Arcane Mage Rework in BfA

[The Archmage]

Ultimately, although I'm trying to, I simply don't understand why you hate AE so much. I am profoundly sorry on a personal level, but for my own selfish enjoyment of my absolute favorite spec.... I hope you don't get what you want here.

I think it comes from the level of content you actively do on your mage mate. As you can see, many more speak against the system instead of in favour, and that is mainly because it creates more problems than not in all the content that matters.

But, again, i can see why "content that matters" is subject to different interpretations: you consider important handiness, not having extra buttons and world stuff, which to me it's trivial; i consider high end raiding, high end m+ and such as meaningful, cause the rest is easy no matter what or how many buttons i need to press.

I guess we'll have to settle for this

[Coconut]

I think it comes from the level of content you actively do on your mage mate. As you can see, many more speak against the system instead of in favour, and that is mainly because it creates more problems than not in all the content that matters.

But, again, i can see why "content that matters" is subject to different interpretations: you consider important handiness, not having extra buttons and world stuff, which to me it's trivial; i consider high end raiding, high end m+ and such as meaningful, cause the rest is easy no matter what or how many buttons i need to press.

I guess we'll have to settle for this

It's about play style preference more than anything else. I've done (and occasionally still do) my fair share of challenging content, but for me the fun was always the part where you react to stuff. I never felt a need for more buttons or a complex rotation in order to enjoy the game. On the other hand, clunky ones never failed to annoy me. If I regret a loss of complexity, it has to do with utility spells like Remove Curse or the short term tanking capabilities of Mirror Image, not with the main single target or AoE rotation.

I think your majority is illusory, though. High end players, theorycrafters and armchair designers are more likely to prowl forums and push their ideas than regular players who simply enjoy their spec. The game shouldn't be designed with only people who like complex rotations in mind. After all, you don't see me going around other class forums trying to make their specs easier, I'm merely defending the one I already chose and enjoy. Many others like me don't even know this discussion is taking place, but they may well hate the changes you propose if they take them by surprise and become a reality. It makes me wonder why you even style yourself around this spec if you disagree so fundamentally with its core identity.

[The Archmage]

I think your majority is illusory, though. High end players, theorycrafters and armchair designers are more likely to prowl forums and push their ideas than regular players who simply enjoy their spec. The game shouldn't be designed with only people who like complex rotations in mind. After all, you don't see me going around other class forums trying to make their specs easier, I'm merely defending the one I already chose and enjoy. Many others like me don't even know this discussion is taking place, but they may well hate the changes you propose if they take them by surprise and become a reality. It makes me wonder why you even style yourself around this spec if you disagree so fundamentally with its core identity.

Uhm, not really. People have been complaining about the nature of Arcane's AoE for quite some time, and Arcane Explosion has been criticized a lot in the past. Legion brought its efficiency insanely up, resulting in much less nuisance since people often confuse effectiveness with a good and well designed system, which is not the case here: while other specs (like you correctly said) have tools that have a short range, non of them force a ranged class to be alongside melee with the problem associated with it.

You contest my disliking of Arcane's reliance on a melee range instant cast tool because you enjoy reactionary gameplay, but it is out of place since melees are considered to be the ones that carry with them instant cast abilities and reaction-based gameplays. Ranged (and expecially casters) are all about pre-planning and pre-positioning, and Arcane even more so then others, since all its toolkit revolves around minimizing movement for the better part of the fight and long, hard hittin casts. Except when we need to AoE, then we become melee players that spam all instants like crazy and completely on the move, losing the "caster" feel the class should provide and enforce.

You like this uniqueness, because you find it fun, handy and it allows you to use less buttons. I think it's old, unintuitive, odd and completely out of place in a spellcaster toolkit for a main/rotational ability.

[cafecito820]

If they will steal more stuff from d3 then give us Archon. A massive cooldown instead of overpowered

You've seen Shadow Priests, right? Void Form changes your base abilities and stacks higher and higher the longer you're in it. The goal of the build is to stay in Void Form as long as you can, and to minimize downtime between Void Form uses to push the buff higher and higher.

Sound familiar?

[Tyze]

You've seen Shadow Priests, right? Void Form changes your base abilities and stacks higher and higher the longer you're in it. The goal of the build is to stay in Void Form as long as you can, and to minimize downtime between Void Form uses to push the buff higher and higher.

Sound familiar?

Yeah but screw the old "build and spend" mechanic. I just want to look sick and empower all of my spells Maybe sounds lazy, but in Archon all damage is increased and spells gets empowered, changing spell effects etc haha.

But I guess ur right

But honestly, having Disintegrate would be amazing

[Zamfix]

even if you COULD, that talent would force you to suddenly start channeling.

There's no reason you'd have to channel it to gain the effect, it could just be a buff that restores mana.

[cafecito820]

Yeah but screw the old "build and spend" mechanic. I just want to look sick and empower all of my spells Maybe sounds lazy, but in Archon all damage is increased and spells gets empowered, changing spell effects etc haha.

But I guess ur right

But honestly, having Disintegrate would be amazing

Yea, that whole stack-building nonsense just doesn't work well in WoW. It is atrocious for WQs, and just doesn't work well in raids because of the insane (pun intended) ramp up time. Heroism/Bloodlust is halfway over by the time you're doing good damage.

But I see no reason that there couldn't be a 1m cooldown in WoW that basically gave you Archon Form. I'm down!

[Coconut]

snip

I'm not sure what you find most problematic, the lack of complexity or the range. I disagree about both, but they are very different discussion points.

You say instant casts and staying in melee is out of place for a caster. I say it's adding gameplay diversity. Frost and Fire already rely on ground targeted spells for AoE, as well as the short range frontal cones and some form of ranged cleaves. They both have to create circumstances where the ground spell becomes instant cast. Hunters use frontal cones and ranged cleaves. Affliction relies on spreading DoTs and Seed of Corruption, which is basically an AoE equivalent of UA. Balance has both DoTs and ground targeted effect. Shadow I don't know, some abomination, but also uses DoTs. In fact, the reason NT was reworked after MoP was to move Arcane away from the multi-dotting gameplay that was representative of other classes. What you propose is terminating an AoE rotation that is fairly unique among casters because you want to homogenize all ranged classes to AoE from 40yds.

You say the short range Arcane Explosion is out of place, but spells like Frost Nova, Holy Nova, Psychic Scream and Jade Wind (there may be more that slip my mind, plus the cones I already mentioned) follow the same principle. And on the other end of the spectrum, we have melee classes with long ranged AoE effects: Death and Decay at 30yds, Cannonball Barrage at 35yds, Exploding Keg at 40yds, Ravager at 40yds... do you consider these to go against class fantasy as well? It feels like a really odd think to get hung up on.

Like I said before, in solo play the mobs are close to you anyway, so it feels counter-intuitive to ground-target an effect that has to end up on top of you anyway, not to mention you are limiting yourself to that radius if you plan to kite. Playing frost, I would have to use frozen orb and then blink through it or run around it with the mobs to make sure I get the maximum effect. And then I better hope the cooldown cleared before I move to the next pack, otherwise I have to hard cast Blizzard. The rotation may feel good with a pack of raid trash or in the challenge built especially for it, but in regular play it's the very definition of clunky.

And in Mythic + and CMs, where trash mobs are often pulled behind a corner to make sure they are clumped together and the space is mostly tight anyway, AE also feels very natural... not to mention staying relatively close to the tank is actually beneficial, as you're trying to move ahead as fast as you can, there's no point in lagging a full 40yds behind just because you are "ranged".

You still didn't manage to convince me that AE is even remotely out of place anywhere outside a big ass raid room with tanks holding the adds away from you, and even there there are situations where mechanics force you close to the adds anyway. I respect your preferences, of course, but I feel that there are already enough specs out there that cater to them. There's no harm in ONE caster having a short to medium range spammable AoE.

[The Archmage]

You say the short range Arcane Explosion is out of place, but spells like Frost Nova, Holy Nova, Psychic Scream and Jade Wind (there may be more that slip my mind, plus the cones I already mentioned)

None of these abilities have nearly the same importance in terms of functionality as AE. Those are all situational spells that allow their class to perform SOME particular effect, tied to a cooldown. The same goes for DB, Cone of Cold, ecc...

If you think you can honestly compare those spells to AE and to the role the latter has in Arcane's AoE aswell has into the overall functionality of the spec, there is little else we can talk about.

I'll stick to hope that they change this horrible system, because from my experience of this game, it is heavily contributing to the general feel of oddity and unviability of the spec that leaves it majorly unplayed when compared to the other specs. Something needs to change in how the spec plays out, and Blizzard seems to agree based on what we can see from the Alpha changes they made. Here's hoping for lasting improvements.

[Kyriani]

I like the arcane explosion + arcane barrage playstyle. With that said I've been a proponent for years of having an optional way to aoe at range either via a glyph back when glyphs were more than cosmetic or via a talent. I like the idea of Arcane explosion working like Supernova in that it casts on you or on a target. Perhaps it could be changed to function that way and the Supernova talent could enhance it? Or something else entirely. Overall I would not want to lose the playstyle of AE+Barrage we currently have but I would like an option for arcane to be able to aoe at range.

[Deleted]

I'd be more ok with AE if it gave us 75% damage reduction for 3 seconds, I don't like being on the chopping block in melee

That would be unwise, as it would make mages the best soakbots in the game. In the sense of just stand there and press AE. That could perhaps be circumvented by you only getting the reduction if you actually hit several enemies, I still think it would be very abusable.

[davesignal]

I'll tell you a little secret: arcane mages are already one of the best soakers in the game. Greater Invisibility is a universal 60% DR, Prismatic Barrier is another 25% magic DR on top of that in addition to being a sizable absorb shield, and Ice Block is a thing.

We're not going to beat rogues, obviously, but short of those guys and tanks we're one of the best.

[Charge me Doctor]

I like the arcane explosion + arcane barrage playstyle. With that said I've been a proponent for years of having an optional way to aoe at range either via a glyph back when glyphs were more than cosmetic or via a talent. I like the idea of Arcane explosion working like Supernova in that it casts on you or on a target. Perhaps it could be changed to function that way and the Supernova talent could enhance it? Or something else entirely. Overall I would not want to lose the playstyle of AE+Barrage we currently have but I would like an option for arcane to be able to aoe at range.

I would like a talent like mana bomb/ AE rune, that you throw into a pack of enemies and it explodes every 1 second for some duration

[Macaquerie]

I would like a talent like mana bomb/ AE rune, that you throw into a pack of enemies and it explodes every 1 second for some duration

Sounds like Prismatic Crystal.

[Coconut]

None of these abilities have nearly the same importance in terms of functionality as AE. Those are all situational spells that allow their class to perform SOME particular effect, tied to a cooldown. The same goes for DB, Cone of Cold, ecc...

Yeah, except Holy Nova which is basically identical, with the added bonus of healing...

Look, there are only five core ways of dealing AoE:

- Novas, which you spam or trigger close to the mobs.
- Frontal cones and beams, which you have to direct with your camera.
- Ground-targeting effects, which you have to place on the ground.
- Multi-dotting, where you have to cycle targets.
- Cleaving off the main target, where you basically do the same thing, maybe with some extra buttons.

All AoE abilities and rotations are a combination of these types of effects, and they all have heir problems. The first two are generally short ranged (when they're not, they risk pulling extra trash). Ground targeting is clunky. Multi-dotting isn't for everyone. Cleaving just feels the same as single target. And there's only so much you can do if you want to preserve class and spec identity. Arcane uses a Nova effect, which works with the class fantasy of the mage being a conduit of raw energies. It's close range, but so what? Death Knights have a 40yds AoE effect. Demon Hunters need to channel their Eye Beam. Exceptions from the rules is what makes classes feel unique.

That being said, I have nothing against a talent that allows Arcane to AoE from afar, in order to satisfy people like you and more importantly to be used in fights where staying close to the melee becomes a problem for the raid, not just yourself. That's all.

[davesignal]

Holy Nova doesn't heal any more.

Also, ground-targeted effects are the devil. I'd rather stand in melee range and spam an instant than have to deal with ground targeting.

[Deleted]

Sure, but having a 75% DR with no CD would be better than current feint, which is already way too powerful.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, except Holy Nova which is basically identical, with the added bonus of healing...

Look, there are only five core ways of dealing AoE:

- Novas, which you spam or trigger close to the mobs.
- Frontal cones and beams, which you have to direct with your camera.
- Ground-targeting effects, which you have to place on the ground.
- Multi-dotting, where you have to cycle targets.
- Cleaving off the main target, where you basically do the same thing, maybe with some extra buttons.

All AoE abilities and rotations are a combination of these types of effects, and they all have heir problems. The first two are generally short ranged (when they're not, they risk pulling extra trash). Ground targeting is clunky. Multi-dotting isn't for everyone. Cleaving just feels the same as single target. And there's only so much you can do if you want to preserve class and spec identity. Arcane uses a Nova effect, which works with the class fantasy of the mage being a conduit of raw energies. It's close range, but so what? Death Knights have a 40yds AoE effect. Demon Hunters need to channel their Eye Beam. Exceptions from the rules is what makes classes feel unique.

That being said, I have nothing against a talent that allows Arcane to AoE from afar, in order to satisfy people like you and more importantly to be used in fights where staying close to the melee becomes a problem for the raid, not just yourself. That's all.

Holy isn't a dps spec so I'm not sure how Holy Nova compares to AE in this context.

[Charge me Doctor]

Sounds like Prismatic Crystal.

Prismatic crystal used to be a cooldown, i propose alternative way of AoEing. You could balance it in different ways, having multiple stacks of it, like RoP, or have a 10-20 seconds cooldown so you have to use them back-to-back.

I also really like prysmatic cristal combustion spread. I could even fap to that

[Coconut]

Holy isn't a dps spec so I'm not sure how Holy Nova compares to AE in this context.

Who cares that it doesn't top meters? It's mechanically identical in how it deals damage. The main argument against AE was that it didn't fit the class fantasy of a ranged caster, that's what I was trying to counter.

[Deleted]

I thought the main argument against AE was, that having to stand in melee as a ranged pulls ranged mechanics into melee and kills people, which doesn't really apply to healers as they usually just don't do aoe damage on dangerous fights anyway.