Void elves: The most uninspired race in wow

[Friendlyimmolation]

As for a couple of the specifics you mention ("any offer of friendship has a dagger behind it's back", "a way to abuse them in some way", "Combine this with several events and and already present Xenophobia"), especially the one regarding xenophobia, you have to circle back around to how believable something is or isn't. How can we, the omnipotent third party, be expected to believe that a primary motivator for the Blood Elves maintaining a near-fanatical devotion to the Horde is because they're hyper-conscious of which groups help or hinder their own ethnic interests?

A, perhaps the, founding nation of the Horde literally counts among it's veterans individuals who would've been complicit in the raiding and pillaging of Quel'thalas -- it's not immediately clear why we, the players, would sympathize with the narrative explanation (that Blood Elves have elected to remain aligned with the Horde, either for a grudge long held or because of a radical self-interest) when all of their criticisms of life as a member of the Alliance have played out the same, or worse, while betrothed to the Horde. That's the contentious issue, for me.

I agree with you often, but here we disagree. Overall the Horde has been more beneficial, and more trustworthy for the Blood elves than the Alliance has proved themselves to be. It is completely realistic to see a hatred of the Alliance that grows even with the past crimes of the Horde against them, the Alliance is more current in it's faults against them, and it's compacted by the fact that they used to be allies, making the numerous perceived betrayals even worse. Liadrin states something similar that being part of the Horde was not always easy, but it allowed them to carve a place for themselves where others mistrusted them or fought against them. Even a light devoted paladin like herself perceives the Alliance as an enemy.

As an afterthought, doesn't it seem a bit strange to cite racial distrust as being a somewhat universal and intrinsic to the day-to-day life of a Blood Elf when there was at least three groups who became disenfranchised with the Blood Elves and who re-joined the Alliance, yet haven't once spoken of or even hinted at racial mistrust? Umbric is a pretty good example of someone who, in all likelihood, was present with Rommath when they were arrested in Dalaran -- yet he didn't even give a second thought to joining the Alliance (and, like Alleria, they both still explicitly state they fight for Quel'thalas) nor did he balk about working alongside humans despite having been a part of the group that apparently hates them with a Rwandan-esque fervor.

I'd say Umbric is a special case where he was prostrating himself before Alleria as his savior, she saved him from insanity, and therefore he and the velves would follow her because she saved them. As I said before the elves already in the Alliance or joined the Alliance, were social outcasts anyways, even before the official split. (Vereesa the big example)

This would fall into the category of "contrived explanations". It's a game set in a sort of medieval, fantasy setting -- you may as well expect anybody with a pulse is going to be spying for someone. You think the Blood Elves didn't have information flowing to them from the various frontages? Be real. At best, this is just shoddy reasoning for Blizzard to affect gameplay by giving the Horde things that would bolster their population, at worst it illustrates that the political class in Quel'thalas is either inept or hypocritical.

Every nation is a hypocrite in that regard, it does not change however, that the Alliance did not actually come with an offer of allegiance or renewed friendship, they shot themselves in the foot by making the walking dead a more viable, and friendly choice of ally.

And yet not one, or even two, but three distinct circumstances have arisen wherein large ("large", air quotes being necessary) clusters of individuals completely defect to the Alliance and aren't subjected to immediate racism or prejudice.

I already adressed this earlier, but I'll tldr it. They are the exception, not the rule, the high elves with their human fetish, and the void elves with their loyalty due to Alleria saving them(the velves are met with prejudice in parts of Stormwind too, last I checked, I didn't roll one my self to check.)

It's because it doesn't jive with how the real world works, which means as a viewer/reader, you cannot suspend disbelief when obnoxious decisions are made. If Mexico sends a million soldiers to butcher their way through the southwestern U.S., whereas Canada arrests a bunch of reservists we sent to help them (who then broke Canadian law), it wouldn't be logical to then join Mexico against Canada -- the punishment doens't fit the crime, so to speak.

Except that's not a proper example. They aren't joining Mexico, they are joining the rebels who ran out the guy who butchered parts of the Us. They didn't want to ally with them at first, but in with Canada in this real world scenario first trying to execute the President/leader of the Us, and then spying on the efforts to rebuild under the pretense of an abassador outreach that had no real plans to actually help, kickstarts that unlikely bond, a bond that grows when later down the line Canada (What an odd real life comparison) pulls a similar stunt and kills more of your citizens.

[Deleted]

Meanwhile, in Stormwind, actual non-void, pink skinned High Elves:



But sure, something something about the people of Quel'Danas hating humans.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Meanwhile, in Stormwind, actual non-void, pink skinned High Elves:

[IMG]https://image.ibb.co/joPwdm/Wo_WScrn_Shot_020318_075437.jpg[IMG]

But sure, something something about the people of Quel'Danas hating humans.

Since reading seems to not be your strength, the remaining high elves are the exception to the rule, they are a fragment of a fragment and hardly representative of Quel'thalas. Ion outright stated they integrated into other cultures because they had none of their own left, or even a stable population.

[Fyersing]

To me, it's less on why it makes sense for Blood Elves to be Horde and more on why any High Elf (by extension Blood Elf) would be aligned with the Alliance.

The distinction between the groups is almost entirely political, which means to formulate any conclusion as to the "rightness" or "wrongness", they have to be compared -- not analyzed in a bubble.

Those who today refer to themselves as High Elves would've, in most cases, been present for the raiding parties of/following the Second War (Orcs, primarily) and for the aftermath of the Sacking of Quel'thalas (whereby Kael'thas was arrested with his comrades). Thus, they recognize two incidents which could be interpreted as a slight -- the first perpetrated by orcs, the second perpetrated by humans.

Conversely, those who adopted the Blood Elven moniker (who were also present for all of the above) experience additional personal slights -- specifically, and again, by orcs. You can count the various run-ins like Dalaran as being racially-motivated, but it's a stretch because the perpetrators are almost always of the same biological race.

Elves being extremely xenophobic is simply a Tolkien trope. They hate everybody and everybody hates them. The only reason why the Blood Elves are a part of the Horde is because the Horde doesn't have an interest in limiting their use of magic.

I pray the irony of this underlined portion isn't lost on you, following the Void Elves.

In any case, as you were writing that sentence, did it not strike you ass odd to characterize the Alliance as being magically cloistered-off when they've got the most powerful Mage, Warlock, and presumably Priest?

So why does the Silver Covenant even exist as an Alliance faction?

The short answer is, Blizzard. The long answer is, they weren't willing to commit absolutely to the concept of Blood Elves being Horde -- largely because, at the time, there was no rational precedent and the implementation was likely 100% motivated by factors unrelated to narrative consistency (meaning, Horde was boring, needed more pizazz).

It's been told time and time again that the Humans have a deep hatred for them

Not sure people with "a deep hatred" extend their hand, over and over, in friendship. When's the last time we were offering any member of ISIS permanent residency here in the U.S. (please, no Sweden jokes).

and the Night Elves view them as outcasts.

They viewed them as being dangerous, initially, which isn't unreasonable considering they feared (rightfully so) that usage of the Arcane would attract the Legion. This isn't the case any longer, as per the last 10 years of narrative.

Vereesa and Alleria seem to have forgone the deep hatred just because both of their lovers are Human, which is good enough for Blizzard apparently since one of them is the leader of the Silver Covenant.

I would argue that since there are dozens/hundreds of High Elves/Void Elves, who presumably can't all be hopelessly in love with a human, that a great many of them either got over this utilizing reason or else never had this alleged "deep hatred" to begin with. We know many who didn't, all for different reasons.

It's just clear to me that the lore of dividing the High Elves up is an after thought behind giving the Horde a prettier race to balance faction population.

Agreed.

[The Iron Fist]

You can't really have a serious conversation related to the Alliance or High Elves with Friendlyimmolation, guys. He is a massive Horde and Blood Elf fanboy who handwaves, strawmans and headcanons to his hearts desire. There is not a whole lot of rational or objective going on in his own world. Just wasting your time.

Infracted.

[mickybrighteyes]

It's because it doesn't jive with how the real world works, which means as a viewer/reader, you cannot suspend disbelief when obnoxious decisions are made. If Mexico sends a million soldiers to butcher their way through the southwestern U.S., whereas Canada arrests a bunch of reservists we sent to help them (who then broke Canadian law), it wouldn't be logical to then join Mexico against Canada -- the punishment doens't fit the crime, so to speak.

this is a poor comparison and doesn't even bother looking into the various parties beyond region of origin for groups....

but this argument also seems to be the idea blizz has for Alleria's pov on the subject.

[Friendlyimmolation]

You can't really have a serious conversation related to the Alliance or High Elves with Friendlyimmolation, guys. He is a massive Horde and Blood Elf fanboy who handwaves, strawmans and headcanons to his hearts desire. There is not a whole lot of rational or objective going on in his own world. Just wasting your time.

Surely me correcting you constantly on lore related issues has nothing to do with this eternal victimhood towards me, you better watch out or I'll correct a post or something.

I would say I am disappointed that you are wounded over having your own personal narrative corrected in the past, but I would be lying if I wasn't somewhat amused.

[Goldielocks]

I pray the irony of this underlined portion isn't lost on you, following the Void Elves.

In any case, as you were writing that sentence, did it not strike you ass odd to characterize the Alliance as being magically cloistered-off when they've got the most powerful Mage, Warlock, and presumably Priest?

All of those characters are Human, the majority race of the Alliance. There's an inherent fear due to xenophobia; to limit their use of magic. Tyrande applied this logic to the Nightborne.

Not sure people with "a deep hatred" extend their hand, over and over, in friendship. When's the last time we were offering any member of ISIS permanent residency here in the U.S. (please, no Sweden jokes).

Well, those hands of friendship were made by leaders that are better people than the majority of the Alliance residents. That doesn't mean a High Elf would feel welcome.

I would argue that since there are dozens/hundreds of High Elves/Void Elves, who presumably can't all be hopelessly in love with a human, that a great many of them either got over this utilizing reason or else never had this alleged "deep hatred" to begin with. We know many who didn't, all for different reasons.

Nah I doubt that. Warcraft borrows a lot from Tolkien and this is no exception.

[Melsiren]

You can't really have a serious conversation related to the Alliance or High Elves with Friendlyimmolation, guys. He is a massive Horde and Blood Elf fanboy who handwaves, strawmans and headcanons to his hearts desire. There is not a whole lot of rational or objective going on in his own world. Just wasting your time.

Please show us on the doll where Friendlyimmolation touched you.

[Deleted]

Since reading seems to not be your strength, the remaining high elves are the exception to the rule, they are a fragment of a fragment and hardly representative of Quel'thalas. Ion outright stated they integrated into other cultures because they had none of their own left, or even a stable population.

Ion hates the idea of playable High Elves on the Alliance, so he likes to pretend they barely exist. Meanwhile, we have them showing up all over the place.

Honestly, the question is not whether Silvermoon should be in the Horde or the Alliance. It's whether there's narrative consistency or not. And there simply isn't. Blizzard's writing about High Elves is all over the place. It makes for a very bad story. The fact that developers have to keep coming up with clarifications of the current situation is proof enough of this.

[Melsiren]

Ion hates the idea of playable High Elves on the Alliance, so he likes to pretend they barely exist. Meanwhile, we have them showing up all over the place.

Honestly, the question is not whether Silvermoon should be in the Horde or the Alliance. It's whether there's narrative consistency or not. And there simply isn't. Blizzard's writing about High Elves is all over the place. It makes for a very bad story. The fact that developers have to keep coming up with clarifications of the current situation is proof enough of this.

Wow is anything but consistent, and in inconsistent cesspool stories like this one Word of God is very important.

The fact is perception means -nothing- if the Lore clearly states one thing and is held up as cannon several times. (example the 2005 encyclopedia)
It's plan and simple Word of God does not care about your opinion, and it's been clearly stated "High Elves" are so far and few they do not even have a culture.

I understand it's frustrating but what do you honesty expect with Blizzard?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Ion hates the idea of playable High Elves on the Alliance, so he likes to pretend they barely exist. Meanwhile, we have them showing up all over the place.

Honestly, the question is not whether Silvermoon should be in the Horde or the Alliance. It's whether there's narrative consistency or not. And there simply isn't. Blizzard's writing about High Elves is all over the place. It makes for a very bad story. The fact that developers have to keep coming up with clarifications of the current situation is proof enough of this.

The same small group of elves showing up does not magically make their population grow, They have been stated as neigh extinct with little to no cultural remains since pre-Burning Crusade, before Ion last I recall.

The writing for high elves has not been inconsistent, them being near extinction has been their thing since WC3.

[Fyersing]

I agree with you often, but here we disagree. Overall the Horde has been more beneficial, and more trustworthy for the Blood elves than the Alliance has proved themselves to be. It is completely realistic to see a hatred of the Alliance that grows even with the past crimes of the Horde against them, the Alliance is more current in it's faults against them, and it's compacted by the fact that they used to be allies, making the numerous perceived betrayals even worse. Liadrin states something similar that being part of the Horde was not always easy, but it allowed them to carve a place for themselves where others mistrusted them or fought against them. Even a light devoted paladin like herself perceives the Alliance as an enemy.

We can't really weigh benefits, because one is purely hypothetical. Trustworthiness, though, is fair play.

Ultimately, for me, everything stems from an unbelievable premise. The things that follow are mostly reasonable (to the extent that Blizzard portrays things, at least), but the actual decision to join the Horde to begin with is so outlandish in character that it sours the mood for all of their interactions with either faction.

I'd say Umbric is a special case where he was prostrating himself before Alleria as his savior, she saved him from insanity, and therefore he and the velves would follow her because she saved them. As I said before the elves already in the Alliance or joined the Alliance, were social outcasts anyways, even before the official split. (Vereesa the big example)

That shouldn't matter, especially for Void Elves, if the assertion is that they're all innately prone towards a sort of ethno-nationalism? If it's an innate behavior, a change in allegiance shouldn't affect it? Since we don't see it on the Alliance, then it's presumably not actually innate behavior, no?

Every nation is a hypocrite in that regard, it does not change however, that the Alliance did not actually come with an offer of allegiance or renewed friendship, they shot themselves in the foot by making the walking dead a more viable, and friendly choice of ally.

They did come with an offer, they simply burnt that bridge through ineptitude (as you said, sort of).

As for the Forsaken being friendly, did we forget that their first few years in the Horde were ultimately nothing but blackmail by Sylvanas? I mean, Lor'themar may as well have been a prison-b***h to the Banshee-Queen.

I already adressed this earlier, but I'll tldr it. They are the exception, not the rule, the high elves with their human fetish, and the void elves with their loyalty due to Alleria saving them(the velves are met with prejudice in parts of Stormwind too, last I checked, I didn't roll one my self to check.)

The prejudice is because they're infused with the Void, trying to enter into the Church of the Holy Light. It's not race-based.

Except that's not a proper example. They aren't joining Mexico, they are joining the rebels who ran out the guy who butchered parts of the Us. They didn't want to ally with them at first, but in with Canada in this real world scenario first trying to execute the President/leader of the Us, and then spying on the efforts to rebuild under the pretense of an abassador outreach that had no real plans to actually help, kickstarts that unlikely bond, a bond that grows when later down the line Canada (What an odd real life comparison) pulls a similar stunt and kills more of your citizens.

I honestly forgot my own analogy, it's late, and so then reading your revised edition made me realize that analogies are terrible tools.

All of those characters are Human, the majority race of the Alliance. There's an inherent fear due to xenophobia; to limit their use of magic.

...what? So the Alliance wants to limit the use of magic, while they endorse and rally-behind people who utilize it to it's fullest effect? This is almost as far-fetched as Justin Beiber being a lizard-man.

Tyrande applied this logic to the Nightborne.

She patently does not. You find the source, I'll wait.

Well, those hands of friendship were made by leaders that are better people than the majority of the Alliance residents. That doesn't mean a High Elf would feel welcome.

This consensus that the Alliance is filled to the brim with heinously bigoted people, specifically against High Elves, is particularly confusing because as someone who's a fan of all things Night Elf, High Elf, Blood Elf, or Void Elf I can't say I've come across anything that would corroborate the notion. Seems like head-canon, born of projecting Garithos onto all humans.

Nah I doubt that. Warcraft borrows a lot from Tolkien and this is no exception.

It's easy to say it. Can you substantiate it?

[Melsiren]

The same small group of elves showing up does not magically make their population grow, They have been stated as neigh extinct with little to no cultural remains since pre-Burning Crusade, before Ion last I recall.

The writing for high elves has not been inconsistent, them being near extinction has been their thing since WC3.

I think what he's trying to say is.

"How can there be few of them if I see them everywhere."

[The Iron Fist]

Ion hates the idea of playable High Elves on the Alliance, so he likes to pretend they barely exist. Meanwhile, we have them showing up all over the place.

Honestly, the question is not whether Silvermoon should be in the Horde or the Alliance. It's whether there's narrative consistency or not. And there simply isn't. Blizzard's writing about High Elves is all over the place. It makes for a very bad story. The fact that developers have to keep coming up with clarifications of the current situation is proof enough of this.

High Elves will eventually be playable. They are the most requested Allied Race by a significant margin on any poll they are included in. Too much $$ for Blizzard to pass up. The hints are everywhere. High Elf Sorceress' in the Mage Quarter. High Elves in the Telogrus Rift with Blood Elves. On the quest where you're with Alleria to unlock Void Elves, note that before the scenario if you see another player questing Alleria shows up as a High Elf... not a Void Elf. Consistent Silver Covenant development from WotLK through Legion... Ion never said they wouldn't be playable, only that High Elves are "pretty much" Blood Elves. 5 minutes or so earlier in the interview he called Hallows End by Halloween. He isn't a lore guy; he's an X's and O's guy.
@Aucald You cannot separate the High Elf and Void Elf topic for multiple reasons. The biggest one is that Void Elves are High Elves, because Blood Elves are High Elves. That however does not mean that High Elves are necessarily Blood Elves or Void Elves. Blizzard has done a terrible job telling the story (if you could even call it that) of Void Elves and because of that people are going to cling to the straws of information they do have.

[Goldielocks]

High Elves will eventually be playable.

Nah. High Elves account for 1% of the original Quel'thalas population. Not enough to send adventurers out into the world. Not to mention that from a game design perspective, having two races look really similar on opposite factions is a terrible idea.

[Verdugo]

-snip-

I think Aucald mentioned that this is a Void Elf thread, not a High Elf one, can you stop derailing please?

[Dopplegager]

Aren't there some numbers that have been estimated from lore?

90% of the high elves were killed from Arthas' attack. 9% of those became blood elves and 1% stayed with the alliance. So the break downs of the survivors/expats.

The total population of blood elves was enough to warrant a race. Now what percent of the blood elves became void elves? I doubt more than 11% of them did which is what it would take just to reach the population of high elves. Void elf population is still likely smaller than that of the high elves.

So what are we at? 8.5% blood elves. 1% high elves. 0.5% void elves?

[Friendlyimmolation]

We can't really weigh benefits, because one if purely hypothetical. Trustworthiness, though, is fair play.

Ultimately, for me, everything stems from an unbelievable premise. The things that follow are mostly reasonable (to the extent that Blizzard portrays things, at least), but the actual decision to join the Horde to begin with is so outlandish in character that it sours the mood for all of their interactions with either faction.

Originally, they planned to use the Horde as a vehicle to get to Outland, as time went on the Horde continued to be beneficial, and they grew into the faction more than they ever did with the Alliance (actively participating) Their reasoning wasn't really outlandish. They had two sides to choose, and one despite being an old enemy, now offered friendship and helped them kill Dar'khan, the other being an old alley who had in recent events tried to kill their leader, and who now got caught spying on them, and sending a sizeable hostile force into their territory. The distaste for the humans, and the Alliance in general snowballed hard from there.

That shouldn't matter, especially for Void Elves, if the assertion is that they're all innately prone towards a sort of ethno-nationalism? If it's an innate behavior, a change in allegiance shouldn't affect it? Since we don't see it on the Alliance, then it's presumably not actually innate behavior, no?

I think ethno nationalism gets it's gnands kicked inwards once you get booted out for going against the rules. Umbric and his velves were humbled, they aren't prideful now, they are trying to prove themselves as useful.

As for being innate, we saw it when the overwheming majority of the elves followed Anastarian's idea to pull from the Alliance in the first place, and we get snippets of it time and time again, (Lorthemar hating halfbreeds, Rommath being Rommath, Liadrin spreading propaganda to smooth the nightborne's transition in to the Horde.)

They did come with an offer, they simply burnt that bridge through ineptitude (as you said, sort of).

As for the Forsaken being friendly, did we forget that their first few years in the Horde were ultimately nothing but blackmail by Sylvanas? I mean, Sylvanas may as well have been a prison-b***h to the Banshee-Queen.

This is true, and is part of the elves using the Horde just for convenience, (as they once did the Alliance,) into coming into their own and being an active member, (really taking off in MoP, to where we are now.

The prejudice is because they're infused with the Void, trying to enter into the Church of the Holy Light. It's not race-based.

Ah my mistake then.

Humans in general seem to have a boner for elves, the prejudice is going to come from the elves mostly, and in case of the void elves, they are trying to make themselves useful, and recently were severly humbled by Durzan, they of course are not going to be as racially prideful as a Sin'Dorei.

I honestly forgot my own analogy, it's late, and so then reading your revised edition made me realize that analogies are terrible tools.

They can be quite difficult.

[Goldielocks]

...what? So the Alliance wants to limit the use of magic, while they endorse and rally-behind people who utilize it to it's fullest effect? This is almost as far-fetched as Justin Beiber being a lizard-man.

This isn't that difficult. The Humans would trust a Human more than any other race. The Alliance is led by Humans.

She patently does not. You find the source, I'll wait.

Except that Tyrande meets Thalyssra with scorn for something that Elisande and Azshara did. That is literally generalizing an entire race. It's the same.

This consensus that the Alliance is filled to the brim with heinously bigoted people, specifically against High Elves, is particularly confusing because as someone who's a fan of all things Night Elf, High Elf, Blood Elf, or Void Elf I can't say I've come across anything that would corroborate the notion. Seems like head-canon, born of projecting Garithos onto all humans.

WC3 and other books talk about this all the time. Not to mention that all of the wikis state that the Humans hated the Elves.

but muh wikipedia

It's easy to say it. Can you substantiate it?

You're kidding me, right? Have you not watched or read LOR? Do you not see the incredible similarities between the Elves, how they behave, how they look, etc? The Dwarves? Orcs vs Humans? Do you really think Blizzard invented that concept? This stuff was written half a century before Warcraft 1.