More affliction nerfs... needed?

[avahle]

Also lol at tard who thinks Destruction is bad or something, it is only the second best ranged damage dealer spec in game.

Depends on context. In raids, yeah. In M+, not really.

[Tradu]

It's pretty amazing that they keep nerfing Agony/Corruption(which only really affects multiDoT scenarios) instead of addressing the thing that makes Affliction fundamentally broken, which is the absurd scaling with adds. More shards and more souls just break the "balance" of the Affliction artifact, because it's not tuned around being fed adds constantly. Varimathras is a great example of this. On heroic, Affliction is towards the bottom. On mythic, the fight turns into an Affliction orgy, thanks to the constant stream of adds.

- - - Updated - - -

I am not really sure if a damage nerf really was necessary, at least not without a compensation. WL damage is strong, but it's not beyond reason and yes, several fights of the current raid do favour them. Try leveling a affliction lock, it hardly does any damage (you need 3 UA per single mob to kill it @67), while a single chaos bolt still onehits.

But what needed a nerf obviously is the broken self heal, 2.5m ticks were beyond ridiculous. I am not sure if the current nerf is enough, since it just nerfs the bonus from the artifact weapon, but the base heal of 280% from drain soul alone is still completely broken and untouched.

Just like the previous 2 tiers. Affliction's "niche" is just too broad, because the niche isn't just "sustained multiDoT", it's also "adds exist", which has been a pretty common mechanic in raids for the past few expansions.

[Deleted]

I personally think it is a little overboard, considering they've been nerfed three times already and are still middle of the pack ST DPS wise. Especially with the heal. If you're "draining life" shouldn't you be able to heal decently from it? Mythic + groups love bringing Aff locks for their consistent damage and ability to self heal when needed. If you didn't want them to heal, you shouldn't have built their entire fucking spec around draining life constantly. Our 2/3 target fights are where we shine, but any/all multi-dot classes do. Hell, a "good" SP will wreck us in a straight 2 target fight.

Midpack?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

The strongest multi target spec should be the lowest on single target. With affli scaling so strong with additional targets, being pretty high at single target is too strong.

[GreenJesus]

Absolute corruption is the problem here. When there are bosses that can be cleaved like coven or dogs, it creates a situation where dozens of GCDs aren't used refreshing a dot and instead are spent channeling drain soul. On fights where multiple targets stay alive for a long time aff lock is going to be broken overpowered. Blizzard needs to redesign absolute corruption and instead of infinite length maybe change it to last 8 extra seconds and deal more damage.

On mythic coven, a 30% parse aff lock (very below average) beats a 100% parse UH DK (best UH dk parse in the world). How is that balanced? Classes should have an advantage on certain mechanics but not to such a drastic point.

Then, aff locks also do 300k HPS on top of that.

Nerfs were warranted. Our guild was about to do attempts on mythic coven and our guild is requiring some of our melee dps to switch to aff lock for that fight.

[Tradu]

Absolute corruption is the problem here. When there are bosses that can be cleaved like coven or dogs, it creates a situation where dozens of GCDs aren't used refreshing a dot and instead are spent channeling drain soul. On fights where multiple targets stay alive for a long time aff lock is going to be broken overpowered. Blizzard needs to redesign absolute corruption and instead of infinite length maybe change it to last 8 extra seconds and deal more damage.

Affliction is also broken on fights with multiple short lived targets. Really the only thing Affliction doesn't do amazingly on is pure ST, and even then it's not horrible.

[Gleem]

Can we not use the statistical outliers of the playerbase to influence general spec decisions here? Look at the 50-75th percentile range for normal and heroic raids if you're going to look at Aff's status in raids. Anything in the top 100 is almost guaranteed to be cheesed to hell and back, as it's people specifically trying to rank, and usually involves strats that exist purely to maximize DPS. Mythic is also not the general playerbase, nor is the top 1% of the people doing heroic. They are not representative of the average player at all, and thus not representative of the spec.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist.../#difficulty=3

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist.../#difficulty=4

Aff is at the top or second.

Now look at specific single target, like Varimathras

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ty=3&boss=2069

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ty=4&boss=2069

Aff is mediocre.

Now look exclusively at sustained AoE such as Felhounds

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ty=3&boss=2074

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ty=4&boss=2074

Aff does fantastic, and competes only with shadow.

Affliction should be one of the top specs for multi-target fights. It's literally designed for sustained spread multi-target encounters. That is where Aff should be king. But the numbers are a bit too ahead of the pack (as is shadow).

Both aff and shadow should have their sustained multi-dot reeled in a bit. Both specs should ensure that they don't lose single target damage when they're reeled in for multi-dot sustained.

While aff (and shadow) do need a bit of a nerf as they're a bit too far ahead, they should still be at the top for encounters with a lot of spread out targets with a long lifespan. That's literally the design of their spec. And, unfortunately, most of Antorus is tailored to that kind of playstyle. Coven and Felhounds should see them at the top easily. Argus has a long add phase that will pad their numbers. Eonar shouldn't even be mentioned as a fight. Portal keeper, especially on heroic and up, lots of adds that will at least have enough of a life span to warrant dots. High Command have a lot of adds that often live too long because people are bad at killing adds. Same thing with Aggramar, really. Imonar, unending affliction is really strong, as you can have some damage rolling at all times when crossing the bridge. Same thing with Kin'garoth and adds with a bonus to damage, plus the eternal damage on the boss, even reduced, is still extra damage.

There's just a ton of fights where Aff has a lot of change to hit several things, or hit things when other players can't, and the damage reflects that. It's strong on all but 2 fights, and it's incredibly strong on 2 fights. But other than Coven and Felhounds, aff isn't the leader of the pack. It's around 6th place or lower. And a fight that Varimathras, it tanks super hard.

So, again, reel in the multi-dotting just a bit so they're still top on fights like Coven/Felhounds, but not 20% over 3rd place, and then make sure they aren't affected too hard pure single target. And also maybe tell Blizzard to not design an entire raid tier that plays to Aff's strengths. That's a far more holistic view of warlocks.

[Arainie]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...74&dataset=100

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&difficulty=4

Max dps, meaning when someone is playing their class to their full potential, not a lot of "bad" players, not playing well. 400k difference between one of the best SP and one of the best locks on mythic. Over 500k on Heroic. Stop trying to pander to a crowd here. You're full of shit.

I never said locks were bad, or weak, just the nerfs were a bit much considering they've been nerfed three times prior, plus a previous tier set was also nerfed because it was better than t21. They nerfed a set to force players to use the new set, because the old set was better.

I just described why the max log isn't representative of anything (and is purely RNG which you'd know if you had ever played shadow and had 3 tentaclebros boosting you well past 60 stacks once in a blue moon), while the 99th percentile log is based on a few hundred incredibly good results each and is thus much closer to maximal performance under realistic circumstances. The 90th percentile is probably an even better representation if what good players do with their class than the minimal 99th. If you fail to grasp that it's on your end and not mine. /palm

[Azelas]

The amount of people who cant read a log to save their fucking lives is actually incredible.

Yes, it was needed, especially the self heal, that shit's ridiculous.

[Deleted]

I really hope they change Affliction in BFA, it's always like this at the end of an expansion.
At first they are medicore at best, and especially bad when it comes to content where mobs die fast.
Their scaling is just too strong at higher gear levels, where as it is bad with almost no gear.

[Cainium]

The "problem" with aff is that the toolkit is decent at everything, above average on most things and super good on their niche where aff is supposed to be good.

I say "problem" in quotes 'cause there have been many iteration of aff lock in the past, and from my experience, the most unneccessary thing in the game is multitarget damage. That was affs niche as far as I remember, but priority burst damage, cleave damage on small adds, execute damage, high ST damage, are overall much more useful.

Mobility and immunity is more useful than selfheal in the overall picture, so being "tanky" as the defensive niche for locks will either be "OP" as soon as it is "useful" and can help the groups healer or the lock sustain through more damage, or it is a useless gimick for which "real" helpful utility (like mentioned before) has to be sacrificed.

Removing the damage boost from dying adds, removing the selfheal but not giving mobility back, and not solving the problen between good ST damage and OP multitarget damage, aff will be like it has been back in the past: Good for council, bad on everything else.

If they solve these problems, aff is considerd "OP" like it is now.

And I dobut that they'll find the "sweet spot" for BfA. Aff wil be garbage at the beginning of the expansion, and either garbage or OP at the end, depending how much they consider the proprosed "weaknesses" of the class as a problem and redesign it during BfA like they did during legion.

[Deleted]

They are not representative of the average player at all, and thus not representative of the spec.

You are wrong. People playing the spec incorrectly (which they are if they are at 50-75th percentile on heroic and normal) are not representing the spec correctly, lol...

90th percentile on mythic is a good indicator of a spec's performance, higher than that you will run into cheese strats, lower than that you will run into people not having a clue of what they are doing. What matters to determine a spec's worth is not what the average bad can do with it, but what the top players in a non-cheese strat can do with it.

[asil]

Midpack?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

The strongest multi target spec should be the lowest on single target. With affli scaling so strong with additional targets, being pretty high at single target is too strong.

My favorite part of this is how you linked veri, a fight that is absolutely not "single target" as affliction. You're getting funneled souls and shards from the adds.

Why didn't you link gorothi, an actual single target fight?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

Oh wait, we know why.

Even when we drop to heroic veri, a fight without adds, a different story unfolds:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...s&difficulty=4

[Dastey]

I mean....I've been pushing content in Legion since day one and I can't recall a single Destro lock I've run with in any instance at any level that I found to be "competitive." They're doing about as much damage as Mages are, which is to say not very much. They're far too reliant on unforgiving mechanics and rotational lock-ins that work great in theory, and horribly when actually put into practice in a boss fight or with affixes. Simple movement requirements cause the spec to hemorrhage damage.

Not trying to tell people not to play it, and I'm not even saying it's a shit spec - but its lackluster damage output is NOT just in comparison to Affliction... it's in comparison to basically everyone...

But hey - it's still doing more damage than Demo so....
Little victories?

Well personal experiences doesn't really make it statistically significant.
But if we are speaking about personal experiences I am basically always in the top 5 of my raid, that consists of 2 monks and 3 affliction warlocks. Most of the time I'm in top 2.
Granted I am performing 99-100th percentiles at most times and they are not.

Point being, while affliction is obviously the better specc, destruction is completely viable and is still amongst the stronger speccs in the game at the moment.
But if you compare it to an affliction warlock at same percentiles it will obviously lack behind on most encounters.

[FelPlague]

Corruption and agony nerfed by 6% and Long Dark Night of the Soul (self heal) nerfed by 70%

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ce-Reputations

yes because it really was overpowered and still will be really, it will drop a few things down the list, but it will be fine. still will beat out demo even on a 1 target fight

[antelope591]

There's actually people in this thread seriously arguing that Aff Locks weren't insanely broken LMAO....even with 6% nerf they'll still be by far the #1 dps class overall. These forums are good for some laughs that's for sure.

[evertonbelmontt]

The part where they say Drain Soul trait remains unchanged for PVP is only for instanced pvp, it seems. I really felt this nerf in wpvp.

[BraveNewWorld]

Aff was the worst spec in the game until 7.1.5/7.2, so to say "all of legion", is just being a d-bag. It's also factually untrue.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...n=1&dataset=90

I'm looking at the bottom and I can't see affliction. Where is it? Affliction was dead last the first 2 weeks of EN maybe? They've been shining at the top ever since.

[Swampmoose]

You are wrong. People playing the spec incorrectly (which they are if they are at 50-75th percentile on heroic and normal) are not representing the spec correctly, lol...

90th percentile on mythic is a good indicator of a spec's performance, higher than that you will run into cheese strats, lower than that you will run into people not having a clue of what they are doing. What matters to determine a spec's worth is not what the average bad can do with it, but what the top players in a non-cheese strat can do with it.

Entirely incorrect. For starters, the 90th percentile in Mythic makes up a very small percentage of players so this group is borderline a statistical outlier and hardly a means to determine a "spec's worth". Second, I don't know where you get this assumption that players in the 50th-75th percentile are bad. I've had a few 90th+ fights for my ilvl, but being a filthy casual, my ilvl is very low so overall I'm closer to the 50th percentile for the class. That doesn't mean I play my spec incorrectly. I've also raided with some pretty bad players at higher levels too so yes, sometimes people with higher ilvls who play poorly will fall into that 50th-75th range as well. I also have a crap legendary in one slot, so someone of an equal ilvl with a much better legendary may have a clear dps advantage there as well. The larger the group of players you look at, the more you eliminate these types of anomalies.

[ydraw]

So based on this train of thought, it could be surmised that the m+ tournament is possibly the biggest factor for these changes. I still feel the BfA argument is valid but whatever.

There's like 120 guilds who have killed mythic argus. The expansion isn't yet over for most people.

[gioderpington]

What world do you exist in? lmao

Apparently a world where affliction locks needed a buff lol
The ones I raid with don't seem to do as well? But I guess solo'n eonar kinda provides evidence that it's just the ones I play with lol