Multple Raids or 1 Raid with Difficulties?

[Jastall]

Why would Blizzard admit they gimped real raiding? Sure a lot of people going into LFR never having done too many other raids but a large portion of the player base including myself only does LFR now because there is no point stepping into raiding.

They tried to ''fix'' that issue in WoD, by making LFR drop jack shit and encourage people to move into higher difficulties. It crashed and burned, because the general LFR-going populace is utterly uninterested in normal+ in the first place, so making LFR unattractive just means they won't raid at all. This was also despite WoD raids being the one thing in the expansion that was well made.

[Lynexia]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post45211510

It's not irrelevant.. I'm sure if everyone started using 'she' and assuming everyone was female males would get just as annoyed by it. But because I'm female that makes it a moot point? That's a double standard and straight up sexism in it's worst worm. If you don't know someones gender, use 'they' like a normal person.

I have no idea how can anyone be "burnt out" after heroic unless he's (oh sorry, he/she) not a mythic raider in a non-mythic guild and takes months to clear hc. That person obviously never goes into mythic, so has 3 difficulties at best, not 4. Mythic guilds, even the mediocre ones who finish the tier around 50-70% completion (after all nerfs etc.) clear heroic within 1-2 weeks these days, if that makes anyone burnt out, they're not cut to be a raider who has to farm the same content for months, it was exactly the same in vanilla or tbc, you raided the same raids for months especially since gearing process was much slower and attunements were in place so it took ages to "get ready" for the next tier. Raiding was always consisting of progress + farm, you didn't just kill the endboss once and then quit until next tier because "you've seen the content".

You might actually be dumb. Yes you had to grind before but at the very least you had the comfort that once you were done there wasn't yet another grind at the end. That's how it is now. Even doing on heroic, it might not be too challenging like mythic but it gives you a really good play through, provides an ok challenge and leaves you pretty satisfied that you've cleared the content. After that mythic becomes a slog because you're doing things you've already done. So while in practice it is the same thing, you're seeing the same content more often now and thus there is a much faster burn out after the content.

Back when there were only 2 difficulties you saw the normal content on a quick clear until people were geared and then you had progress towards heroic bosses weekly. and now you do feel forced to do things like normal because they CAN contain upgrades particularly if you have taken a tier off. I've always been asked when not having gear and applying for a guild "Why haven't you been running LFR and Normal for (x) piece"

And I never said it had to be anything to do with BC or Vanilla, But for the record I enjoyed the attunements somewhat when they required quest chains, 5 mans, and things such as keys. It meant you had things to do before raiding and in your down time. The only change is that these keys and attunements should have been battlenet account bound.

Obviously mythic guilds never even bother with LFR because by the time it's open they have next to full heroic gear and don't need items 30 ilvls lower. They only do normal a few times tops in the early weeks, once they start killing more bosses in mythic, they only do mythic + heroic.

Ok that's fair but if you are very unlucky you will be expected to run things you don't want for extra chances at loot.

Somehow you tolerated it in the past even though it was exactly the same thing, farming the same instance every week for months.

See above.

The irony when most mythic raiders don't feel "forced" to run LFR but a person who only does heroic feels "forced to" to be "competitive".

See above also.

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They tried to ''fix'' that issue in WoD, by making LFR drop jack shit and encourage people to move into higher difficulties. It crashed and burned, because the general LFR-going populace is utterly uninterested in normal+ in the first place, so making LFR unattractive just means they won't raid at all. This was also despite WoD raids being the one thing in the expansion that was well made.

Exactly

If you don't have to put in the effort, why put in the effort!

I was a raider because I wanted to see the content, The one extra difficulty offered back in WotLK was a nice addition because you could push the limits of your skill level and was also available on 10 man which meant it was nice and social so the serious side didn't become so draining.

Bottom line,
Why should people see raiding if they aren't willing to put in ANY EFFORT AT ALL.

Having to put in a little effort isn't excluding people, People not willing to put in the effort are excluding themselves.

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Split runs have nothing to do with multiple difficulties because they're done on 1 difficulty (usually heroic). Blizzard said themselves they'd nerf splitruns if they could not impact the rest of the playerbase, but they didn't find any way. Any suggested solution hurts more casuals, pug community and non-split running guilds.

And about trinkets, except Arcano and Convergence which were both broken (arcano still is), there were very very few if any others that would retain their value at low ilvl, most people check sims at comparable ilvl and then end up being disappointed, like a friend of mine who farmed Kingaroth trinket for his Warlock only to sim it after and find out neither lfr nor normal version (without any titanforge) is not an upgrade over some 960 trinket from weekly m+ cache he already had.

And things like Convergence or Whispers wouldn't be obtainable from LFR until 2,5 months into the tier. By that time competitive guilds would be mostly done with the content.

Anyway if someone runs LFR or normal for an item they miss and is so important they really want it, what's better, them getting the lfr/normal version or not any at all and just being at the mercy of main run drops? It's an option and I haven't seen anyone in my life persecuted for not running LFR. Not getting your weekly ring upgrade in HFC, weekly m+ chest in Legion or weekly pantheon upgrade in Antorus, yea, a bit. But not to the point the person would be benched / kicked. Mostly made jokes of. But LFR? Never seen.

Why are people like you stuck on competitive guilds? That has nothing to do with it. Not every guild that goes into mythic is a competitive guild, they are just a progressive. it might take them months to do it and rngesus might have a vendetta on you making so YES you do have to run LFR.

[Frolk]

My issue has always been, I want to see and beat the content on one or maybe 2 difficulties. 4 is just too many it get's old.

You dont need to do all 4, u can do just 2 of the 4, i just do HC and mythic, meanwhile some do LFR/norm and others norm/hc, not many does all 4 all the time.

[Seramore]

Why are people always trying to re-invent the wheel? The state of raiding difficulties is fine, and has been fine for years.

[ddengster]

Multiple smaller raids? You're gonna kill the development team with that kind of workload. And if they do, you'd start complaining about the quality of the raids. The only way I'd see this working on a single difficulty is the onyxia/magtheridon style raids.

[alexchaos]

I still think to this day that LFR is the worst game system they added since CATA. I was never a hardcore gamer, my guild has always been pretty casual and we've always been able to clear normal content by raiding 2-4 hours a week. Now that normal is so easy we "became an heroic clearing guild" with the same amount of time per week and we clear heroic even faster than we were clearing normal back then.

People can argue that the players themselves became better and know most mechanics since blizz has been reusing some, but the fact is it raids are easier than back then. The jump between heroic and mythics is really big compared to what normal to heroic was back then. Also the 20 man restriction is quite hard to achieve on a casual raiding guild so it automatically rules mythic raiding out. (We've always been a 10man raiding guild and now averaging ~15-17man on good nights since WoD)

If I was able to to see the full content of normal raiding in 2-4 hours of per week of raiding back then, why is it LFR is a must have now? Queueing as DPS takes about 20-30mins to get into a group and doing all wings takes about that 2-3 hours per week. People not having enough time to do normal raiding is bullshit, they just don't want to do any efforts. Heck when you have the normal difficulty on farm it takes less time to clear than to do LFR now because bosses in LFR have much more HP.

With normal being so easily puggable now they should remove LFR OR Normal difficulty so that there's one tier of ilvl less affecting the power creep.

[Jastall]

Exactly

If you don't have to put in the effort, why put in the effort!

I was a raider because I wanted to see the content, The one extra difficulty offered back in WotLK was a nice addition because you could push the limits of your skill level and was also available on 10 man which meant it was nice and social so the serious side didn't become so draining.

Bottom line,
Why should people see raiding if they aren't willing to put in ANY EFFORT AT ALL.

Having to put in a little effort isn't excluding people, People not willing to put in the effort are excluding themselves.

Because it's a game and not everybody consumes content the same way. Some seek the highest challenges, Mythic is for them. Heroic is for less skilled guilds and more organized pugs. Normal is the easy organized mode. LFR is for no-strings-attached queues, alts and such. The four difficulties cater to different kind of players, which Blizzard has to do in order to retain them, you're not supposed to actually do all 4 difficulties unless you're a masochist, and no, one lucky TF from LFR or Normal once in a blue moon isn't going to do shit for your progression if you're stuck on a boss months after Mythic releases, especially in Antorus which has no real gear check boss until Argus.

I don't care if LFR players ''deserve'' to see the content or whatnot. They want to see it and they don't want to deal with a guild or pugs, and some days I really understand why. Thus, Blizzard made LFR for them which shot participation way up and justified more resources put in raids. It's accessible to literally everyone. There's nothing wring with that, most games have easy modes, don't see why WoW should be special.

Should have known that any conversation about ''multiple raids'' is really just another LFR bashing thread.

[oplawlz]

The only thing it created was more hoops to jump through for new and returning players to get back to raiding, and for guilds to replenish their roster. That created the situation that many started the journey but very very few ever finished it. Guild poaching and cannibalizing each other was the dark side of that coveted "old school sense of community".
. . .

I think this would be much less of an issue with flex raiding and xrealm though.

[Elfezen]

You have to understand that every raid needs to have Raid Finder option otherwise the majority will not be able to access is so there's no point for Blizzard to design it, if they made a new raid without raid finder option it would be a big loss for them

[Marrilaife]

Why are people like you stuck on competitive guilds?

Because if you aren't in competitive environment, then there is no "I must do this to remain competitive". Somehow tons of people play this game casually on various levels of difficulty and don't feel "forced" to do stuff.

[alexchaos]

You have to understand that every raid needs to have Raid Finder option otherwise the majority will not be able to access is so there's no point for Blizzard to design it, if they made a new raid without raid finder option it would be a big loss for them

That's actually not true. LFR has become so toxic that I'm pretty sure it's not enjoyable for anyone doing it to see the content. First time doing the raid and want to see that cutscene? Too bad everyone went ahead and pulled the next boss and they kicked you because your character didn't move.

Also the fights are so easy that even tho you learn the story it feels like the big bad guys that should be able to destroy Azeroth are weak as fuck.

Normal is so easy now that anyone that doesn't put in the effort to find a group shouldn't be able to see the content. It doesn't take more time to find a group for normal than to wait the LFR queue.

[munkeyinorbit]

I would love to see a model that offered more raids at time like in BC..

Kara, ZA. SSC, Mag, Gruul, BT...there was so much variety

I kinda miss the 7 nights week raiding I did back then

All of those raids were not "available" to the public until at 2.4 right? You know that you have basically said

I would love to see a model that offered more raids at time like in Legion..

EN, ToV. Nighthold, ToS, Burning Throne ...there was so much variety

I kinda miss the 7 nights week raiding I did back then

[Lynexia]

Because if you aren't in competitive environment, then there is no "I must do this to remain competitive". Somehow tons of people play this game casually on various levels of difficulty and don't feel "forced" to do stuff.

not. everyone. is. in. raiding. for. competition!

But they still want to clear mythic or gear their character with some really nice gear. The 4 difficulty makes burnout set in really fast for all but the most dedicated guilds and this isn't how it should be. The solution is mythic plus raids, but that will never happen because blizzard wants to make everything a gimmick these days.

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All of those raids were not "available" to the public until at 2.4 right? You know that you have basically said

I see what you did with that quote, but you're not too smart. Nobody runs anything old anymore.

I would rather 0 catchup mechanics so that I could do the earlier raids and work my way up. I wouldn't complain then.

[Guffnat]

Remove titanforging.

Keep LFR. Merge Normal and Heroic. Add a keystone feature to Mythic Raids. Gear for Mythic+ Raids will scale depending on keystone level.

[Deleted]

I quitted Mythic raiding during Tomb, so now I see things from a more casual perspective, and I think 4 difficulties are definitely overkill.
The system needs a better stratification, right now I feel the current Normal has no place in the game while each difficulty should be aiming at a specific player group. I would like to return to the old model:
LFR (flex) -> casual players
Normal (flex) -> regular players
Heroic -> hardcore players

Bring back LFR to MoP levels, so it can offer a minum of challenge and be an actual stepping stone for raiding, and make Normal/Heroic be the current Heroic/Mythic.

Mythic+ is a system that balance itself, so I would leave it as it is now.

[Allenschezar]

At the moment i'm raiding mythic content in a really casually fassion. Sitting at 4/11.

Nobody in the guild expects anyone to do any other difficulty than the one we're actively raiding (mythic). We have an extra Raid for Heroic wich is totally optional and can be used to gear alts etc.

While i don't even care for heroic anymore i think it's still needed. I like the way mythic unlocks a week later than heroic. It's a good way to see the raid and not be bothered by anything difficult. So i guess one less difficult mode other than mythic is good.

LFR also is needed for people who can't be bothered learning tactics or even how to play their class properly. Or maybe people who are only interested in story.

I think Normal mode falls into the category i would like to see retired from the game. I don't see a regular LFR raider suddenly going and stepping up into the real raiding scene. So i think Normal is a step that's not needed anymore.

For Mythic itself i liked the 10 / 25 man versions way more than the locked in 20 man version. I like smaller groups way better. So i would like to have a difficulty for a solid 10 man raid. Not the shitshow that is flex. I don't care that 10 man didn't matter in terms of the hardcore raiders. I really liked it. It also is not a matter of not being able to get 20 people in a raid. If that would be an issue i wouldn't raid mythic. But the simple fact i enjoy content for smaller groups way more.

But i know these things won't happen so i will continue raiding mythic the way it is and do heroic in the first week.

[baskev]

Blizzard brought in LFR because a vast majority of the player base weren't doing the raids.

So I doubt something that was made to increase the raiding population is the reason why it is "dying". (it isn't)

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Mythic is 20, not 25.

Besides, some bosses were easier or harder on 10 man compared to 25 man. Heroic Thok in SoO was a joke on 25m due to having more (and bigger range) of healing cd's. You could stay in phase 1 longer than on 10 man.

We kinda have cata to blame for that though. Since in wrath, 10 and 25 mans rewarded different gear. In Cata, blizzard made it so they dropped the same ilvl gear.

My mistake.

I know. But was this a question about who is best. Or what i liked in number of difficulty's?? ( hint it was the last one).

[Deleted]

I would love to see a model that offered more raids at time like in BC..

Kara, ZA. SSC, Mag, Gruul, BT...there was so much variety

This

I would love to see a re-introduction of raids like the ones I bolded. Short relatively easy instances were fun for the alts on weekends. Good times back in the day.

and this.

More variety -> less boredom -> more fun. Many modes don't make raids more fun, more choices do.

[Dormie]

BC model was superior to all.

[Zogarth]

Rather have all raids remain relevant throughout the expansion like in BC and Vanilla.