For those who play both Sub & Sin...

[elfporn]

My m+ setup includes cloak/shoulder leggo combo and I do quite well on trash dps. I open with a FoK from stealth for the crit and increased dmg (can open with like 5M dps just after a single FoK) and just use FoK as a builder and rupture all mobs as spenders, switching to envenoms after all mobs are dotted. Especially nice when your adds are staying alive longer on higher keys. This usually nets me 2-2.5m dps alone, and if pb procs, well, then shit just dies.

And I’m only 943, I’m no god.

You're still going about it like you're at the start of legion, starved for energy, and low mastery.

Things are different now. The shoulders are fine, the cloak is marginal - bracers will net more dmg per pack. Mastery has skyrocketed, the 2p/4p t21 bonuses are amazing, and buff your aoe significantly. If you're multidotting bleeds with the 4set, you're doing it wrong, though that was the correct way earlier in the expac.

setup garrote/rupture on one target, then fok 3 envenom 1 constantly, ignoring overcapping cp unless you're focusing 1 target.

[Aluren]

i feel like i need to point out that it's possible to do significant aoe damage without fishing for PB - i can maintain with fire mage without pb.

poison bomb fishing is a bad way to try and aoe as assination at current gear levels- your aoe dps will suck. It's much better to pump out FoK while maintaining virulent poisons. Particularly if you have 3 master alch relics, or still have PK relics from the time of the bug.

I dont think just spamming FoK is good, you'll be wasting CPs you could be using to keep Rupture up on all targets and maybe get a couple of PB procs. As far as Assa aoe goes, I think that using FoK as builder and spamming Rupture/Envenom and hoping for PB to proc is, sadly, the way to go.

[elfporn]

I dont think just spamming FoK is good, you'll be wasting CPs you could be using to keep Rupture up on all targets and maybe get a couple of PB procs. As far as Assa aoe goes, I think that using FoK as builder and spamming Rupture/Envenom and hoping for PB to proc is, sadly, the way to go.

I don’t think i’m getting this across well.

With 4set(and the 160%+ mastery we should all have), maintaining virulent poisons and proccing instant poison as often as possible (and PK) will net more damage than spreading ruptures.

Spreading ruptures/garrote to each target is time consuming. And unless you’re capping CP in 1 FoK, it won’t allow you to maintain virulent poisons for the entire time. It’s a slow process and when your targets don’t live longer than 10-30 seconds...it’s a waste.

It’s better to go for faster ramp, and with bracers on, high execute under 30%.

[silkworm]

I don’t think i’m getting this across well.

With 4set(and the 160%+ mastery we should all have), maintaining virulent poisons and proccing instant poison as often as possible (and PK) will net more damage than spreading ruptures.

Spreading ruptures/garrote to each target is time consuming. And unless you’re capping CP in 1 FoK, it won’t allow you to maintain virulent poisons for the entire time. It’s a slow process and when your targets don’t live longer than 10-30 seconds...it’s a waste.

It’s better to go for faster ramp, and with bracers on, high execute under 30%.

This is pretty solid advice. Only I don't have the mantle so I use FoK Cloak and bracers for thrash. I was trying to FoK rupture all until one day it all dinged in my mind. WTF? I have %180 mastery, PK trait (not relics) 3 Master Alchemy relics. I made some napkin math and has to agree.

My only variation is that in M+ I use Subterfuge and I do not have the Mantle. So I can usually garrote 2 targets and 3 if I can make it, then simply go 1-2 FoK and Envenom. Since I have at least 2 bleeds running I'm not energy starved and if necessary I rupture priority target. The Poisoned Knives regular trait only + 2 Master Alchemy Relics and high mastery (I have around %190 but drop to %160 to use some avoidance gear for survival) they all synergise pretty well. I don't even change legendaries for boss fights, if its not tyrannical because bosses die fast enough and its not worth to use Boots. (No mantle) If I had the mantle tho I would switch to mantle for bosses. Also if its tyrannical I swap gear as well.

[Aluren]

I don’t think i’m getting this across well.

With 4set(and the 160%+ mastery we should all have), maintaining virulent poisons and proccing instant poison as often as possible (and PK) will net more damage than spreading ruptures.

Spreading ruptures/garrote to each target is time consuming. And unless you’re capping CP in 1 FoK, it won’t allow you to maintain virulent poisons for the entire time. It’s a slow process and when your targets don’t live longer than 10-30 seconds...it’s a waste.

It’s better to go for faster ramp, and with bracers on, high execute under 30%.

Interesting, with how many adds you start to ignore rupture? And won't you end up starving energy without Rupture?

[elfporn]

Interesting, with how many adds you start to ignore rupture? And won't you end up starving energy without Rupture?

All you really need is rupture and garrote on one target. Maintaining virulent poisons as you FoK will keep you from being energy starved due to the set bonus. 2+ targets, though with 2 i will bleed the second target depending on its TTL (time to live). If the affixes warrant targets dying at nearly the same time, i will tab for each envenom, and/or bring down targets higher than the others.

2 target cleave(both bleeding) i weave in 1 mut and 1 FoK instead of all FoK.

[BakalakadakaVM]

setup garrote/rupture on one target, then fok 3 envenom 1 constantly, ignoring overcapping cp unless you're focusing 1 target.

Is it bleeds, then fok during 2set buff (4-5 fok) and only envenom to refresh buff (ignoring overcapping cp) - or do you always cast envenom at 4+ cp?

[Mamercus]

I play both and am 10/11 Mythic with some mixture of blue, purple, and orange parses on mythic and mostly orange in heroic minus Eonar and AHC. I have the world rank 84 on heroic Aggramar with assassination and the world rank 48 on heroic Aggramar with sub.

I still have a 915 relic in assassination still with BiS traits so that should give you an idea of how forgiving assassination is.

I think that since 7.3.5 assassination pulls very far ahead of sub for most bosses in damage particularly with a lot of mastery. It is also much easier to play and much less reliant on procs like Energetic Stabbing. Since the patch sub kind of hits like a kitten compared to assassination as long as you have a lot of mastery. Deadly poison alone does so much damage that it is a lot harder to screw up with assassination.

In M+ I think sub is better. Its main cooldowns are shorter, you have easier access to more stuns, and your burst AoE is entirely in your control. Your cooldowns are also AoE friendly whereas Vendetta is single target only. Kingsbane has only marginal uses on trash. It's probably better bolstering week than it is on other weeks relative to sub.

4 piece assassination is so much better than it is for sub that it's absurd. The sub 4 piece is only good single target and has lackluster/bursty/totally random output. If your procs hit during SoD and/ your vanish window it's pretty spicy. Otherwise it's pretty underwhelming and can happen at awkward spots. The assassination 4 piece by contrast is just that you do more damage more better and it scales even better in multitarget.

[elfporn]

Is it bleeds, then fok during 2set buff (4-5 fok) and only envenom to refresh buff (ignoring overcapping cp) - or do you always cast envenom at 4+ cp?

Depends on what youre trying to do. Ignore overcapping cp’s if youre going full on aoe(envenom every 3rd or 4th FoK), for single target funneling, drop envenoms at 4+ on the target, while using FoK to build. One set of bleeds in any aoe situation will keep up with energy consumption because of the set bonus, so long as you maintain virulent poisons with an envenom every 4-5 gcd’s.

[msdos]

In BFA, when they global delete AOE stuns, Sub will be head and shoulders above the other 2 for that ability to basically delete a mob from a trash pack with shadowdance combos. Plus everything else.

[Varolyn]

In BFA, when they global delete AOE stuns, Sub will be head and shoulders above the other 2 for that ability to basically delete a mob from a trash pack with shadowdance combos. Plus everything else.

Way too early to say that, as we have no idea how any of the specs will be tuned in BFA.

[silkworm]

I still have a 915 relic in assassination still with BiS traits so that should give you an idea of how forgiving assassination is.

What do you consider BiS relic traits? Just curious becasue I swapped to 960/970 relics because they simmed higher than my personal preferences which was 3 x Master Alchemist + 2 Master Assasin + 1 Balanced Blades. My relics were 925 940 ish I'm not sure exactly but new ones are 970-960 and 960 respectively. Now I have higher ilvl but 2 x Toxic Blade (increase Envenom damage) 2 x Gushing Wound (increase Rupture)+ 1 Master Alchemy + 1 Balanced Blades

I did not mind losing Master Assasin because I usually do only HC and we just started doing Mythic Antorus (2-3 bosses at most) which means kill times are below 4-5 minute mark which justifies Master Assasin trait. But was I wrong to lose 2 Master Alchemists?

[elfporn]

What do you consider BiS relic traits? Just curious becasue I swapped to 960/970 relics because they simmed higher than my personal preferences which was 3 x Master Alchemist + 2 Master Assasin + 1 Balanced Blades. My relics were 925 940 ish I'm not sure exactly but new ones are 970-960 and 960 respectively. Now I have higher ilvl but 2 x Toxic Blade (increase Envenom damage) 2 x Gushing Wound (increase Rupture)+ 1 Master Alchemy + 1 Balanced Blades

I did not mind losing Master Assasin because I usually do only HC and we just started doing Mythic Antorus (2-3 bosses at most) which means kill times are below 4-5 minute mark which justifies Master Assasin trait. But was I wrong to lose 2 Master Alchemists?

Idk about the dude you’re quoting, but my own goal is 3 master alch relics with 2 balanced blades and 1 master ass.

Currently i am close to where i want to be - i have the 3 master alch relics, and 1 master ass.

The reasoning has to do with the t21 set - deadly poison has a higher impact on damage now(esp after buff), mastery is a a lot higher. And the t21 bonuses increase energy regen, which with my setup (t20 2p, t21 40, boots/bracers) keeps vendetta and kb on a short cd. KB is around 31 seconds or so usually, vendetta easily every other KB/TB cycle.

Right now i’m not GCD capped(of course), but i’m not energy starved until just before i vendetta again, and at that point it’s a few seconds wait - balanced blades would go a long way to increasing dps by increasing my DPE with more 4cp mutilates.

In short, my build is likely to benefit more from increased mut crit than 2 or 3x master ass relics. Especially with the diminishing returns master ass has - i have vendetta (usually) lining up where i need it already.

But your setup is probably different - in either case, master alch relics are BiS by a large margin, last i checked, and master ass relics should be pretty good too, up to a point, and/or gear dependent.

[ymirsson]

master ass, heh

[Seezer]

Which do you use for what? How do you decide?

I've only played my rogue alt a wee bit this expansion, so am no expert, but my newly formed M+ team is BrM-Resto Druid-Warrior-Mage-Rogue.

The rogue has always played Sin, but the warrior and mage are keen on him learning Sub because they believe it will be better for M+. We all like the player and want him on team regardless. He is great at executing all the rogue utility stuff. He is willing to try whatever to help the team, but reluctant because his numbers would go down while learning even if they came up again eventually.

I myself am open minded and eager to hear more expert opinions.

Sub and Mut

[Mamercus]

What do you consider BiS relic traits? Just curious becasue I swapped to 960/970 relics because they simmed higher than my personal preferences which was 3 x Master Alchemist + 2 Master Assasin + 1 Balanced Blades. My relics were 925 940 ish I'm not sure exactly but new ones are 970-960 and 960 respectively. Now I have higher ilvl but 2 x Toxic Blade (increase Envenom damage) 2 x Gushing Wound (increase Rupture)+ 1 Master Alchemy + 1 Balanced Blades

I did not mind losing Master Assasin because I usually do only HC and we just started doing Mythic Antorus (2-3 bosses at most) which means kill times are below 4-5 minute mark which justifies Master Assasin trait. But was I wrong to lose 2 Master Alchemists?

M-ass 3x and M-alch 3x. Alternatively 1x M-Ass, 3x M-alch, 2x Balanced Blades. 3x MA is good because it overlaps better with your other cooldowns, but not as good anymore as just 1x MA. For the middle traits realistically you won't have a choice even with a ton of farming but just aim for the good ones.

2x MA is not a good combo -- should be 1x or 3x.

Master Alchemist starts to go insane when you have very high mastery. I don't really know what to tell you for heroic. Just play perfectly and have a fast kill time and you will kill the boss faster?

Bleeds are very weak this tier because they do not scale with mastery. Rupture does pathetic damage relative to deadly poison compared to how it was earlier in the expansion. Really the bleeds are just there to give you more energy so you can keep rolling Surge of Toxins and keep closer to 100% uptime. The bleed relics are weak now because the poison damage is in the stratosphere.

Next expansion bleeds will also scale with mastery so the class will not have this issue.

[Softbottom]

I am boosting a rogue with my xpac purchase and really want to try out outlaw. Is this spec any good for rogues? What is everyone playing right now for PVE?

[elfporn]

I am boosting a rogue with my xpac purchase and really want to try out outlaw. Is this spec any good for rogues? What is everyone playing right now for PVE?

Outlaw is good enough right now. The gearing considerations for the spec can be immensely complex compared to the other two, but that's high level playing.

Outlaw is iirc, the highest simming spec with a specific gear, talent, relic, and legendary loadout.

Play what is the most enjoyable for you.

[Softbottom]

Outlaw is good enough right now. The gearing considerations for the spec can be immensely complex compared to the other two, but that's high level playing.

Outlaw is iirc, the highest simming spec with a specific gear, talent, relic, and legendary loadout.

Play what is the most enjoyable for you.

I haven't played a rogue since TBC and that was just briefly; All of the specs prob play alot differently now anyways. I mainly wanted to try outlaw cause it's a new spec. Mind you all three will prob feel new to me

[Greylan]

I haven't played a rogue since TBC and that was just briefly; All of the specs prob play alot differently now anyways. I mainly wanted to try outlaw cause it's a new spec. Mind you all three will prob feel new to me

In my (subjective) opinion, you'll have a lot of fun with outlaw though you may not like your place on the meters until you gear up. I've played all three specs quite a bit this xpac and have had the most fun with outlaw by far.