acceptable DPS for mm based on ilvl

[Not Againnn]

Ok, so some of my hunters in my raid team are interested in changing over to marksman, but their dps is rather low for their ilvl.

lowest is 930, highest is 960 and the 930 averages about 800-900k

the 960 does about a mil

does that seem right for their item level, or should they swap back BM and pray?

[Nythiz]

Ok, so some of my hunters in my raid team are interested in changing over to marksman, but their dps is rather low for their ilvl.

lowest is 930, highest is 960 and the 930 averages about 800-900k

the 960 does about a mil

does that seem right for their item level, or should they swap back BM and pray?

That is quite low. It's hard to say how much they should be doing, as it depends on fight and gear.
You could try checking warcraftlogs as you can select itemlevel brackets, difficulty and boss; but those numbers are also to be taken lightly.

Thing is, Marksman is not that easy to learn if you've not played it before or if it's been a while. You'll need a few weeks (generally) of active playing to really get the hang of the quirks and especially to get timings down on boss fights. BM is much less punishing in that way, which makes it the "easier" spec to play.

Should they go back to BM? If you're interrested in short term DPS increase, then probably yes. But MM will (few fights excluded perhaps), be the superior choice.
Assuming they get the hang of the spec, they should eventually see higher dps.

[Not Againnn]

That is quite low. It's hard to say how much they should be doing, as it depends on fight and gear.
You could try checking warcraftlogs as you can select itemlevel brackets, difficulty and boss; but those numbers are also to be taken lightly.

Thing is, Marksman is not that easy to learn if you've not played it before or if it's been a while. You'll need a few weeks (generally) of active playing to really get the hang of the quirks and especially to get timings down on boss fights. BM is much less punishing in that way, which makes it the "easier" spec to play.

Should they go back to BM? If you're interrested in short term DPS increase, then probably yes. But MM will (few fights excluded perhaps), be the superior choice.
Assuming they get the hang of the spec, they should eventually see higher dps.

any good resources i should point them towards? the discord heavily promotes icy-veins... not sure how i feel about that.

[Eapoe]

Ok, so some of my hunters in my raid team are interested in changing over to marksman, but their dps is rather low for their ilvl.

lowest is 930, highest is 960 and the 930 averages about 800-900k

the 960 does about a mil

does that seem right for their item level, or should they swap back BM and pray?

Need more info. What tier pieces and legos are they using? What fights are you discussing? Normal, heroic, mythic?
Overall I'd say that's pretty low.
This is me on mythic Imonar https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
As you can see I was 49 percentile for dps for my ilvl. I had a bad pull all around and know thats low for what I should be doing, but that's about 400-600k higher than your Hunters on a fight with a lot of downtime (depending on bridge clearing).
Icy veins is actually a great website with a lot of info. Covers stat priority, gear you should be looking for, opener sequence, normal rotation stuff, legos to use, etc. Hunter Discord itself is a great tool to use even though I've never personally been on it. I usually get my info from other Hunters I know that frequent the channel.
If they aren't using it, 2p t20 is still strong as fuck and I haven't been able to replace my 920 and 925 ilvl t20 pieces with 960+ gear I have gotten.

[Deleted]

any good resources i should point them towards? the discord heavily promotes icy-veins... not sure how i feel about that.

The icy-veins guide is a fine piece of work though.
They should be doing about 400-500k more I'd say.

[khair]

the discord heavily promotes icy-veins... not sure how i feel about that.

Why? What's wrong with it?

[Aesde]

Ok, so some of my hunters in my raid team are interested in changing over to marksman, but their dps is rather low for their ilvl.

lowest is 930, highest is 960 and the 930 averages about 800-900k

the 960 does about a mil

does that seem right for their item level, or should they swap back BM and pray?

1. Dude, you give almost zero information, IL means nothing. What leggos and trinkets do they have? What talents do they use? Do they have at least 2pc t20+4pc t21?

2. MM doesn't make any dps without boots and ring in ST or boots and belt in AOE. MM without right leggos < BM.

3. MM has much more room for fck up - usually green BM (your case) = grey MM.

[Rohip]

Go to raidbots.com and sim yourself; then you'll know your benchmark.

After that, save/upload your logs to warcraftlogs.com so you can look at them in detail. Your raid already may do this.

Then you can inspect that, use the 'ranking' function to see how you rank for your ilvl, or use tools like wowanalyzer.com which looks at your logs for you.

At 955 I sim around 1.6m for 'patchwerk' fights (stationary, so not wholly realistic for MM), and often get close to that. Having the legendary boots and ring/war belt helps a lot, as does t20 2-piece and t21 4-piece, but use raidbots to sim so you can compare yourself to theoretical dps output whatever your gear, and also compare gear there too.

Good luck.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and a vulnerable window weakaura is useful to help you learn the rhythm / relationship of arcane shot, aimed shot, windburst and marked shot.

wago.io is a good place to look.

[Nythiz]

any good resources i should point them towards? the discord heavily promotes icy-veins... not sure how i feel about that.

Icy Veins is fine. It's up to date and the info is accurate.
The downside of Icy Veins (but that goes for most guides that are actually worthwhile), is that there is so much information it can be overwhelming.

My 12 year experience in this game, where i've often been helping people improve their dps is that gear is often a tad overrated. If people do bad dps, 99% of the time the major contributor to dps is what buttons they press and how fast they press them, rather than the gear they wear.
You can have bad itemization that costs you 5-10% of your dps, but having a bad rotation or gaps between casts can easily cost you 20-50% of your dps.

Best thing for your hunters to learn first is the basic rotation, more specifically the following part:

1.2.1. Standard Rotation

• When you get a Marking Targets proc: Arcane Shot until *70 Focus → Marked Shot → Cast *1x Arcane Shot → 2x Aimed Shots.
• When you have no proc or Windburst: Cast Arcane Shot until ~105 Focus, then Aimed Shot to not Focus cap. Repeat as necessary until you get a proc and hope that it does not take too long.
• With Windburst: Cast Windburst into Marked Shot (only if you had a proc sitting around) > 2x Arcane Shots > 2x Aimed Shots.

Master the above first on dummies and you're 80% likely to improve your dps straight away. Regardless of what legendaries you have, what gems you have equipped and whether or not you have 150 crit or 200 mastery enchant on your rings. Execution is king in DPS improvement.
After that they should look at slightly more advanced stuff such as getting better at movement, learning the opener, learning the rotation during trueshot.
And obviously improve gear.

[shaunika123]

1. open warcraftlogs
2. open a single target fight (like garothi worldbreaker)
3. set spec to marksmanship hunter
4. set ilvl bracket to your ilvl
5. check top 100 logs
6. ???
7. profit :P

[Barnabas]

Ok, so some of my hunters in my raid team are interested in changing over to marksman, but their dps is rather low for their ilvl.

lowest is 930, highest is 960 and the 930 averages about 800-900k

the 960 does about a mil

does that seem right for their item level, or should they swap back BM and pray?

it all varies on how many crits you get.

[Nythiz]

1. Dude, you give almost zero information, IL means nothing. What leggos and trinkets do they have? What talents do they use? Do they have at least 2pc t20+4pc t21?

2. MM doesn't make any dps without boots and ring in ST or boots and belt in AOE. MM without right leggos < BM.

3. MM has much more room for fck up - usually green BM (your case) = grey MM.

1. Some of those are nice to know. But if you're in the bottom 20-30% DPS of what you could be doing at your level, it's an issue beyond gear and leggos and trinkets.
Some of those can have a big impact. But with 960 gear even without 2pT20 and 4pT21; without boots and ring, without optimal enchants and gems you can do more than 1 million dps.

2.
Are they a factor in having solid dps? Yes
Will you automatically "not make any dps" without them? Hell no

3.
Very true, and this is a massive DPS factor.
Bad rotation will have 5-10x more impact on your dps than whether you're using legendary boots or another legendary.

[Themanintobuildafire]

Icy Veins is fine. It's up to date and the info is accurate.
The downside of Icy Veins (but that goes for most guides that are actually worthwhile), is that there is so much information it can be overwhelming.

My 12 year experience in this game, where i've often been helping people improve their dps is that gear is often a tad overrated. If people do bad dps, 99% of the time the major contributor to dps is what buttons they press and how fast they press them, rather than the gear they wear.
You can have bad itemization that costs you 5-10% of your dps, but having a bad rotation or gaps between casts can easily cost you 20-50% of your dps.

Best thing for your hunters to learn first is the basic rotation, more specifically the following part:



Master the above first on dummies and you're 80% likely to improve your dps straight away. Regardless of what legendaries you have, what gems you have equipped and whether or not you have 150 crit or 200 mastery enchant on your rings. Execution is king in DPS improvement.
After that they should look at slightly more advanced stuff such as getting better at movement, learning the opener, learning the rotation during trueshot.
And obviously improve gear.

That MM rotation change is one of the reasons I went BM. I loved sidewinders over arcane shot.

I also got bored of MM. I am 2 leggos away from all BM...might go back to MM for a bit. I got the BiS leggos for both BM and MM...I find I can more easier get high numbers on BM...like 930 ilvl and 1.2-1.3mil. MM takes a lot more awareness and a good ping to pull off max dps.

[Rohip]

It's certainly easier to do consistent dps on BM, due to the mobility.

Your MM dps is likely to rise as you learn fights, and where and when to move, how best to fit in aimed shot pairs and trueshot. Random mechanics are more likely
to bring your dps down, as aimed shots get missed or can't be completed in the vulnerable window. With BM, you can keep full dps while dealing with mechanics.

But that's why I currently prefer MM, the variability makes it more fun, even if it can be frustrating.

[Guntherr]

My bm and mm dmg both SIM about 1.7m dps. I can do that as bm but as marks I'm 1.4m on varimathras for example. It boils down to me not having as good of a feel for the spec and not really so much about my gear. As mentioned have them SIM themselves and then see how close they are to their sim.

Maximizing trueshot dmg
Properly using vul window with patient sniper
Gear itemization

Just a few things that could easily increase dps when you start trying to improve.

[Araya]

Unlike pretty much every other class guide on Icy-Veins the Hunter one is kept up to date, with weekly updates at the minimium and is one of the few I would actually say is better then anywhere else for Hunter info.

[Guzrud]

1. Dude, you give almost zero information, IL means nothing. What leggos and trinkets do they have? What talents do they use? Do they have at least 2pc t20+4pc t21?

2. MM doesn't make any dps without boots and ring in ST or boots and belt in AOE. MM without right leggos < BM.

3. MM has much more room for fck up - usually green BM (your case) = grey MM.

Sorry, some of this is I think is coming from the right place but much of it is innacurate and just is not articulated very well to express what you are trying to convey.

Yes, Legendaries, Trinkets, Talents, Tier sets will all play a factor into your dps performance however people often overstate the value of these things over the ability to actually understand the rotation and how to use cooldowns properly to achieve the highest dps. There are often things said like your second point here about how " MM doesn't make any dps without boots and ring in ST or boots and belt in AOE. MM without right leggos < BM" Which is completely innacurate. To begin with with decent gear many(not all) MM hunters will sim better with Ring/Prydaz due to the way that the boots function and how they might just end up being a IL 1000 set of boots depending on if you get an additional Trueshot you can use effectively. The great thing about prydaz is that you get 100% of the benefit of it 100% of the time with a huge survival increase. There are obviously always going to be gearing and talent adjustments that you could make that would increase your dps by a very small margin and making those adjustment is really important.

The real reason that people tend to struggle when the swap from BM to MM though is they dont fully understand how MM damage happens and what they need to do. One thing that is lost on many people when they start playing the spec is the MM hunter is 100% and execute class that does a huge portion of its damage from 20% to 0. Playing a BM hunter is basically hit every CD and ability on CD and go Ham 100% of the time. There a small things you can do to increase dps but for the most part just hitting everything all the time will usually yield solid results. As MM this will aboslutely demolish your dps in a fight. Let me show you what I mean.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=15

This is a great log of me be so bad at the game its embarressing and still doing really solid dps just because I nailed the 2 most important things in the fight almost perfectly as an MM hunter...

1. The Open
2. The Execute

My performance on this fight was so bad outside those 2 times and I still did 1.8 million dps because of how MM dps works. I only used 2 trueshots in a 4.5 minute fight which is really poor. I used the wrong legendaries, I used the wrong trinket and still put up an orange parse on the fight because I nailed that open and that execute phase.

The open is usually quite easy there is quite a bit of information out there concerning the open but the finish is just as important. You need to have a very good understanding of bosses Time till death so you can save your last trueshot to get it out with 30 stacks of Bullseye. If you fail to do this your dps will be really much much lower than the guy who is making sure to hit this window of damage.

At the end of the fight with 30 Stacks of Bullseye you are prob around 60-75% and 50-60% crit hit damage with your trueshot up. Couple that with a potion/berserking/concordance/tier 2 traits/lust etc.....your dps in that last 20% of the fight is bananas and if you fail to grasp that concept and account for it your dps is going to look very poor in relation someone who does understand this.

People try to make MM out to be this crazy hard compllicated spec and it is anything but. Our out of TS rotation is so boring and repetative it is laughable that people consider it "hard' when its really just like the same 5-6 globals in a row with 3/4 of the 6 being instant casts. If people would just invest some personal time in our discord, which has some links to some really nice guides from Azor that he spent tons of time one they will improve leaps and bounds. Our discord just like any other does not appreciate univested people who want a one size fits all response to the same 7 questions we hear every day about talents and gear and legendaries etc. However there are tons of people who are willing to help out if people are invested in their own improvement. But at the end of the day if you dont take your improvement and evaulations seriously why would you expect anyone else to?

[Aesde]

Sorry, some of this is I think is coming from the right place but much of it is innacurate and just is not articulated very well to express what you are trying to convey.

Yes, Legendaries, Trinkets, Talents, Tier sets will all play a factor into your dps performance however people often overstate the value of these things over the ability to actually understand the rotation and how to use cooldowns properly to achieve the highest dps. There are often things said like your second point here about how " MM doesn't make any dps without boots and ring in ST or boots and belt in AOE. MM without right leggos < BM" Which is completely innacurate.

What a pity, that's I read this really hilarious post only today.

So pls link your ST log without ring, or AOE log without belt and boots.

[Azortharion]

What's the point of that exercise? You can just run sim with and without these Legendaries and see that the difference is not "playable" vs "unplayable", or something. It's not like the BiS leggos have some sort of value in practice that they don't do in sims. The difference should be roughly the same. If the rest of your gear is in a good spot, you can get orange parses on Mythic without a single BiS leggo, which is basically as good as it gets in terms of just raw damage. And Soul of the Huntmaster is the worst survivability legendary you can wear, so it doesn't have some "non-simmable" benefit there as well.

[Aesde]

What's the point of that exercise? You can just run sim with and without these Legendaries and see that the difference is not "playable" vs "unplayable", or something. It's not like the BiS leggos have some sort of value in practice that they don't do in sims. The difference should be roughly the same. If the rest of your gear is in a good spot, you can get orange parses on Mythic without a single BiS leggo, which is basically as good as it gets in terms of just raw damage. And Soul of the Huntmaster is the worst survivability legendary you can wear, so it doesn't have some "non-simmable" benefit there as well.

What's the point of your remarks? If you do your best dps with Pridaz and Pants, because otherwise you die, it's not my problem.