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  1. #41
    None of the buffs mentioned are DPS decreases; this is as hyperbolic as the Pepe example.

    You and I have been having entirely separate conversations from the beginning. I tried to explain that, you refuse to acknowledge it. Measuring how much damage is increased by during cooldowns and how much damage is done during cooldowns are entirely separate (yet related) concepts of measurement, not necessarily dependent on one another. Like I said before, I understand the point you're making, and I'm not arguing with it. I'm making a completely different point - it doesn't really matter how much damage any particular cooldown increases damage by, when the point was to show how much damage is still done outside of said cooldowns, to refute the point that "all damage is done during BC".

    Despite the lack of context, the last point you quoted remains true, and what I alluded to in my last post - Battle Cry itself is not a very powerful cooldown. 100% crit doesn't do all that much on it's own; it's the combination effect with Unrivaled Strength, Bloodbath, Avatar, and guaranteed Enrage/Frothing which makes the cumulative burst as powerful as you've repeatedly pointed out.

    Like I said, these are wholly separate concepts, which do not impede on one another. There's absolutely no reason to sit here and have a pissing contest over it.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    You and I have been having entirely separate conversations from the beginning. I tried to explain that, you refuse to acknowledge it. Measuring how much damage is increased by during cooldowns and how much damage is done during cooldowns are entirely separate (yet related) concepts of measurement, not necessarily dependent on one another. Like I said before, I understand the point you're making, and I'm not arguing with it. I'm making a completely different point - it doesn't really matter how much damage any particular cooldown increases damage by, when the point was to show how much damage is still done outside of said cooldowns, to refute the point that "all damage is done during BC".
    You are attacking a strawman of your own making - or possibly an hyperbole that people know is an hyperbole.

    When OP wrote "might as well not dps" - you shouldn't take that as a literal statement, that needed to be refuted.
    The main point was about the burstiness tied to battlecry; and that point remains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Despite the lack of context, the last point you quoted remains true, and what I alluded to in my last post - Battle Cry itself is not a very powerful cooldown. 100% crit doesn't do all that much on it's own; it's the combination effect with Unrivaled Strength, Bloodbath, Avatar, and guaranteed Enrage/Frothing which makes the cumulative burst as powerful as you've repeatedly pointed out.
    You seem to forget that the quote claimed that even the combination wasn't even strong compared to other buffs.

    And unrivaled Strength, and guaranteed Enrage and Frothing are due to Battlecry; that is part of what makes it a strong buff - and what makes the dps-increase due to Battlecry much larger than for other buffs (even if those buffs for other classes also often have other effects making them stronger).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotmor View Post
    But when we are talking about M+ and leveling/world questing, its absolutely "antifun". I think that Blizzard should increase the damage outside of bursts phase and decrease it in BC (as it was in wotlk, recklessness was on high cd).
    Whether it is fun or antifun depends on the player.

    I'm pretty sure lots of players enjoy destroying world quest mobs (and trash packs in dungeons) during battlecry, and ignore the wet-noodle-dps.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    I think its because most people forget the whole "Overall M+ damage" about the argument

    Ignoring the argument about that if the OP is talking about the "feeling" then i dont think how anyone cant agree...

    I mean you pop everything and vaporize trash on a Fortfied 15+ dungeon and the next pack you rotation,rotation, WW, rampage, rotation rotation..woo!

    And then you log onto your DH alt without even proper legendaries and simply because the spec at its certain form is how it is, its the same on every pack pretty much, which is simply fun.

    Same with the DK and i am pretty sure WW monk is the same, and a couple others.

    There are simply some classes that are more "fun" when it comes to M+ and the majority that doesnt know what they are talking about would obviously focus on that.

    Obviously the overall damage of the dungeon and the uptimes do not change, the argument is silly to focus on that..but the playstyle fun is a very relevant subject
    Yeah, that's definitely true. With all our augments used at once, Fury's damage is close to unparalleled in both single target and AoE. Without said augments, well, we're kind of shit. I get that the spec is designed that way and not everyone can be Havoc and have Eye Beam on every pack, and it still evens out in the end, but I'd like the peaks and valleys to be a bit less severe. In BfA I'd like to see Frothing Berserker and Bloodbath simply removed with a corresponding buff to our damage.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Despite the lack of context, the last point you quoted remains true, and what I alluded to in my last post - Battle Cry itself is not a very powerful cooldown. 100% crit doesn't do all that much on it's own; it's the combination effect with Unrivaled Strength, Bloodbath, Avatar, and guaranteed Enrage/Frothing which makes the cumulative burst as powerful as you've repeatedly pointed out.

    Like I said, these are wholly separate concepts, which do not impede on one another. There's absolutely no reason to sit here and have a pissing contest over it.
    To be clear though, I think you didn't really address the OP's points. For one, when he complains about Fury being reliant on Battle Cry, buff stacking is part and parcel with that - you can't say "well Battle Cry on its own isn't that powerful" because that's simply not relevant when it is powerful enough that it requires you to hold any other CDs in order to use them with Battle Cry.

    Second, the OP centered most of his complaints around M+ trash packs, and you posted statistics on a single target raid boss. That's also not a particularly fair comparison; I'm fairly certain the spread would look different if you compared DPS inside/outside of CDs on short AoE trash packs rather than over the length of a single target boss fight.

    I am not a warrior expert, but it appears to me that your analysis and methodology did leave a bit to be desired.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by kirielle View Post
    To be clear though, I think you didn't really address the OP's points. For one, when he complains about Fury being reliant on Battle Cry, buff stacking is part and parcel with that - you can't say "well Battle Cry on its own isn't that powerful" because that's simply not relevant when it is powerful enough that it requires you to hold any other CDs in order to use them with Battle Cry.

    Second, the OP centered most of his complaints around M+ trash packs, and you posted statistics on a single target raid boss. That's also not a particularly fair comparison; I'm fairly certain the spread would look different if you compared DPS inside/outside of CDs on short AoE trash packs rather than over the length of a single target boss fight.

    I am not a warrior expert, but it appears to me that your analysis and methodology did leave a bit to be desired.
    No, Archi is right.

    OP said that "why does fury hits like a wet noodle in M+, fuck this class when i dont have Battle Cry"

    OP obviously forgot or doesnt know that our DPS isnt counted by packs, but overall damage.

    Which Archi explained why he is wrong, at the same time the factor of fun comes in.

    Fury is not fun at all in M+ compared to other classes, but thats irrelevant to overall performance.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by kirielle View Post
    To be clear though, I think you didn't really address the OP's points.
    I didn't say "battle cry on it's own isn't that powerful" to the OP. I said that many responses later, when making a point to Forogil that what is being attributed to Battle Cry is actually a combination of effects (primarily Bloodbath, but also the guaranteed Enrage/Frothing, could even lump Odyn's Fury in there, particularly for M+ AoE), and I used Frost DK to make a comparative claim (Pillar of Frost & Obliteration). Don't conflate those posts, they were two different conversations to two different people.

    You're correct that ST isn't a great comparison to his complaints of M+, but I was, as potis pointed out, trying to make a point about the nature of overall damage. I suppose we could have used M+ logs, but that damage is highly predicated on the group (how you pull, how much you group together to AoE down, which trinkets you use, etc), which makes it very hard to create any kind accurate comparison from one group to another.

    Because of this, I went the easy route, which may not be entirely relevant to M+, but was still reflective of the greater point (the question I quoted) being made - Fury still does the majority (over half) of its damage outside of Battle Cry, and comparing that to how much damage similar classes do in/out of their primary cooldowns.

    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    No, Archi is right.

    OP said that "why does fury hits like a wet noodle in M+, fuck this class when i dont have Battle Cry"
    It's not really about being right or wrong, there are different ways to interpret the OP's complaint, and different ways to assess the value of cooldowns. For example, there's nothing wrong with trying to assess how much Fury cooldowns increase dps by, but that's only half the equation, as I pointed out. How much cooldowns increases damage by, and what percentage of total damage is done in/out of said cooldowns are completely separate concepts.

    It's a shame we couldn't have a civil conversation on the matter, but some people just refuse to discuss any other viewpoint than their own. Once they go from discussing to arguing, and start undermining with nonspecific claims, it's time to use that block feature and move on.

  7. #47
    Ye gods, I didn't expect this thread to get so acerbic.

    I think the main culprit in M+ is really the ''hold literally everything for Battle Cry'' aspect of the spec. Bloodbath, Forgemaster's or other trinkets, Odyn's Fury, rage for pre-preemptive Rampage, potion, all of this needs to be used within BC for maximum effectiveness, there's no such thing as staggering cooldowns. It works on raid bosses as the DPS peaks and valleys average over time, but feels bad in M+ when you do less than half the damage on Trash Pack B than you did on Trash Pack A. Yes, you can play around this a bit or be lucky with Concordance, but it's not a problem I face when I DPS as other specs.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Ye gods, I didn't expect this thread to get so acerbic.

    I think the main culprit in M+ is really the ''hold literally everything for Battle Cry'' aspect of the spec. Bloodbath, Forgemaster's or other trinkets, Odyn's Fury, rage for pre-preemptive Rampage, potion, all of this needs to be used within BC for maximum effectiveness, there's no such thing as staggering cooldowns. It works on raid bosses as the DPS peaks and valleys average over time, but feels bad in M+ when you do less than half the damage on Trash Pack B than you did on Trash Pack A. Yes, you can play around this a bit or be lucky with Concordance, but it's not a problem I face when I DPS as other specs.
    I'd say Warriors, since it's common to Arms as well as Fury. It can also be a strength though; there's a reason nearly every MDI team used at least one Warrior and made big pulls of a lot of packs, rather than individually pulling groups.

    It's just something you learn to play around. I'd call it a bit of a learning curve for less experienced players, but a coordinated player/group quickly learns which packs need cooldowns, and how to time them effectively. Personally, I like it a lot more than playing classes with significantly longer cooldowns, which are often held or wasted on short pulls.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by kirielle View Post
    Second, the OP centered most of his complaints around M+ trash packs, and you posted statistics on a single target raid boss. That's also not a particularly fair comparison; I'm fairly certain the spread would look different if you compared DPS inside/outside of CDs on short AoE trash packs rather than over the length of a single target boss fight.
    The most obvious solution would be to use a different fight to get closer to that.

    The only current boss with adds that look somewhat similar to trash packs (i.e. not spread out) is Portal Keeper Hasbel.

    The top 3 fury warriors do 55-68% of their damage during the <20% that Battle cry is active (and most of that damage is still for Hasbel - not for the adds).

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I'd say Warriors, since it's common to Arms as well as Fury. It can also be a strength though; there's a reason nearly every MDI team used at least one Warrior and made big pulls of a lot of packs, rather than individually pulling groups.

    It's just something you learn to play around. I'd call it a bit of a learning curve for less experienced players, but a coordinated player/group quickly learns which packs need cooldowns, and how to time them effectively. Personally, I like it a lot more than playing classes with significantly longer cooldowns, which are often held or wasted on short pulls.
    Yeah, that's true, different classes having different strengths and weaknesses is good for the game. Still, it still feels better to play my Frost DK in M+: your base Rime and KM procs already do very good damage, you have Pillar of Frost on almost every pull. If you need some more punch, Obliterate + Pillar for killer Frostscythes. And if you really, positively want this pack to be very dead, say hello to my girl Sindragosa.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausername25 View Post
    Has any spec in the history of wow been tied to 1 spell more than Fury is currently reliant on Battlecry?

    Sure we can good damage in raids and Mythic+ but the effort required seems far more than some other specs, in + especially. Outside of BC we do sub tank dps (providing no war machine buff). I might as well not hit the mobs at all when all I can do is WW -> WW -> BT.

    Battlecry requires careful planning whereas locks, for example, have very few CD's and don't have to worry about which packs are coming up.

    The severity of the problem differs from dungeon to dungeon and from tank to tank. It's good when a pack lasts long enough to get 2 BC's in / 1 BC but the pack is dead soon after. Outside of that the timer on BC is just nerve wracking.

    The worst situations are when you're saving your BC for a big back that's coming after 2 mobs. 'Okay, I don't want to use BC on these two because I'm saving it for the big pack. Let's do wet noodle damage for now and go crazy on the next. Oh wait, the tank has pulled another solo mob. I better use BC now so I don't look like I'm a burden weighing the team down with no dps. Oh that mob died quicker than expected. Shit, we're on the big pull and BC isn't up.'

    or when BC comes off CD when mobs are at 50% hp. Sometimes it's worth using it at that point, but then it won't be ready for the start of the next pull.

    Overall we do competitive damage but man is it stressful sometimes.

    TLDR; nerf BC or buff CoF -.-
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