"The neckbeards aren't gone... they're WAITING."

[Fat Mac]

No more than releasing Ultima IV-V-VI would revive anything.

i would love an Ultima Online 2

[Everwake]

Well, reviving Ultima V would let me get a higher resolution Avatar...

"Thou shalt offer thine highest resolution avatar, or all thy avatars shalt be taken from thee."

I think I saw that sign hanging in Trinsic.

[voidillusion]

I'd honestly say that the total and utter failure of Wildstar is all the evidence anyone needs. It had all the popular features and buzzwords that the players love. Attunements! Hardcore! 40 man raids! Skill based combat! Constant update cycle!

Then after what, 4 months?, the 28 day content cycle was changed to be 3 months, 40 man raids were changed to 20 and the attunements were removed and my favorite, they literally cancelled Christmas. To repeat myself, the demographic they were targeting doesn't even exist, it was an illusion created by people screaming in an echo chamber about how amazing vanilla was (For the record, I loved Vanilla when it was current) and people thought they could sound like hardcore, grizzled WoW veterans sitting in the corner of a tavern with an eyepatch looking cool and badass if they just repeated what people were saying until they actually got what they wanted.

Then it turns out they didn't want it, lol. They thought they did, but they didn't.

Personally i couldnt keep playing wildstar because i just thought the gameplay and world was horrible, maybe more ppl felt the same, maybe it had nothing to do with the replication of those elements you speak of, or maybe it's a combination of both.

[cuafpr]

nope, games have tried and generally not lasted when they appeal to only the hard core players. unless a company is willing to accept a small user base and smaller profit of course.

[cparle87]

Oh, no doubt that 90% of feedback posted on the official forums or even here is absolute drivel, but they still should listen to the community in some regard. I'm sure by this point they can instantly recognize trash posts just by the formatting alone.

Also, you should wear a Pink shirt with the word BADMAN written on the back.

Hmm. I don't have one of those. TO TARGET!

OT: Yeah. But they're game designers, not garbage collectors. They don't get paid enough to sift through the refuse of whining and raging to find the posts with actual, thought out feedback.

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Umm what??? My guess is your unfamiliar with FF14 original release and how terrible it was... It was the community that stayed with the game despite if flaws that help shape what FF14 A Realm Reborn became.

No I wasn't one of them, but I recognize all the effort Yoshida and his team put into fixing the game. Yoshida continues to listen to the base of his game, and doesn't go the mass appeal. That is why in an age of dying MMOs they managed to make a profitable subscription based game. Even he stated as long as they have a solid base he doesn't mind not being in the #1 spot.

I'm not familiar with FF14. I'm talking about WoW, this forum, and these posters.

[Thimagryn]

It's been over 13 years. The Neckbeards are off having baby neckbeards. WoW is in the hands of newer generations now.

[Methodd]

Star Citizen's ridiculous crowdfunding numbers are good evidence to show that the market is very hungry for that type of game. However, no major studio will front the money required for something that big. Not even Blizzard can accomplish this, as seen from the issues stemming from Project Titan.

The other problem is that it's just too risky, and dev teams think anything below a million active subs is a failure. Too many try to cast too wide a net and end up grabbing no real core audience.

[MoanaLisa]

maybe due to mobile, but recent evidence has proven that PC gaming has finally surpassed console gaming once again. I don't think anything will ever catch up to mobile though.

It's not even the numbers so much. It's the market for gaming has fractured into so many platforms. A couple of people have mentioned FFXIV, which is a game I quite like. I just don't see in 2017 how the market will coalesce around an MMORPG like it did for World of Warcraft in its early years. That's why the game is something of a freak of nature. It deserves its success but it's unlikely to be replicated again.

This is why the old argument about WoW Killers and the notion that "just the right game will bring it all back" is a fantasy. Demographics aren't there any longer. And most games don't require that sort of buy-in and maintenance.

The one thing that might change about this over time is the plethora of online services, gaming and otherwise, that require a monthly payment of some sort. If some upcoming generation is introduced into that business model from the start then it might spill over into the MMO market. It seems unlikely though. MMO's generally are tailing off into the same sort of niche that RTS games have occupied for a while.

Would love to be proven wrong. Classic WoW will be good for Blizzard. It's not going to bring MMO gaming back though on its own.

[Deleted]

Wasn't W* going to revive the "hardcore" (whatever that means) MMO? That one worked well!

Actually i really enjoyed the mechanics of that game. What turned me off was the art style and character customisation. They tried too hard and exagerated too much (wow is already borderline exagerated). The UI was also really bad.

[Kokolums]

What people say they want and what they actually want are 2 different things.

What people say they want are top notch graphics and amazing design. But in truth, theyd trade cutting edge graphics for an in game community and social play. The problem with the MMO genre is EVERY game designer has abandoned the idea of putting the nurturing and growth of an in game community first. In fact, i think its been so long since anyone had tried that theyve forgotten how to do it. I mean look at legion. Blizzard decided to add some discord style chat and they cannot even grasp the idea that it should be fully integrated into wow itself and not the launcher. No one is going to want to tab in and out or switch windows to chat. Its stupid. But they cannot think it through. A HUGE concern i voiced about social is that they would corrupt the goal and focus on building NEW and complicated social features instead of just taking a step back and rebooting it back to where it was as a starting point, and the reason for it was that the were prioritizing buffing their resumes by building new features over building an in game community.

Its really simple. The first AAA MMO that comes along that makes an in game community the top priority is going to topple wow. But absolutely no one is doing it, so the genre is screwed.

When you lok at vanilla, the community aspect was up front and the game features were actually in the background. A big part of vanilla wow was building up your reputation on the server or that of your guilds. Guilds had a pecking order and THIS was the focus. Thats what is needed again because it makes everything MATTER. Why should i raid in legion? Some may think its fun but it doesnt really do much for you. Why should you raid in vanilla? Because you want to build up your reputation in the community.

[MoanaLisa]

Its really simple. The first AAA MMO that comes along that makes an in game community the top priority is going to topple wow. But absolutely no one is doing it, so the genre is screwed.

Explain how game design ends up controlling the behavior of a community that numbers in the hundreds of thousands if not millions.

[Tiwack]

Nah, they're busy grinding away in wow or one of their competitors. Fx Black Desert Online.

[Doomchicken]

What people say they want and what they actually want are 2 different things.

What people say they want are top notch graphics and amazing design. But in truth, theyd trade cutting edge graphics for an in game community and social play. The problem with the MMO genre is EVERY game designer has abandoned the idea of putting the nurturing and growth of an in game community first. In fact, i think its been so long since anyone had tried that theyve forgotten how to do it. I mean look at legion. Blizzard decided to add some discord style chat and they cannot even grasp the idea that it should be fully integrated into wow itself and not the launcher. No one is going to want to tab in and out or switch windows to chat. Its stupid. But they cannot think it through. A HUGE concern i voiced about social is that they would corrupt the goal and focus on building NEW and complicated social features instead of just taking a step back and rebooting it back to where it was as a starting point, and the reason for it was that the were prioritizing buffing their resumes by building new features over building an in game community.

Its really simple. The first AAA MMO that comes along that makes an in game community the top priority is going to topple wow. But absolutely no one is doing it, so the genre is screwed.

No one is doing it because the community itself doesn't want it. The only time the wow community was any "good" (and even that is debatable) was when they were basically forced to work together due to the complete lack of accessibility tools and now that said accessibility tools are common place across the entire mmo genre new games aren't going to commit suicide on launch by deliberately launching with none of it to cater to an extremely small minority on the misguided basis that it's going to make everything else by proxy magically great.

[Gutpile]

Did you have to wear a gas mask or had be showered in the last month?

[Marakesh]

Explain how game design ends up controlling the behavior of a community that numbers in the hundreds of thousands if not millions.

Of course an online social environment is greatly effected by how things are set up. Nothing's a 100% but that was the first thing I noticed about Nost - how the players behaved. Maybe, it was because it was a more mature playerbase, maybe but, its not hard to see why LFG in mmo's and OW's comp mode = strangers with no long term connection raging at each other. Stuck together on a server and need other people for quests and dungeons? You have incentive to play well with others.

While I'm not convinced about some next WoW killer making those kinds of sub numbers again, I do think the social part is the biggest issue and we see some mmo's in development that play off of that early mmo experience with newer designs and I could see a few doing quite well for themselves.

[Aliven]

Star Citizen's ridiculous crowdfunding numbers are good evidence to show that the market is very hungry for that type of game. However, no major studio will front the money required for something that big. Not even Blizzard can accomplish this, as seen from the issues stemming from Project Titan.

The other problem is that it's just too risky, and dev teams think anything below a million active subs is a failure. Too many try to cast too wide a net and end up grabbing no real core audience.

Star Citizen if good evidence the cults are still strong.

[-aiko-]

I think Asmongold and friends are too optimistic about this supposed hardcore crowd creeping in the shadows. I personally believe the majority of the 'hardcore' crowd from the past has either moved on, adapted to the new direction of MMOs, or simply don't have time to play like they used to even if they want to. I have no doubt that an active hardcore userbase exists, just not in the numbers a lot of these people seem to be implying. I could be wrong, of course, and hopefully Classic servers will put the discussion to an end once and for all.

There is a lot of hype around Classic, and while I have no doubt it will see a massively successful launch, it's the longterm health that will be interesting to watch. I think it'll maintain a small but sustainable crowd of players with the majority leaving but it could go many ways. I would imagine any AAA MMO that attempts to attract the hardcore crowd at the expense of the casual crowd would not be able to do much better.

Personally can't wait for classic, not just to play the game as it was again (for a while, at least) but to see how the community receives it.

[Orbusg]

I agree, but the OP tries to argue the demographic exists after all.

I'd say I'm unconvienced and the failure of Wildstar, while not being evidence, is at least a clue. WoW thrived not because it was hardcore, on the contrary, it managed to bring the MMO genre to the masses.

This is true.
When WoW came out people weren't praising it for being so hardcore or whatever, the hardcore everquest community was calling it super casual!
"What, you DON'T lose massive exp, even de-level, and drop your gear for other people to loot on death?"
"Who would want to play such kiddie garbage?"
And surprise of surprises, most people don't like sweeping, overly punishing mechanics for no apparent reason, including most everquest players.

[Charge me Doctor]

So... the implication here is that... there are people who will play a game that they are interested in when its released? Am i getting this right? What a crazy thought that no one ever thought.

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What people say they want and what they actually want are 2 different things.

Also that. It was proven numerous times in all fields

[Blamblam41]

I haven't forgotten Everquest. At all. Even Everquest couldn't remake itself a third time though and it never did the level of business that WoW did.

PC is no longer the dominant game platform it once was. It's still an important one but Asmongold is engaging in a rather dim version of the fantasy of imagining that the "NEXT BIG MMORPG MIGHT BE A WOW-KILLER". That's just not feasible.

Any game that gets that sort of market penetration is going to be on all platforms: phone, tablet, console, PC. That by itself is going to cause problems.

I truly hope that someone does put up a great AAA MMORPG someday. But the business it does is not going to be like what Blizzard did with World of Warcraft. That's done and was a freak thing at the time even though people didn't understand that then (or now apparently).

Classic WoW will be cool for what it is and I'm looking forward to it but after a few months it will be a niche thing. It will be a nice niche and there will be enough people around to keep it viable. But it's not going to take over the market.

*shrugs* The only real competitor to WoW is FFXIV and that's the closest thing I've found to a "great" AAA MMORPG.

Say what you want about the game, the design, whatever. The core values of the development team and the company are with the players that make the game possible. Themepark MMO to play on FF nostalgia or not, (like WoW playing on WC I, II, III nostalgia is any different) aside, their focus on the community has allowed it to flourish despite the trembling MMO market.

Blizzard is only self-interested. They show this with every balancing change, content patch, expansion releases and even in their other games. What they make only serves themselves and exists only to please themselves. In some forms yes that is what art is, but forsaking those that adore your art? That buy it? That's churlish and prideful at it's core. Sins Blizzard has repeated countlessly over the last decade.

There are problems with both games, problems I'm sure both companies will in time fix. My point being is whether or not those fixes are to limit the player experience or to embrace the player experience.