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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    If the forums are to be believed, leveling from 1-110 takes up to 42 hours of /played in 7.3.5. My anecdotal evidence suggest that it takes 28 hours, but that's using optimal leveling paths and popping XP potions all the way from 1-85.

    In 42 hours you can also do one or more of the following:
    • Participate in 14 standard raid nights (enough to clear heroic and be anywhere from halfway to 2/3 into clearing mythic)
    • Bring a freshly dinged level 110 character from 800 ilvl to 930 and beyond
    • Achieve 2k+ rating in PvP
    • Complete all meta raid achievements
    • Push a M+ key enough to appear on the leaderboards
    • Watch 20 movies or finish 2 AAA games

    As of 7.3.5, leveling is by far the MOST obnoxious grind in this game. You get to slog through 6 expansions' worth of outdated content at a snail's pace just to reach endgame. Getting your new alt raid-ready is a joke in comparison. People seem to misunderstand why leveling was so fast prior to 7.3.5. When you have an endgame-centered MMO, you can't force people to play through ALL of the outdated content. That's just too big of an investment to unlock the endgame.

    Making zones scale was a step in the right direction, nuking heirlooms and other XP-enhancing items was 10 steps back. I'm not someone who gets discouraged easily; I wiped 500+ times on mythic Kil'Jaeden before killing him. Slogging through outdated content broke me. Listening to hardcore casuals who have the time to level 24/7 but can't play endgame for x reason is BAD. Making leveling 1-110 take 2x or even 3x longer was a dumb decision.
    Someone thinks 42 hours qualifies as a grind. Dear lord.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Karzerus View Post
    The record time for Vanilla leveling was 4 days 20 hours. This amounts to nearly 120 hours of playtime. The average was far higher, yet almost nobody complained back then.

    Now, this new "slow" leveling rate is faster by a rate of triple, and people are whining constantly. I'm really disgusted by this entitled community that's formed from the last 5-6 years of trivialization that's happened to the game.

    Tom Chilton was a fucking idiot for watering down the game this much, and I think Ion Hazzikostas sees that as a huge mistake and is trying to keep it from becoming even more watered down. It's an MMO, geniuses. Shit is supposed to take time. The genre from the get go is not a casual one in comparison to others.
    Nobody complained back then because it was a brand new experience. You cant expect people to behave the same way about a 14 year old game now as they did when it first launched. I've played through the storyline and done the same old boring quests multiple times across a myriad of alts. Making the leveling time longer and breaking the heirlooms was a bad move for someone like me who used to like leveling when it was new nut now hate it. I don't think the OP was wrong in pointing out how tedious leveling is now

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    40 hours is a long time, your subjective opinion isn't any more valid than mine.



    Do you know what a fact is? I'm not entirely sure you do.



    Why is suggesting that a business is making business decisions to make more money a tin foil hat theory? Are you suggesting that Blizzard doesn't want to make more money? Please.



    Sure you will.
    It's not as subjective as you may think. Getting to 40 with just ovet an hour a level IS crazy fast.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Divinexve View Post
    Pretty shitting comparison
    Insta ques with a healer and tank who have looms
    raf
    300% exp potion

    Yeah no shit it takes 5 hours
    None of which really even applies after 7.3.5.

    Sure 300% pots still exist, but not in the quantities or prices to make it a viable method of leveling.

    Exp bonus for completing dungeons was altered. RAF exp bonus was changed (although you can still grant levels), and doesn't stack with Heirloom bonus.

    Basically the method from that video is extinct.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    It's not as subjective as you may think. Getting to 40 with just ovet an hour a level IS crazy fast.
    Levels from 1-60 should average between 15 to 30 minutes with 50% bonus from looms. If it takes you longer then you're doing something wrong.

    People have claimed they can do it faster, but I have yet to see proof that doesn't involve a 300% exp pot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Akachan View Post
    . I don't think the OP was wrong in pointing out how tedious leveling is now
    Not wanting to do something, or not enjoying it, isn't the same thing as tedium.

    The new system allows you to progress through the story of a zone at a somewhat normal pace. The presentation isn't broken because of one-shotting and outleveling everything.

    The fact that you might not personally be interested in the story or the questing doesn't make it "tedious" for everyone.

    And honestly, if you've done it so many times that you're sick of it, then you've probably already got as many alts as you could possibly ever need. And I humbly submit that it wasn't leveling that you enjoyed, but simply having more characters with little effort.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2018-02-06 at 04:09 AM.

  5. #285
    I must be out of the loop. What "hardcore casuals" wanted leveling to be longer?

    Pretty sure blizz made this decision on their own or failed to calculate how their changes affected the leveling time. Either way, I think you are forgetting the root issue with leveling.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Someone thinks 42 hours qualifies as a grind. Dear lord.
    It kind of does.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    Sorry, but you don't speak for everyone.

    And it's funny how Classic leveling is hailed as challenging and "teaching players the ropes of the game" (and players still failed to understand 1-button rotations), when it's literally a case of grinding and killing mobs without mechanics.

    People (even experienced players) die to world mobs once again, it takes more time to level, yet it's the polar opposite still from what made Classic so "challenging" in its leveling content...? Does not compute. The leveling has been MUCH improved upon, the experience far less fractured. It still suffers from mechanics not much better than what Classic had though, which will require an overhaul of the entire experience eventually to bring it up to snuff in terms of visuals and mechanics.

    I've leveled 40+ characters from 1 to max level over the years, the experience I'm having now with the 4 latest additions to my roster, is vastly superior to what it was prior to 7.3.5.
    Who cares if i make a somewhat hyperbolic statement. The community is split on whether or not leveling is superior being slower or faster. Blizzard just cycled which philosophy was on top. Suddenly dying to world mobs once again isn't some deciding factor that the leveling experience is so much better as players(veteran and otherwise) learn how much they can pull. Killing one mob at a time wont kill you. Accidentally pulling more than one, also wont kill you. Classes like Warrior/Warlock/Hunter still play exactly the same as they mechanically can pull whatever they want. The game didnt change at all for classes like that.

    Classic leveling being hailed as challenging isn't some universal belief among the player base. So like you said, you don't speak for everyone.

    That being said leveling now is the polar opposite of what made Vanilla leveling not challenging, but enjoyable. Vanilla leveling was never challenging. It wasn't enjoyable because of its challenge. So of course it doesn't compute. Players are still making that tiresome comparison that Vanilla leveling was fun because it was "challenging" when difficulty had little to do with it.

    WoW was many players first MMO. They experienced getting a rare item for the first time. They experienced grinding a mount. Leveling up their professions. Doing their first dungeon. Joining their first guild. It was gameplay that delivered MANY first time experiences which has a huge effect on why so many players remember it fondly. None of that can be repeated. I didn't know Revenge generated additional threat until after clearing both MC and BWL. The leveling experience didnt teach me anything. But I absolutely loved it due to a plethora of factors.

    I've leveled my share of toons up before the changes and some since and my experience is the opposite of yours. It's dull. What got my dopamine flooding into my system before was how quickly I could level and how efficiently it was, even if it was mechanically empty. When you could walk into Ragefire Chasm at level 10 and solo it for 9 levels due to RAF + Heirlooms, that absurdity was exciting. That efficiency and speed of leveling was exciting for a player like me. So my experience isnt enjoyable anymore because leveling doesn't give me any of the enjoyment that it used to. In Vanilla or any state beyond.

    The leveling experience now, to me, is far worse. And I don't view dying while leveling as some glorious holy universal factor as to what makes leveling suddenly good. It's a shallow mentality.

  7. #287
    Deleted
    If you don't like to level, then maybe MMO's aren't for you.

    People who want instant gratification everywhere are the true plague of the world.

    What my argument boils down to is that you can clear the current raid on mythic in less time than it takes to level 2 characters from 1 to 110 which IMO is bullshit.
    Indeed it is, but in other ways than what you think.

    One miserable feature in the game is that every new raid instantly renders all previous raids obsolete. If you want to "progress", you grind one -- and only one -- raid for a time period ranging from six months to over a year. There's no variety whatsoever, and the retarded item level differences between loot item levels make sure that no one even wants to go back. WoW has tens of once-amazing raids rotting in oblivion. Some other MMO's have less raids in total, but they all yield max level loot and can be played at maximum difficulty if people so wish, because they keep getting updated with new expansions.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    It's not as subjective as you may think. Getting to 40 with just ovet an hour a level IS crazy fast.
    Considering how pointless the 40 hours is, I don't think so. You aren't learning to play, or learning new stuff, you're grinding for the sake of grinding.

    The only argument that holds any ground is the story, but, let's be honest here, no one cares what happened in TBC, WoTLK, Cata, Pandaria or WoD. It's old, stale, and irrelevant to the current end game. It actually does a disservice, because a lot of the story elements don't even match up with what is currently happening, like Deathwing being a threat when he's been dead for years.

    All leveling does it introduce you to the game, your character, and the game's systems. Making that take longer is just artificially extending content for the sake of extending it, which is something Blizzard has done as a primary business goal for over a decade.
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    I am ACTUALLY ASKING for them to ban me and relieve me from the misery of this thread.

  9. #289
    Deleted
    For these scrubs plebs kidos in chat which obviously did not played vanilla.DO NOT WANT TO SPENT XYZ on leveling BUY A BOOST you pleb.You can totally ignore it JUST BUY A BOOST YOU pleb.I like lvling finally i have to use a brain doing that such a chill gameplay from mythic progress and high m+ pushing real chill.

  10. #290
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by --Code-- View Post
    For the people like myself that have played the game for 10+ years and leveled literally dozens of characters to max level, why the hell would I be interested in the leveling aspect of the game being slower?
    My question is if you've leveled "dozens of characters to max level" why the hell are you still leveling new ones?

  11. #291
    "Hardcore casuals" is a contradiction in itself. Guys, you're getting trolled.


    Dev for NEO Impossible Bosses, an RTS-MOBA Raidboss rush game!

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Someone thinks 42 hours qualifies as a grind. Dear lord.
    Name one other grind in this game that takes 42 hours to complete.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    None of which really even applies after 7.3.5.

    Sure 300% pots still exist, but not in the quantities or prices to make it a viable method of leveling.

    Exp bonus for completing dungeons was altered. RAF exp bonus was changed (although you can still grant levels), and doesn't stack with Heirloom bonus.

    Basically the method from that video is extinct.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Levels from 1-60 should average between 15 to 30 minutes with 50% bonus from looms. If it takes you longer then you're doing something wrong.

    People have claimed they can do it faster, but I have yet to see proof that doesn't involve a 300% exp pot.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Not wanting to do something, or not enjoying it, isn't the same thing as tedium.

    The new system allows you to progress through the story of a zone at a somewhat normal pace. The presentation isn't broken because of one-shotting and outleveling everything.

    The fact that you might not personally be interested in the story or the questing doesn't make it "tedious" for everyone.

    And honestly, if you've done it so many times that you're sick of it, then you've probably already got as many alts as you could possibly ever need. And I humbly submit that it wasn't leveling that you enjoyed, but simply having more characters with little effort.
    It's tedious because its dull, monotonous, and boring. It's doing the same thing I've done in the past multiple times, except now it takes longer. I believe this is the accurate meaning for tedium?

    I enjoyed leveling my first time through, hell, even my 5th time through. But after 14 years and multiple playthroughs? It's a tedious chore. If it wasnt dor the heritage armor I wouldnt even have bothered.

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Name one other grind in this game that takes 42 hours to complete.
    Rep grind to unlock the races...

  15. #295
    When you take into account speed of leveling you have to factor in the class you are leveling. Not all classes get the right abilities at the right time and sometimes key abilities for interesting gameplay are split into multiple parts along the way. Having a healer or tank makes dungeon queues faster, making it possible to specific queue for ones with quests which seems to be more efficient leveling than random queue.

    So great, you got your slow leveling system to make it "feel" better for some people, but what about actually teaching them how to play their class. The number of hunters I've had to teach how to turn off growl, or the ones that jump off the start of gnomer only to leave their pet out to wipe the group. People using abilities in the wrong order or not understanding the play between them so their damage is lacking. Tank that pull way too much, don't use or even have active mitigation at the time and what's a cooldown? We won't even talk about disc priests not understanding atonement. There is a lot more than can be done to make the leveling process better for all that doesn't involve a work weeks worth of time.

    edit: I should mention how alt and new main unfriendly this expansion has been and this is just another road block for those that have/want to do that.
    Last edited by Gaimen; 2018-02-06 at 06:59 AM.

  16. #296
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    If the forums are to be believed, leveling from 1-110 takes up to 42 hours of /played in 7.3.5. My anecdotal evidence suggest that it takes 28 hours, but that's using optimal leveling paths and popping XP potions all the way from 1-85.

    In 42 hours you can also do one or more of the following:
    • Participate in 14 standard raid nights (enough to clear heroic and be anywhere from halfway to 2/3 into clearing mythic)
    • Bring a freshly dinged level 110 character from 800 ilvl to 930 and beyond
    • Achieve 2k+ rating in PvP
    • Complete all meta raid achievements
    • Push a M+ key enough to appear on the leaderboards
    • Watch 20 movies or finish 2 AAA games

    As of 7.3.5, leveling is by far the MOST obnoxious grind in this game. You get to slog through 6 expansions' worth of outdated content at a snail's pace just to reach endgame. Getting your new alt raid-ready is a joke in comparison. People seem to misunderstand why leveling was so fast prior to 7.3.5. When you have an endgame-centered MMO, you can't force people to play through ALL of the outdated content. That's just too big of an investment to unlock the endgame.

    Making zones scale was a step in the right direction, nuking heirlooms and other XP-enhancing items was 10 steps back. I'm not someone who gets discouraged easily; I wiped 500+ times on mythic Kil'Jaeden before killing him. Slogging through outdated content broke me. Listening to hardcore casuals who have the time to level 24/7 but can't play endgame for x reason is BAD. Making leveling 1-110 take 2x or even 3x longer was a dumb decision.
    You are saying that you are/were a mythic raider. Don't you ppl need multiple raid ready toons to be able to swap anytime if it's necessary?

    If you need more than 4-5 max level alts, then you must be a completionist in that matter, because this amount is enough to cover all professions and roles. If you really need more toons, you'll level them nonetheless, or you have at least 1 of each class at max level for now (or at least on 90 or 100).

    How long have you been playing this game? We have lvl90 lvl100 lvl110 for more than 5 years now. 90 to 110 or 100 to 110 is much shorter than leveling a new toon. Again, at this point you must have at least 4-5 or more alts at lvl90 or higher. Just dust them off and do those 20 levels if you are too lazy to start a new one.

    Want to level an allied race? Free boost comes with the new expansion.

    Are you worried about the new players? I'm sure, for the first time they play the game, they won't care about how long it takes to max level, because they want/need to explore the game first, before jumping into endgame. They also have the free boost option though.

    TL;DR:
    • Vets must have at least 4-5 or more characters at lvl90 or higher, so they just have to make those 20 levels to the endgame.
    • New players won't care about end game for the first time they join.
    • All have the free boost option.


    I don't see the issue here.

  17. #297
    I'll literally never level to 110 again.

    The least amount of time it is going to take me is 30 hours. A boost is what, $60? So I value my time at $2 an hour by not boosting?

    Honestly, who in their right mind values their time at $2 an hour?

  18. #298
    @Sonol, as far as I know you cannot get the heritage armor if you boost, so that's out of the question. What if someone went to another server because they changed guilds and can't afford to bring all 12 characters with them? Also, mythic raider != hardcore raider. Those pushing content and going for world first will likely have multiple character they play for any given time but mythic raiding is a spectrum of devotion. I'm a mythic raider, though have only done about half of the current raid, but only have 1 max level character on my current server because my last guild fell apart.

    There is a middle ground here people. They could have made leveling more difficult and take more exp without nerfing the +exp stacking that was possible for those that want to spend the money/gold and make the process faster. Sure overall it would take more time but the option to maximize speed, like the RAF nerf, was not needed at all. Could have easily gave people an option to not get the RAF exp bonus if that's how people want to play. Forcing someone into something always has a losing side.

  19. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by haxedagain View Post
    I'll literally never level to 110 again.

    The least amount of time it is going to take me is 30 hours. A boost is what, $60? So I value my time at $2 an hour by not boosting?

    Honestly, who in their right mind values their time at $2 an hour?
    Fucking RPG's and requiring me to level... I truly loathe what the MMORPG community has turned into. I liked it better when it was niche and the instant gratification crowd never even considered playing them.
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  20. #300
    I still have to understand if people happy with 7.3:5 are happy because of scaling or because of leveling takes more time.

    And also why we can’t have both scaling and fast leveling so that everyone is happy.

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