"The neckbeards aren't gone... they're WAITING."

[chazus]

He brought up a very interesting point about the MMORPG audience not being dead, but simply waiting in the wings for the next hardcore AAA MMO to release

So... You're saying his point was that gamers were looking forward to a good video game? Color me dubious.

[Marakesh]

Here's another question - what direction has WoW itself taken over the last couple years. They hit rock bottom (for them) going all in on casual pve as impossible to fail string of instances. Since then, they've started taking away things, getting back to their core audience I would think. There's more about being out in the world, making that world content tougher with less qol features, even before you consider the return of classic wow, the retail game is starting to look like it more and more. Sure, its smaller moves right now, but to me, its clear the direction has changed.

Anyways, I suspect the worse the numbers look for each new mmo, the cheaper costs are to make them, the more hardcore mmo's we will see. I think you all are quite wrong about where we are headed.

[Pull My Finger]

I had the opporunity to sit down with Asmongold yesterday and talk about Classic WoW and MMOs in general (link is in my signature).

He brought up a very interesting point about the MMORPG audience not being dead, but simply waiting in the wings for the next hardcore AAA MMO to release. I wanted to know how you guys feel about that; Do you think the MMORPG market is still alive and well, but dormant? Could we see another resurgence of the genre with Classic WoW?

No.

The whole "hardcore MMO" audience thing is in fact a huge "you think you do, but you don't", and it extends beyond WoW.

[Sormine]

I had the opporunity to sit down with Asmongold yesterday and talk about Classic WoW and MMOs in general (link is in my signature).

He brought up a very interesting point about the MMORPG audience not being dead, but simply waiting in the wings for the next hardcore AAA MMO to release. I wanted to know how you guys feel about that; Do you think the MMORPG market is still alive and well, but dormant? Could we see another resurgence of the genre with Classic WoW?

The mmorpg market has a huge untapped base waiting for the next big game. Unfortunately the best mmorpg out there right now is still in subscription only mode. If a new developer wants to make the next hit mmorpg they're going to have to accept the fact that paying money on a monthly basis is old hat and that they're just going to be substituted by gamers for lesser games.

[Lylandra]

I hope the neckbeards are gone for good. Gamers have evolved from that stereotype.

[Kaibhan]

I hope the neckbeards are gone for good. Gamers have evolved from that stereotype.

Gamers never really were that stereotype. But the people who thought so still do.

[Deleted]

Wildstar was made for a demographic that simply no longer exists. The majority of people who "wanted" Wildstar were people who only pretended to have played Vanilla because they thought it was cool.

Also, the game was pretty garbage too, so I'm not sure that helped!

I agree, but the OP tries to argue the demographic exists after all.

I'd say I'm unconvienced and the failure of Wildstar, while not being evidence, is at least a clue. WoW thrived not because it was hardcore, on the contrary, it managed to bring the MMO genre to the masses.

[Shibito]

Popular twitch streamer. I think he plays a Warrior? Not sure if he does raiding or PvP though.

Ah and why does it matter what he thinks?

[HuxNeva]

who is asmogold?

Clueless YouTuber, sadly associated with WoW.

[Projectmars]

Ah and why does it matter what he thinks?

Because he's popular. Much like why it matters what Movie Stars, Musicians, and JK Rowling thinks.

[Airlick]

Wasn't W* going to revive the "hardcore" (whatever that means) MMO? That one worked well!

It could have if it wasn't released unfinished, unpolished and extremely buggy.

I think if any "hardcore" MMORPG is ever to be successful, it's going to have to be a game that doesn't have challenging and repeatable content locked behind a massive grind/paywall. But then, part of the definition of "hardcore" is grindy, and good players blow through even very challenging PvE content much faster than devs can pump it out, and then they don't really have an incentive to go on.

This is why PvP games are so popular nowadays, especially MOBAs, they are free, they are easy to get into, and thanks to matchmaking, the challenge is always there as you're matched with more-or-less comparable players. So I think that hypothetical MMORPG would have to follow these solutions.

[Deleted]

I agree, but the OP tries to argue the demographic exists after all.

I'd say I'm unconvienced and the failure of Wildstar, while not being evidence, is at least a clue. WoW thrived not because it was hardcore, on the contrary, it managed to bring the MMO genre to the masses.

I'd honestly say that the total and utter failure of Wildstar is all the evidence anyone needs. It had all the popular features and buzzwords that the players love. Attunements! Hardcore! 40 man raids! Skill based combat! Constant update cycle!

Then after what, 4 months?, the 28 day content cycle was changed to be 3 months, 40 man raids were changed to 20 and the attunements were removed and my favorite, they literally cancelled Christmas. To repeat myself, the demographic they were targeting doesn't even exist, it was an illusion created by people screaming in an echo chamber about how amazing vanilla was (For the record, I loved Vanilla when it was current) and people thought they could sound like hardcore, grizzled WoW veterans sitting in the corner of a tavern with an eyepatch looking cool and badass if they just repeated what people were saying until they actually got what they wanted.

Then it turns out they didn't want it, lol. They thought they did, but they didn't.

[cparle87]

The thing FF14 did right is not call themselves a WOW killer. They set out to fix their broken ass game and really listen to their community. Looks like it paid off. Who knew? :P

Why people equate listening to the community to listening to the minority of frothing ragers on the forums I'll never know.

[Deleted]

Why people equate listening to the community to listening to the minority of frothing ragers on the forums I'll never know.

I'm not sure what you mean, but FF14 was an absolute disaster at launch. Like, they couldn't even buy reviews off of IGN or Gamespot bad, even they slammed it. And instead of doing what 99% of failed MMOs do, blame the consumers and then go F2P to try and milk more shekels out of the 5 people that still care about the game, they admitted their game was trash, offered refunds and then went and remade the game almost entirely and now it's pretty successful with it's 3rd? expansion, and they never had to resort to going F2P like every other failed "WoW Killer".

I've never played it personally, but to me that seems like they actually listened to their community instead of going "LALALALA NOT LISTENING IT'S YOUR FAULT THE GAME SUCKS NOT OURS F2P WITH A CASH SHOP LALALALA".

[Pawstruck]

Also, the game was pretty garbage too, so I'm not sure that helped!

Confirmed. So much potential, I was so excited and ready to forgive so many flaws... but the endless graphics issues (even on a high-end machine) combined with the bugs and server crashes put a quick end to WS for me.

[Regalbeast]

Wildstar failed and was aimed right at them at launch. And quality wasn't the issue, game was well done.

Hardcore MMO players is just a dead niche. WoW classic will be a massive failure in the end, aka past the launch hype. People just don't want crazy rep, comp farming. Or 40 man raiding. Does things are just from the past, they were fun sure, but completly disconnected of the current market.

It won't be a failure unless you expect it to reach actual Vanilla standards. I think 100k active players would be a massive success and is probably what it will boil down to after the initial rush is over.

[hulkgor]

New generation of gamers just aren't into the long effort, the grind, the working towards something, playing long sessions without a palpable reward.

It's more a matter of fast games, instant gratification, low time commitment. And that's fine.

So i doubt any sort of MMO will reach WoW's level, ever. It was a 'freak storm' of circumstances that lead to its success.

[cparle87]

I'm not sure what you mean, but FF14 was an absolute disaster at launch. Like, they couldn't even buy reviews off of IGN or Gamespot bad, even they slammed it. And instead of doing what 99% of failed MMOs do, blame the consumers and then go F2P to try and milk more shekels out of the 5 people that still care about the game, they admitted their game was trash, offered refunds and then went and remade the game almost entirely and now it's pretty successful with it's 3rd? expansion, and they never had to resort to going F2P like every other failed "WoW Killer".

I've never played it personally, but to me that seems like they actually listened to their community instead of going "LALALALA NOT LISTENING IT'S YOUR FAULT THE GAME SUCKS NOT OURS F2P WITH A CASH SHOP LALALALA".

Just look at yesterday with all the things. We had people not being able to find their characters and threatening legal action. People being multi charged on the store and threatening legal action. All the screaming and raging when the legacy buff wasn't working making soloing Wrath/Cata-ish stuff take longer. That particular thread reached like 80 pages in 4 hours before it was fixed.

The player base does not accept anything not being perfect according to their own wants. Just look at the vanilla community: all the different factions who want classic WoW to be this way or that, and dismissing anyone else's ideas as "not real vanilla".

I wouldn't listen to these forums to decide what color shirt to wear, let alone on how to design a game for my job.

[ro9ue]

People want the old feelings with new systems.

Developers are trying to just rehash old systems by slightly tweaking them and it's not going to work.


What I learned from playing a disgusting amount of EverQuest was that it didn't matter about any of the slight differences other MMOs offered. I was already deeply invested. It was going to take a revolutionary new game. It took WoW.

All of the MMOs we've seen since WoW have only been slight variations on this formula. People are now invested in WoW. You need to show them something so new and interesting that the last game they were playing instantly feels old to the point where they don't care about their /played. The excitement gets them to walk away and fully invest in the new thing.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't listen to these forums to decide what color shirt to wear, let alone on how to design a game for my job.

Oh, no doubt that 90% of feedback posted on the official forums or even here is absolute drivel, but they still should listen to the community in some regard. I'm sure by this point they can instantly recognize trash posts just by the formatting alone.

Also, you should wear a Pink shirt with the word BADMAN written on the back.