has since been removed).

Yea it's sad but real good story telling. I'm trying to see if horde have similar ones (besides stonetalon) so I can make my way through those later.

I'll have to check out dustwallow now! You mentioned stonard but isn't stonard in swamp of sorrows? Should I head to swamp or dustwallow for the quest you mentioned?

[DeicideUH]

Yea it's sad but real good story telling. I'm trying to see if horde have similar ones (besides stonetalon) so I can make my way through those later.

I'll have to check out dustwallow now! You mentioned stonard but isn't stonard in swamp of sorrows? Should I head to swamp or dustwallow for the quest you mentioned?

Sorry! It's Swamp of Sorrows! For some reason, I got them confused! Swamp of Sorrows also has a good draenei side story.

Another good one is Western Plaguelands, in which the Battle of Andorhal has way more meaning if you do both sides.

The stories, taken by themselves, are indeed pretty good. The problem is repetition: Alliance is constantly losing, Horde wins. But in both sides there's corruption, good guys dying, bad guys having the upper hand. Very nice war stories, but the constant flow of bad things happening ends up being a little too depressive.

If you get tired of depressive war stories and want good zones with a more positive outcome, I suggest Eastern Plaguelands (the Caravan storyline is pretty cool and it's one of the few zones in which you feel like a true heroic adventurer) and Badlands (Wrathion's origin story). Searing Gorge is also about being an heroic adventurer, but not the best storytelling.

For a little dumb fun, Burning Steppes is a parody of Rambo, but at least you get to be a badass hero. If Alliance, I suggest doing Redridge before that, as one is the follow-up to the other.

[Detheavn]

I mean they could've phased out the whirlwind in Darkshore, but what difference would that really make? The vast majority of every zone would still be the same. They can't phase out the giant Cataclysm canyons on a lot of zone borders for one thing.

Like @Kaleredar said. The phasing of Theramore works like that as well. Fly over the barrens/1k needles and look at Dustwallow Marsh. It's not like the tech can't support it, it's just that it never has been used in that way.

Back in WotLK Icecrown even had areas with multiple phases depending on quest progress and if you picked up AT dailies, so multiple overlapping phases was already a thing. Perhaps that could be fleshed out as well, so we don't have to pull a Cataclysm to make old zones relevant in many expansions to come

[Minikin]

Sorry! It's Swamp of Sorrows! For some reason, I got them confused! Swamp of Sorrows also has a good draenei side story.

Another good one is Western Plaguelands, in which the Battle of Andorhal has way more meaning if you do both sides.

The stories, taken by themselves, are indeed pretty good. The problem is repetition: Alliance is constantly losing, Horde wins. But in both sides there's corruption, good guys dying, bad guys having the upper hand. Very nice war stories, but the constant flow of bad things happening ends up being a little too depressive.

If you get tired of depressive war stories and want good zones with a more positive outcome, I suggest Eastern Plaguelands (the Caravan storyline is pretty cool and it's one of the few zones in which you feel like a true heroic adventurer) and Badlands (Wrathion's origin story). Searing Gorge is also about being an heroic adventurer, but not the best storytelling.

For a little dumb fun, Burning Steppes is a parody of Rambo, but at least you get to be a badass hero. If Alliance, I suggest doing Redridge before that, as one is the follow-up to the other.

All good! That works out perfectly cuz I've been thinking of heading to swamp and then blasted lands.

I loved the caravan one! I think I still have the locket somewhere...

Im saving redridge and such for allied race one. Last time I did that area and searing gorge was when I initially leveled in bc on my druid and paladin. So it's been a while. The only ones I did there after the revamp where the punch deathwing in the face and the wrathion egg one in Badlands.

Thanks for the tips!

I can agree it gets depressing as alliance (I try to remain as neutral as possible). I can somewhat see why the horde is gaining. They are trying to equalize the superpowers. Until SoO alliance was the power house still, with BfA I'd guess the factions will be pretty even given the world is divided nearly evenly in two (eastern kingdoms is all ally except silvermoon, kalimdor is all horde except azuremyst).

So hopefully after this the is more light on faction nature rather than just underhanded attacks that either end up in 1. Alliance is the good guy Knight in shining armor 2. Horde can't surrender but can't win either, options.

Anduin needs to prove himself that he is actually the leader he wanted to be and his father saw he could be, what arthas could have been. And sylvannas has to understand that the horde comes before her agenda and chosing otherwise will make her garrosh 2.0.

AND HOPEFULLY tons and tons of old od quests like black empire and stuff. That stuff is sick!

I have high hopes for some kick ass storytelling for us.

[Shibito]

Yeah it was a good bit of lore. The revamped zones in Cata actually had some of the best writing of any WoW zone, and all people ever did was piss and moan about them...



Maybe don't play Alliance if you don't like the fantasy of being the good guys.

thing is blizzard said there is no good or evil faction....

[Minikin]

Correct me if I'm wrong,but didn't that dwarf get an insta karma by losing his son in Bael Modan?

Nah his son gets killed beforehand and because of that he goes to attack the goblins. Not the other way.

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thing is blizzard said there is no good or evil faction....

evil is just a perspective and I am glad they stay away from just ouright showing a whole faction as evil or noble. for example just in this quest chain you see one alliance guy who is a general so he is fighting and killing horde BUT he also sees that civilians need not be harmed. Similarly the tauren in stonetalon who argued for diplomacy concerning the night elves and just like the alliance general he paid the price for being a good person. So in the factions there are good and bad people just like any general tribe, civilization but that one person is not reflective of the entire people.

Saying the alliance are the good guys is a bit of, short hand notation i guess, its easier to type that rather than a full out explanation, but in my opinion what that means is that alliance general responds to an attack rather than going out and taking it initially. that was the core reason it was formed, however as time has gone by blizzard is trying to show some initiative on their side, Camp Taurajo was one example of this.

The horde is more, active? or forward thinking? i dunno what term best fits but as compared to the alliance the horde races have to be more aggresive because they are either beaten into a corner (trolls) or had really bad history (orcs). They have taken ashenvale not just for conquest, but lumber. But then they have incidents like theramore where in comparision to their alliance counterpart Garrosh didnt care about civilians (Theramore had more than just military living there). So it paints them in a bit of a bad light. Makes them complex. The forsaken take it to the next level. Every other race starting zone is killing boars, theirs involves necromancy and human testing lol. But then again, they are zombies, having them collect mushrooms or round up boars would be pretty stupid.

I feel like all these expansions have been bit by bit a ramp up to bfA. The alliance has been slowly losing ground since vanilla and come bfA the horde will finally stand as a direct equivalent super power as the world will be fairly evenly split into two and divided by a water body. After BfA, i think issues like hawthorne, or krom'gar will stand out far more because once the factions are equal, the "good" and the "bad" actions will be magnified.

[Felixon]

Nah his son gets killed beforehand and because of that he goes to attack the goblins. Not the other way.

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evil is just a perspective and I am glad they stay away from just ouright showing a whole faction as evil or noble. for example just in this quest chain you see one alliance guy who is a general so he is fighting and killing horde BUT he also sees that civilians need not be harmed. Similarly the tauren in stonetalon who argued for diplomacy concerning the night elves and just like the alliance general he paid the price for being a good person. So in the factions there are good and bad people just like any general tribe, civilization but that one person is not reflective of the entire people.

Saying the alliance are the good guys is a bit of, short hand notation i guess, its easier to type that rather than a full out explanation, but in my opinion what that means is that alliance general responds to an attack rather than going out and taking it initially. that was the core reason it was formed, however as time has gone by blizzard is trying to show some initiative on their side, Camp Taurajo was one example of this.

The horde is more, active? or forward thinking? i dunno what term best fits but as compared to the alliance the horde races have to be more aggresive because they are either beaten into a corner (trolls) or had really bad history (orcs). They have taken ashenvale not just for conquest, but lumber. But then they have incidents like theramore where in comparision to their alliance counterpart Garrosh didnt care about civilians (Theramore had more than just military living there). So it paints them in a bit of a bad light. Makes them complex. The forsaken take it to the next level. Every other race starting zone is killing boars, theirs involves necromancy and human testing lol. But then again, they are zombies, having them collect mushrooms or round up boars would be pretty stupid.

I feel like all these expansions have been bit by bit a ramp up to bfA. The alliance has been slowly losing ground since vanilla and come bfA the horde will finally stand as a direct equivalent super power as the world will be fairly evenly split into two and divided by a water body. After BfA, i think issues like hawthorne, or krom'gar will stand out far more because once the factions are equal, the "good" and the "bad" actions will be magnified.

Ah,sounds like a good reason,to play through the Barrens campaign,thank you.

[Minikin]

Ah,sounds like a good reason,to play through the Barrens campaign,thank you.

not a problem! i found it pretty well done!

[Nekosom]

Yeah it was a good bit of lore. The revamped zones in Cata actually had some of the best writing of any WoW zone, and all people ever did was piss and moan about them...



Maybe don't play Alliance if you don't like the fantasy of being the good guys.

The entire conceit of the Horde/Alliance conflict is that there are no good guys and bad guys. Just different shades of grey. Portraying the Alliance as simply the "good guys" undercuts the entire narrative Blizzard is trying to tell. If the Alliance are "good guys" then the Horde has zero justification to fight them. Which then makes the Horde the "bad guys" in the story. And Blizzard has gone out of their way to emphasize that the Horde are not bad guys.

I'd be fine being just the good guys. But that's not the story Blizzard's telling. The problem is, the practice with Blizzard storytellers when it comes to that conflict has always been writing the Horde side first, then shoehorning in the Alliance perspective later. And the end result always ends up being, "Watch the aftermath of the Horde players' story, and do nothing." And my god, Cataclysm was especially bad about it.

[Mormolyce]

The entire conceit of the Horde/Alliance conflict is that there are no good guys and bad guys. Just different shades of grey. Portraying the Alliance as simply the "good guys" undercuts the entire narrative Blizzard is trying to tell. If the Alliance are "good guys" then the Horde has zero justification to fight them. Which then makes the Horde the "bad guys" in the story. And Blizzard has gone out of their way to emphasize that the Horde are not bad guys.

I'd be fine being just the good guys. But that's not the story Blizzard's telling. The problem is, the practice with Blizzard storytellers when it comes to that conflict has always been writing the Horde side first, then shoehorning in the Alliance perspective later. And the end result always ends up being, "Watch the aftermath of the Horde players' story, and do nothing." And my god, Cataclysm was especially bad about it.

It's actually more like there are no bad guys. There might be good guys.