We can ABSOLUTELY pretend WoD never happened

[Santti]

Eh, I think WoD was just fine.

[Flurryfang]

Wow, you actually found a way to make WoD Grom even worse.



"Fun to play?" I really enjoyed not having any buttons on my warrior, so much fun!

I make grom work. Grom is currently at a dead end, he is a bad guy turned good for no reason at all and with a lot of bagage from the past. He can not become a horde leadership figure, he can not fill any role Garrosh filled before.

What he can do, is be an interesting character who does interesting things. With the limits his character has, there is really no other way for this to happend then have him be a wandering character.

[Soeroah]

It's fine, it's not that bad. The leveling experience was worthwhile.

And it assists no one to pretend the bad parts never happened.

[Castrum]

No one honestly hated Draenor. Like, come on. We all hated the goddamn Garrison and Blizz abandoning WoD early on. Who the hell can honestly say to me that bringing Good Grom to fight the Legion in this xpack wouldn't have been badass as all hell? But no, Blizz buried WoD and all of its characters save for Cordana and Gul'dan because idiots have made them think we all hated Draenor.

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I can forgive WoD if they retract the stupid "Legion spans all timelines" bullshit. We killed their Archimonde, our Archimonde died at Hyjal. Done. But the problem is that bullshit is interwoven with the start of Legion.

If they can retcon both of those, I can look past all of WoD's other warts. As it stands, it's a massive blemish on the story and lore.

I always thought of it as Archimonde and Mannoroth being brought back after re-forming in the Twisting Nether. Neither one was killed in the Nether or on a Legion world. The Garrosh alternate timeline Draenor was around for a number of years in its history before the Legion and Gul'dan showed up. They could have gotten word that a time anomaly allowing for another chance at controlling the Orcs had occurred. They sent Mannoroth, but he didn't know about Garrosh. Hence the WoD cinematic.

[Shadowsgrace]

As much as you want to pretend it never happened, all the gold players made from Garrisons, will always be there proving you wrong. Sorry mate.

[Molvonos]

Hot damn there are some bitter people in this thread.

I enjoyed WoD, then again, I can enjoy the game without putting on my 'holier than blizzard' pants on.

[Destinas]

Pretend is the key word. It still happened. It's the reason Gul'dan and Cordana are on the Broken Isles. It's the reason Garrosh and Zaela are missing entirely. It's the reason why Romuul exists (he was introduced in AU Draenor first). Gul'dan even mentions that you're the "Slayer of Archimonde" when you get the Scepter of Sargeras.

Sure, there were plenty of things to be disappointed about when it comes to WoD. Pretending it never happened means that no one will learn from it, and it can never be built upon later. They could go back to AU Draenor and add more places in, flesh out more of the lore, and even introduce Allied Races from it - which it seems they may be doing already. There are more benefits to keeping it in our memories and official lore.

The problem with the lore wasn't that it was set on Draenor, or that it was set in another time (in another dimension), it was the fact that Blizzard half-assed everything from the start of it. When they noticed people were unhappy, they abandoned ship and moved on without another patch, and without mentioning much of the events of WoD later on.

No one honestly hated Draenor. Like, come on. We all hated the goddamn Garrison and Blizz abandoning WoD early on. Who the hell can honestly say to me that bringing Good Grom to fight the Legion in this xpack wouldn't have been badass as all hell? But no, Blizz buried WoD and all of its characters save for Cordana and Gul'dan because idiots have made them think we all hated Draenor.

I didn't hate the Garrison, I was only disappointed by it. I feel like they should have gone full player housing, instead of making it "Blizzard's version of player housing." I enjoyed making so much gold from it, as well.

[Molvonos]

You cannot be against time travel if you're even remotely ok with the bronze dragonflight and the caverns of time.

Period.

WoD happened because of the same abilities that enable all of the caverns of time. Time travel has always been a thing, considering there's a titan that empowered Nozdormu, which has been in more for quite some time.

[Balir]

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your point of view, you can't wish it away as the Horde is going back to Draenor. It seems the Horde will be going to recruit some Mag'har (brown skin orcs) as an allied race. Ion let it slip in the recent interview.

Personally, I didn't mind WoD. It had some great zones and fantastic NPCs both new and old school lore wise.

[baskev]

That's actually exactly why I made this thread, because imo we ought to use the Mag'har (people say they're clanless, I say they have members of all clans that can recreate the same lore from WoD, with a modern twist)

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I'm surprised by how many people act like i'm suggesting we retcon WoD when all I'm proposing is that we not address it from now on, and instead keep the focus on Outland.

Because it sounds like you want to...with this new info it sounds completely different.

[Wildberry]

I make grom work. Grom is currently at a dead end, he is a bad guy turned good for no reason at all and with a lot of bagage from the past. He can not become a horde leadership figure, he can not fill any role Garrosh filled before.

Exactly. But going on crazy, wacky adventures with Yrel is just nauseating. We'd be far better off just ignoring WoD and developing MU Orcs that can actually meaningfully interact with the Horde, and world at large.

[Schattenlied]

No we can't, legeion even happening was directly caused by the events of WoD. No WoD, no alternate gul'dan to open the way, Varian and Vol'jin don't die, etc etc.

We can't pretend it didn't happen unless we also pretend legion didn't happen., which means we are pretending BFA isn't happening, which means we are pretending the expansion after that doesn't happen, and so on and whatnot. THis isn't like TBC/WotLK/Cata/MoP where they just sort of happened without any cause directly linked to the events of the previous iteration of the game, Blizzard is now laying the causing events in the current game for the following expansions long before they are even announced.

[ello]

Bringing Grom back could be interesting because we very rarely, if ever, get to see the story of a formerly "bad" character(Illidan doesn't count). Most characters who get redeemed pretty much die/are sacrificed immediately afterwards so you never get to explore what it means to be a bad-guy-gone-good and enjoy a proper, bitpart redemption story. He probably isn't the right candidate for this because of "DRAENOR IS FREE" but I would sitll like to see it one day.

[Techno-Druid]

I always pretend MoP never happend.

I know, it's hard to comprehend a masterpiece such as MoP actually having been released by Blizzard

[Ningjinq]

If they are going to have an HvA war anyways, can they just retcon the HFC Grom and give Horde the WoD cinematic “we will be conquerors” Grom?

[anaxie]

IMO, I always assumed that if the Skull of Guldan had the power to make Illidan half demon, Guldan was demon enough to be reformed in the nether.

Food for thought.

Would help if you understood guldans skull only held power because the demons turned it into a totem after his death for the pure irony of it. Maybe you should learn the lore

Food for thought

[sam86]

KJ wasn't in WoD so I'm confused how they made him stupid. Not sure about the Grom steroid thing. If I was an orc and someone busted out those kinds of scary machines I'd join up in a heartbeat if only to have them not used on me. Kilrogg wanted what he wanted, an "honorable" death and he didn't care how he got it, nothing different there.

As for the multiverse thing, I took an immediate paralell with DC and their use of the Bleed.

https://sourcererblog.files.wordpres...ltiversity.jpg

Our universe is one of the numbered ones. WoD's universe is another. And the Bleed/aka the Twisting Nether is the universe in between all the others. It's pretty straightforward. Demons are intrinsically connected to the Twisting Nether, it's their home dimension. When Kil'jaeden/Archimonde took the deal and became demons they were no longer beings native to their own universe, they were native to the Twisting Nether. Which meant many of the rules of the material universes no longer applied.

I'm not sure what you get about the bronze dragonflight. Even without our player's interference in the Mount Hyjal raid, which I'm guessing is the one you're implying was erased, he was still summoned, fought against the heroes of Azeroth, and was obliterated by the wisps. That's likely the battle he learned from and revealed new tricks.

-KJ is the one behind the whole drink blood plan, at first he appeared as ancestor to Ner'zhul, then started to appear as every clan ancestor (including Frostwolf, hence why Drek'thar drunk the blood and participated in genocide against Draenei and even Durotan helped in that, while there are clans like white tooth clan that refused and got wiped out), in WoD they skip entire story of Rise of the Horde and just go literally directly to 'drink blood', no manipulation, no draw them to Oshgun, no visions, no empower them, no anything, just drink blood, no surprise orcs 'refused'
-Kil'rogg was named honorable by everyone including alliance, he never liked to 'cheat', he won't take fel blood to 'empower' him in desperate, in MU he literally stood and died instead of run away because that is his personality (back then there was nothing about 'vision of his death' thing yet in lore)
-No it isn't like DC, because in our world, there are 2 Velen, and 2 KJ (prior to being 'demon' thing), difference 30 years, Velen still exist 2, let's call him Velen 1 for MU and Velen 2 for AU shit, Velen 1 still exist, Velen 2 sacrificed himself for a failure of character, now to KJ, KJ1 became demon lets say year Argus 1, KJ2 is still a normal eredar being that isn't demon yet in Argus -30, then when our MU at year Argus 30, KJ2 become demon... so what the fuck exactly ? so the demon KJ - that is supposed to be one being - has which one memories ? Why didn't he acknowledge or recognize ANYTHING at all from MU? why did demon KJ become so stupid trying to make orcs drink 'blood' without the plan that actually worked perfectly in MU ?
-Bronze Dragonflight always show u after each time dungeon run they had power to erase the 'alternate' time and fix it like how it should worked, that's why I assumed that even MHJ that happens from the caverns of time also got fixed, meaning that Archimonde death happened as we saw in wc3, not as in TBC raid, or that how it should be, because it will be weird they fix Stratholme, Thrall escape, Dark Portal, but not that one (to be fair, that is only one they don't show up in end)

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Actually, it seems you might be getting allied races from the WoD version of Draenor so... Nope, sorry.

I beg to Yogg Soran that this is false

[Captain Kennedy]

You cannot be against time travel if you're even remotely ok with the bronze dragonflight and the caverns of time.

Period.

WoD happened because of the same abilities that enable all of the caverns of time. Time travel has always been a thing, considering there's a titan that empowered Nozdormu, which has been in more for quite some time.

That is a false comparison. The bronze dragonflight and time travel stuff was iffy before, but ultimately harmless, 6.2 however broke the universe. The 'Legion spans all timelines' bullshit is just bad story telling through and through. It causes more problems than what it can ever be worth. There's more than one Velen, so are there multiple Archimondes and Kil'Jaedans? Is Kil'Jaedan on a quest to hunt down hundreds of different Velens and Tempest Keeps? Why do Kil'Jaedan and Mannoroth keep using the same plan when it's already back fired on them before? Why ever trust any Gul'Dan ever again? If there's multiple Draenors than there must be multiple Azeroths, so does each Azeroth have a titan soul? Why did Aggramar terraform both Draenors the exact same way (from what we know).

It even brings into question how time travel worked previously. Are we stopping the same Archimonde just in another timeline in the Battle for Mount Hyjal raid?

I had no problem when they were just exploring another timeline where events folded out differently. When dragged Draenor into our universe is when everything went to shit.

[cparle87]

-KJ is the one behind the whole drink blood plan, at first he appeared as ancestor to Ner'zhul, then started to appear as every clan ancestor (including Frostwolf, hence why Drek'thar drunk the blood and participated in genocide against Draenei and even Durotan helped in that, while there are clans like white tooth clan that refused and got wiped out), in WoD they skip entire story of Rise of the Horde and just go literally directly to 'drink blood', no manipulation, no draw them to Oshgun, no visions, no empower them, no anything, just drink blood, no surprise orcs 'refused'
-Kil'rogg was named honorable by everyone including alliance, he never liked to 'cheat', he won't take fel blood to 'empower' him in desperate, in MU he literally stood and died instead of run away because that is his personality (back then there was nothing about 'vision of his death' thing yet in lore)
-No it isn't like DC, because in our world, there are 2 Velen, and 2 KJ (prior to being 'demon' thing), difference 30 years, Velen still exist 2, let's call him Velen 1 for MU and Velen 2 for AU shit, Velen 1 still exist, Velen 2 sacrificed himself for a failure of character, now to KJ, KJ1 became demon lets say year Argus 1, KJ2 is still a normal eredar being that isn't demon yet in Argus -30, then when our MU at year Argus 30, KJ2 become demon... so what the fuck exactly ? so the demon KJ - that is supposed to be one being - has which one memories ? Why didn't he acknowledge or recognize ANYTHING at all from MU? why did demon KJ become so stupid trying to make orcs drink 'blood' without the plan that actually worked perfectly in MU ?
-Bronze Dragonflight always show u after each time dungeon run they had power to erase the 'alternate' time and fix it like how it should worked, that's why I assumed that even MHJ that happens from the caverns of time also got fixed, meaning that Archimonde death happened as we saw in wc3, not as in TBC raid, or that how it should be, because it will be weird they fix Stratholme, Thrall escape, Dark Portal, but not that one (to be fair, that is only one they don't show up in end)

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I beg to Yogg Soran that this is false

- I don't recall anywhere that said that Kil'jaeden didn't do all his impersonating and scheming and such in the AU just like he did in our world. As for Kilrogg you have to admit that WC2 didn't do a lot of fleshing out of many of the characters. Guys like Kilrogg and Cho'gall before his WoW appearances had a lot of blank space to fill in however the developers wanted to do it. Considering the MU Kilrogg is also missing his eye one can safely assume he also had his vision, and followed it in search of that glorious death. And he certainly got it, holding the line against superior Alliance forces to allow his allies to get to safety.

- One thing to remember about the WoD connection is that through the Red Dark Portal our timelines were synced up. Spend a year in Draenor come back to Azeroth one year will have passed. So the fact that events on Draenor are similar to how they were on our Draenor 30 years ago is pretty moot.

- As for recognizing events that took place in the MU he certainly did. There was a fascinating short story about Gul'dan and Kil'jaeden that took place between Archimonde banishing him through the portal and him appearing to strong arm the nightborne. Check out AU Gul'dan's wowpedia page and check out the Tomb of Sargeras section. Basically Gul'dan and Kil'jaeden were in telepathic contact the entire time, while Khadgar and the Wardens were hunting Gul'dan down. Khadgar figured that Gul'dan would be drawn to the ToS like his MU counterpart was. During one of their sorties Khadgar taunts Gul'dan, asking him if Kil'jaeden ever told him what happened to the MU Gul'dan when he went to the Tomb. Gul'dan calls Kil'jaeden out on this and it takes him some time to reassure Gul'dan that that isn't going to happen to him. So Kil'jaeden is definitely aware of all the stuff that happened in our MU. Note the scars over his eye where you can see the fel inside glowing out. I like to think we players gave him those at the Sunwell.

- As for Mount Hyjal the devs flat us told us that the lore there was a lot looser than in the other CoT dungeons. As you likely noticed there was no infinite dragonflight interference or such. The devs basically told us that the Eternity's End mission in WC3 was one of their favorites and they wanted to recreate it in WoW. Kinda treat it like the Onyxia's Lair raids. Cool eye candy and loot, but not lore-canon. Archimonde got blasted by the wisps and got sent back to the Nether, and he learned from his mistakes, developed new powers, and came back stronger in WoD.

Btw, thanks for all the well thought out responses. I'm having fun discussing this.

[Grokresh]

Title says it all.

Everyone seems to agree it had good background story and aesthetics for the orc clans and draenei, and interesting enemies in the form of the Primals/Breakers, Arakkoa and Gorian ogres, but a rather rubbish core plot with the handling of the Iron horde's behavior and the characterization of its leaders.

Here's the thing.

We can ABSOLUTELY stick all the Orc clan aesthetics and other bits from WoD like the High Arakkoa and Gorians and even Primals / Breakers on pieces of Outland that we just hadn't discovered yet.

Phase/Instance them to use them as start zones for races or as new questing zones similar to Argus.

We NEVER have to speak of the AU and its terrible time travel nonsense again.

"But Sky, what about Yrel?" Well sometimes to save the body you have to hack off a few limbs, forget Yrel you have Commander Fareeya and the Lightforged now.

"But Sky, we can't just pretend it doesn't exist! It's a whole planet!"
I say, OH NO, A TERRIBLE MAGIC SHOCKWAVE FROM SARGERAS STABBING THE WORLD HAS DISCONNECTED US FROM ALTERNATE DRAENOR What a terrible shame...

And the Dark Portal goes to Outland again, the REAL Draenor and we're all happy.

Your free to live in denial regardless of how difficult that is with the characters that contradict that given it did happen and led to most of legions expansion with AU gul'dan. The fact remains it did happen, it wasn't for you and that's ok but it happened, end of story.