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  1. #1
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    Some reasons of PvP imbalance

    I jumped into it... again, because it's the time to wait for the new expansion and do some catch ups.

    So currently I'm farming AB reputation as an arms warrior and I have to say, that one of the reasons of PvP imbalance is the individual sustain of certain classes, specs.

    It's mostly about self-healing. How is that possible to design a class that depends on external healing or else it just goes to zero hp over time, and on the other side there are classes that can handle the same situation for unlimited time.

    I simply can't allow myself as an arms warrior to go into an 1v1 situation with any other class/spec. I always have to have someone else (even an other dps) by my side to have a chance in e.g. a defending situation, or else the odds of success are zero, because I don't have spammable self-heal, abilities to escape the situation or cc the shit out of the opponent. Instead I have 2 more single target dps buttons to press, floated with abilities and awkward combos to build up before I could press out some dps and have minimal sustain.

    It's not supposed to be a whining thread, I'm just baffled by the fact, how different amount of sustain some classes can have at the same dps output. You literally have to purge 2x 3x the amount of health bar that they actually have.

    This will be somehow different in BfA? I'll be able to allow myself to enter into an 1v1 situation as an arms warrior?

  2. #2
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    Well some classes actually need to self healing in order to function. For example if you remove the self healing from an affliction warlock, he will just die a few seconds after barley applying his dots.

  3. #3
    Arms is a fair bit tankier than the other melee classes. You should have strong sustain in your Soul of the Slaughter artifact trait, and you have good defences with Defensive Stance and Die by the Sword.

    But like other expansions, Arms is still a LOT better with a pocket healer.
    "Leave your personal feedback, don't try to convince them that "everyone" hates something." - Ion Hazzikostas
    It's actually Wowhead, if I quoted directly from Ion the signature would drag out too long.

  4. #4
    pvp balance discussions should never be based on battlegrounds... so dont :P

  5. #5
    Agree that the self-heal of non-healer specs is totally broken.

  6. #6
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    You can allow yourself as an arms warrior to 1v1 other people, especially in a BG.

    There's nothing design-wise that causes an arms warrior to lose to every single person.

    Some classes are tankier, some classes are squishier. Squishier classes have self healing and/or mobility to keep themselves alive.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appelgren View Post
    pvp balance discussions should never be based on battlegrounds... so dont :P
    Okay. How many actually play rated PvP? Arena? RBG? I think it's not a wild guess to say, that most of instanced PvP happens in battlegrounds, and mostly random battlegrounds than rated ones.

    So the majority bases their opinions, gets their experience from random battlegrounds. PvP templates work the same way in any kind of instanced PvP btw.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sencha View Post
    Agree that the self-heal of non-healer specs is totally broken.
    I personally would remove it completely from non-healer specs in PvP. Use their cc, defensives, mobility etc. to stay alive for a while.

  8. #8
    you have interrupts and stuns as well as multiple gap closers in order to be able to 1v1 someone. you can completely turn off melee as well as spell reflect a set of dots or a burst on a caster which is devastating as well.

    maybe youre not playing your class correctly?

    also, you're an arms warrior, you have "very mortal strike" (sharpen blades) to reduce healing done which you can time with someone's self healing, I mean cmon

    edit: just to prove my point: you can disarm any melee during burst in order to stay alive. in instanced pvp DHs basically dont heal up even if they have morph up, you can sharpen blades dispersion from spriests (lol a warrior would never lose to an spriest anyway but w/e), you can reflect any caster's burst as its easy to tell when they are bursting (AP, icy veins, chaos bolt, incarnation and so foward), you can disarm a frost DK if he icebounds in order to keep him from death striking you... I mean, you literally have counter to -almost- everything
    these kind of cry "but there is this one thing I cant do" is what made pvp so boring during legion, thankgod the dev team realized it and is back to giving classes their identities back, because damn it is boring when everyone has to be exactly the same otherwise someone cries
    Last edited by Nuba; 2018-02-01 at 06:47 AM.

  9. #9
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    All dps should have self sustain. More outplay potential that way. Sorry blizzard took your second wind.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    you have interrupts and stuns as well as multiple gap closers in order to be able to 1v1 someone. you can completely turn off melee as well as spell reflect a set of dots or a burst on a caster which is devastating as well.

    maybe youre not playing your class correctly?

    also, you're an arms warrior, you have "very mortal strike" (sharpen blades) to reduce healing done which you can time with someone's self healing, I mean cmon

    edit: just to prove my point: you can disarm any melee during burst in order to stay alive. in instanced pvp DHs basically dont heal up even if they have morph up, you can sharpen blades dispersion from spriests (lol a warrior would never lose to an spriest anyway but w/e), you can reflect any caster's burst as its easy to tell when they are bursting (AP, icy veins, chaos bolt, incarnation and so foward), you can disarm a frost DK if he icebounds in order to keep him from death striking you... I mean, you literally have counter to -almost- everything
    these kind of cry "but there is this one thing I cant do" is what made pvp so boring during legion, thankgod the dev team realized it and is back to giving classes their identities back, because damn it is boring when everyone has to be exactly the same otherwise someone cries
    Yeah, because other classes have no tools to counter the warrior, just 1 dps button and 1 heal button, and they are also unable to predict the moves of a warrior, becasue they are braindead... And a warrior can also wake up from death or hide behind an impenetrable bubble to finish what he started.

    The whole thing goes down to duels (but with templates on). You can struggle for a while, yes, but in the end you lose, because you are out of cd-s and your hp goes down slowly, inevitably, while most of other classes have more cc and passive/active self-healing. You lose the fight of sustain.

    Warriors have many tools to handle situations, yes, but they are useless when they have the same effective health, same dps output (continuous template balancing), but miss a reliable ability to bring their hp back.

    One spec can stay alive by itself, while an other is designed to have a pocket healer in order to function properly. But that's 2v1 already.

  11. #11
    Just reroll Horde and you will never be alone in a random battleground.

  12. #12
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    I agree with your overall point op but arms warrior has some self sustain and more than some other specs, its wrong the amount of self sustain some specs have and just outright absurd that affliction is still nerf free.

    Problem is the whole situation is such a mess we actually need the sustain because otherwise dps are near useless due to the nature of how tanks and healers currently work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Explicit Teemo Nudes View Post
    Just reroll Horde and you will never be alone in a random battleground.
    Its extremely frustratingly common for me to join bgs with 0 healers on horde and 1-3 on alliance. (In non rbgs ofc)
    Last edited by mmoc1448478633; 2018-02-01 at 09:12 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonol View Post
    Okay. How many actually play rated PvP? Arena? RBG? I think it's not a wild guess to say, that most of instanced PvP happens in battlegrounds, and mostly random battlegrounds than rated ones.

    So the majority bases their opinions, gets their experience from random battlegrounds. PvP templates work the same way in any kind of instanced PvP btw.
    Sure. The majority of people who play hockey do so in random leagues consisting of mostly ok or average skilled players.

    The best of the best plays in the olympics and they are a few elite athletes compared to everyone playing in the world.

    Yeah....

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appelgren View Post
    Sure. The majority of people who play hockey do so in random leagues consisting of mostly ok or average skilled players.

    The best of the best plays in the olympics and they are a few elite athletes compared to everyone playing in the world.

    Yeah....
    Yeah... your example is bad, because in a BG (or any kind of PvP) not only hockey players face against each other. In WoW it's like putting hockey players, football players, boxers, baseball players, basketball players, snooker players, chess players etc. together into the same place. You know, different classes with different tools, abilities, even different roles.

    Try harder next time.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonol View Post
    Yeah... your example is bad, because in a BG (or any kind of PvP) not only hockey players face against each other. In WoW it's like putting hockey players, football players, boxers, baseball players, basketball players, snooker players, chess players etc. together into the same place. You know, different classes with different tools, abilities, even different roles.

    Try harder next time.
    And your example of "imbalance" is not being able to kill people 1v1 because you're bad at the game.

    Try harder next time.

  16. #16
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    You should be able to kill at least 50% of all other DPS specs if you and your opponent are equally skilled. Some specs are harder to kill than others, obviously. If your skill is higher than the opponents your win chance should be around 70% or 80%. If you struggle to kill mages for example you just have to step up your game (learn what to reflect, when to charge, when to use battle cry etc.).

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonesDeLarge View Post
    You should be able to kill at least 50% of all other DPS specs if you and your opponent are equally skilled. Some specs are harder to kill than others, obviously. If your skill is higher than the opponents your win chance should be around 70% or 80%. If you struggle to kill mages for example you just have to step up your game (learn what to reflect, when to charge, when to use battle cry etc.).
    Agreed! Arms is pretty descent in bg's at least if you know what you are doing. If you do, you can ben a complete wreckingball. I dont need no healer or buddy dps to fight 1 enemy. Arms doesnt have much healing besides the artifact trait but i survived quiete a while with def stance, rallying cry and die by the sword.. Also you've got fear and a stun (if chosen) and heroic leap to peace it.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krassz View Post
    And your example of "imbalance" is not being able to kill people 1v1 because you're bad at the game.

    Try harder next time.
    Quote Originally Posted by BonesDeLarge View Post
    You should be able to kill at least 50% of all other DPS specs if you and your opponent are equally skilled. Some specs are harder to kill than others, obviously. If your skill is higher than the opponents your win chance should be around 70% or 80%. If you struggle to kill mages for example you just have to step up your game (learn what to reflect, when to charge, when to use battle cry etc.).
    We can run the circles around player skill level and chances, but the thing is, that even on equal skill level, a class can counter an other one or bring utility that other can't (like in a 2v2 situation one of the enemies are a dk, the other dies and the dk can resurrect his partner mid-combat, a warrior can't do this).

    The whole thing is about a fundamentally broken pvp class design from the start, where it is possible to run into a class that counters yours. Class counters shouldn't exist in pvp at all, even if it requires less buttons or completely different skillset/mechanisms.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonol View Post
    We can run the circles around player skill level and chances, but the thing is, that even on equal skill level, a class can counter an other one or bring utility that other can't (like in a 2v2 situation one of the enemies are a dk, the other dies and the dk can resurrect his partner mid-combat, a warrior can't do this).

    The whole thing is about a fundamentally broken pvp class design from the start, where it is possible to run into a class that counters yours. Class counters shouldn't exist in pvp at all, even if it requires less buttons or completely different skillset/mechanisms.
    The strive for class balance is what ultimately lead to pruning.

    The thing is, you can't have wildly different variety within classes toolkits and have 100% balance, that's just impossible.

    If all everyone had was a basic rotation, you can achieve good class balance because all you need to do is adjust numbers.

    Lets look at league of legends, one of the most popular and successful esports games.

    Champions have counters, teams have counters, etc. It's naturally going to because every single champion has a unique design and toolkit. That doesn't stop it from being one of the most successful esports games. The only way you can have a perfectly balanced game is by making it a number war.

    So what do you want, a game where you just run up and mash a rotation on each other because it can be more balanced?

    And to be honest, you can beat counters if you're good enough. You're talking about BGs, I RARELY see an above-average player in there.
    Last edited by Krusza; 2018-02-07 at 12:26 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonol View Post
    We can run the circles around player skill level and chances, but the thing is, that even on equal skill level, a class can counter an other one or bring utility that other can't (like in a 2v2 situation one of the enemies are a dk, the other dies and the dk can resurrect his partner mid-combat, a warrior can't do this).

    The whole thing is about a fundamentally broken pvp class design from the start, where it is possible to run into a class that counters yours. Class counters shouldn't exist in pvp at all, even if it requires less buttons or completely different skillset/mechanisms.
    WoW PvP isn't for you then. I mean, it has always been like this. And I personally wouldn't PvP in WoW at all if all classes/specs had the same tools. Would be boring af.

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