Tinker Class Concept 2018 (long)

[Teriz]

Also quick on my side
could have alot of races
Gnome and goblin obvious
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orcs could have an iron horde looking mech
draenei could have a crystaline mech like the draenei machines we see
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and the less likely but still possible
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dwarves could have runic stone mechs, like large walking golems
and undead could have rickety ones of metal and wood. covered in vials and alchemical vases
OR
blood elves could have ones based on the crystal mechs they made.
that way it could be gnome/goblin, orc/dwarf, belf/draenei

think of it like how the shaman and paladins have their racial differences

That's all definitely a possibility. For the sake of this thread I limited it to Gnomes and Goblins in order to show some possible differentiation between the races.

[Recom]

Nice effort man ! I'd really like tinker, it would add a lot of flavor (unlike DH).

[Teriz]

Yeah but if you're arguing that a Necromancer is a Death Knight, then you're only saying we shouldn't have another Death Knight class. I agree, and fundamentally a Necromancer class would not be a Death Knight.

You haven't really established what makes a DK and a Necromancer different from each other. It's already been established that a Necromancer doesn't need to be a ranged spell caster, and its been established that there's nothing that a WC-based Necromancer can do that a DK can't do.

I guess in the end, we'll just have to see what Blizzard does. I hope for the sake of the game, they avoid producing another class that takes an inordinate amount of concepts from existing class.

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Nice talents so far!

Thanks for that. I appreciate it!

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Nice effort man ! I'd really like tinker, it would add a lot of flavor (unlike DH).

Thanks, and I agree, it would definitely add some flavor, and give people a reason to actually roll Goblins and Gnomes.

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I know it might be a new thing for you Teriz, but its is natural to include new things into a class/race/character in any game.

You get ideas that weren't present in the game/story and introduce it or reinvent what already exist.

You, on the other hand, only see the Necromancer as being the exact copy of the Dk.You even said that they need to havel a Blood, Frost and Uh spec.When there is no indication that this is the case, this is the Dk Lore, not Necromancer.It would be like saying a Dh needed to have a Destruction/Demonology/Affliction spec just because "demons".

Well if we look at the origin of the DK class and its design, it came from the entire UD faction of WC3. The DK had such a great theme because there was no Necromancer in the game at the time, and the DK had the entire scourge theme to work with.

For example:

Death Knight became the foundation of the Unholy spec (Death Pact, Death Coil, Unholy Aura)
Lich became the foundation of the Frost spec (Death and Decay, Frost spells/abilities)
Dreadlord became the foundation of the Blood spec (Vampiric Aura)

Then you simply expand those themes.
Crypt Lord adds a spell where DKs summon insects (eventually removed)
Necromancer unit adds Raise Dead and Unholy Aura.
Ghouls become summonable units.
Banshee adds Anti-Magic Shell
Gargolyes become a summonable unit.
Abominations' Disease cloud becomes the basis of disease abilities and later Abominations become summonable.
Frost Wyrms add more basis for Frost spells, and also later become summonable

And so forth...

I mean, all of that is the Necromancer concept in a nutshell. Some of the concepts from that faction also ended up in the Warlock class (Cripple, Infernal, etc). In order to create a Necromancer concept separate from what the DK absorbed would mean that you would have to go outside of Warcraft to pull concepts from.

[Darktbs]

Dreadlord became the foundation of the Blood spec (Vampiric Aura)

So, if Blizzard magically turned a Vampiric Aura into a full blood based spec?Why can't they do it again?

Why can't they pick one thing, like, the Lich npcs can also use Arcane spells, the lore says that many were mages that turned to Necromancy in search of greater power or immortality.You can safely create a Lich spec which embodies Shadowfrost, Corrupted Arcane, Necrotic blue fire, Shadow magic and roll with it.

It does not conflict with the Dk because they can't do any of this and doesn't collide with the Mage because you're just using the Warcraft magic type and not the Mage spells and thematic.

In order to create a Necromancer concept separate from what the DK absorbed would mean that you would have to go outside of Warcraft to pull concepts from.

And this is a bad thing why?

It is a common thing to do, hell Monks received the Celestial in their tool kit but there was no indication of any of them prior to MoP

[Teriz]

So, if Blizzard magically turned a Vampiric Aura into a full blood based spec?Why can't they do it again?

Why can't they pick one thing, like, the Lich npcs can also use Arcane spells, the lore says that many were mages that turned to Necromancy in search of greater power or immortality.You can safely create a Lich spec which embodies Shadowfrost, Corrupted Arcane, Necrotic blue fire, Shadow magic and roll with it.

It does not conflict with the Dk because they can't do any of this and doesn't collide with the Mage because you're just using the Warcraft magic type and not the Mage spells and thematic.

The problem is that people don't roll a necromancer to perform "Necrotic blue fire" (whatever the hell that is). They roll a Necromancer to summon undead minions. DKs already do that on multiple levels, to the point where you would have to remove it from DKs in order to bring a Necromancer into the game.

And this is a bad thing why?

It is a common thing to do, hell Monks received the Celestial in their tool kit but there was no indication of any of them prior to MoP

Except Pandaria was an entirely new thing in MoP. We've already been to Northrend, and we've already fought the scourge. Blizzard already incorporated Necromancers into the DK class.

[Digory Kirke]

GREAT thread OP! Yes please!

[Thimagryn]

You haven't really established what makes a DK and a Necromancer different from each other. It's already been established that a Necromancer doesn't need to be a ranged spell caster, and its been established that there's nothing that a WC-based Necromancer can do that a DK can't do.

Poison based spells, turning into a Lich, spider themes, summoning skeletons beyond generic warrior types.

Until the Death Knight does all of the above, what is listed is different. Warlocks having Death spells is also different from a Death Knight because they don't actually have those spells.

[Teriz]

GREAT thread OP! Yes please!

Thanks man! Stay tuned, I have more updates coming.

[Darktbs]

The problem is that people don't roll a necromancer to perform "Necrotic blue fire" (whatever the hell that is). They roll a Necromancer to summon undead minions. DKs already do that on multiple levels, to the point where you would have to remove it from DKs in order to bring a Necromancer into the game.

You never been to icc?The blue fires on the walls?

People wanted a Brewmaster to fight with staff and beers.We got a kung fu fighter and a mist healer.

People wanted a Dk to a Dark warrior that summons undead, we got a Vampiric warrior and a warrior of the NOrth.

Just because people want one thing doesn't mean you can introduce more(is actually good, even for your own concept Teriz,just saying)you can let Uh Dks stay the same and have a Necromancer be based around necromancy differently, even undead summoning.After all, Dks have their unique thematic, Necromancers can haver theirs.

Except Pandaria was an entirely new thing in MoP. We've already been to Northrend, and we've already fought the scourge. Blizzard already incorporated Necromancers into the DK class.

Necromancy is not just Scourge.I m tired of repeating this,we have trolls, shadowlands, draeneis, orcs, we even had a new quest in game that took us to the shadowlands.

The Dk will always be a Scourge Dk.

The Necromancer can be something else entirely, not just Scourge.Reason why even after the end of Wrath we have non-scourge related Necromancy.

And again, Why its a problem to take inspiration from somewhere else?You have not explained why is this a problem?

[Teriz]

Poison based spells, turning into a Lich, spider themes, summoning skeletons beyond generic warrior types.

Except no Necromancer in WC has shown to do any of that stuff. For example, can you point to a NPC Necromancer in WoW who has an ability to instantly transform into a Lich for a short time?

Until the Death Knight does all of the above, what is listed is different. Warlocks having Death spells is also different from a Death Knight because they don't actually have those spells.

Warlock death spells revolve around their Afflictions, which could have been a Necromancer spec if Warlocks didn't get it first.

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You never been to icc?The blue fires on the walls?

Now we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel....

People wanted a Brewmaster to fight with staff and beers.We got a kung fu fighter and a mist healer.

They also got the Brewmaster that fights with a staff. The BRM concept just happened to fit an overall Monk theme.

My point is that the selling point of the necromancer (a character that summons death and dead people) is already utilized quite well by the DK.

Necromancy is not just Scourge.I m tired of repeating this,we have trolls, shadowlands, draeneis, orcs, we even had a new quest in game that took us to the shadowlands.

We also have non-pandaren monks. You really think they're going to make an entirely new Monk class in order to represent all those non-Pandaren monks in Azeroth and beyond?

[Darktbs]

Now we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel....

Blue fire is already a very popular thing outside of Warcraft in case you close mind didn't know, its just a example because for you, because it need to have a Wc base for some dumb found reason.

They also got the Brewmaster that fights with a staff. The BRM concept just happened to fit an overall Monk theme..

Can you stop picking and chosing?
"Just because people want one thing doesn't mean you can introduce more(is actually good, even for your own concept Teriz,just saying)you can let Uh Dks stay the same and have a Necromancer be based around necromancy differently, even undead summoning.After all, Dks have their unique thematic, Necromancers can haver theirs."

My point is that the selling point of the necromancer (a character that summons death and dead people) is already utilized quite well by the DK

So?Why can't another concept be created that explore necromancy as well?UH dk will not move from what it is now and it is limited to what a Scourge Dk is.

And, you can expand upon the idea.

We also have non-pandaren monks. You really think they're going to make an entirely new Monk class in order to represent all those non-Pandaren monks in Azeroth and beyond?

The monks pre-MoP were priests, every other Monk following MoP was similar to the Pandaren Monk style.

And stop avoiding my question:
Why its a problem to take inspiration from somewhere else?

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Except no Necromancer in WC has shown to do any of that stuff. For example, can you point to a NPC Necromancer in WoW who has an ability to instantly transform into a Lich for a short time?

Can you point out a Pre-MoP MOnk that could Mist heal?

[DotEleven]

If you check my post count you can see I don't post often. Just want to say, this looks awesome. I've always wanted a tinker class and it hit all the things I thought they'd need to. Mail wearer (because currently there's only 2), tank spec, uses int as it's main stat, and wields ranged weapons (because right now it's literally hunter for bows/guns).

A healing mech also seems awesome.

[Thimagryn]

Except no Necromancer in WC has shown to do any of that stuff. For example, can you point to a NPC Necromancer in WoW who has an ability to instantly transform into a Lich for a short time?

The same place where Warlocks were able to transform into Demons for a short time in Vanilla. Where are the NPCs that showed us Warlocks could do that in vanilla? There weren't any.

We have lore of Necromancers turning into Liches. Gameplay-wise, we wouldn't have a mechanic that permanently locks your character into an alternate form, so having it be a transform ability makes sense.

You're asking what is different about Necromancers, not what NPCs can or can't do. I mean... you created an entire Tinker concept here with 70% abilities that aren't sourced to any NPCs either. Curious, no?

[Teriz]

Blue fire is already a very popular thing outside of Warcraft in case you close mind didn't know, its just a example because for you, because it need to have a Wc base for some dumb found reason.

There's plenty of things popular outside of Warcraft. That has no bearing on whether or not it'll actually appear in Warcraft, and it shouldn't be used as a basis to create a nonexistent difference between two similar concepts.

The monks pre-MoP were priests, every other Monk following MoP was similar to the Pandaren Monk style.

You mean like these guys?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Eramas_Brightblaze
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Scarlet_Monk
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Risen_Monk
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Argent_Monk
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=18497/auc...monk#abilities

I wasn't aware that Priests had abilities like Snap Kick, Pummel, Thrash, Flurry of Blows, or Cyclone Attack.

Your argument is akin to advocating for Blizzard to create another monk class because our Monk class only deals with Pandarern monks and not Blood Elf monks like Brightblaze, or the Scarlet Crusade Monks.

Sounds pretty silly doesn't it?

And stop avoiding my question:
Why its a problem to take inspiration from somewhere else?

Because it isn't Warcraft.

Can you point out a Pre-MoP MOnk that could Mist heal?

Irrelevant. You can expand on a concept as long as the core is intact. There was no Monk class, and the Brewmaster core was unique in the class lineup, so its expansion beyond that was a non-issue. The problem with the Necromancer is that the core is compromised so you're purposely trying to expand it to create a difference that doesn't really exist.

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If you check my post count you can see I don't post often. Just want to say, this looks awesome. I've always wanted a tinker class and it hit all the things I thought they'd need to. Mail wearer (because currently there's only 2), tank spec, uses int as it's main stat, and wields ranged weapons (because right now it's literally hunter for bows/guns).

A healing mech also seems awesome.

Well I appreciate you taking the time to respond in this thread.

And yeah, I made sure to keep the concept as true to the Tinker heroes as possible, but to also have the concept fill all the holes that people feel are missing in the class lineup.

[ForrestAnthony]

Great design and ideas. Borrwing from Overwatch and HotS works too.

IMO;

The Class should also be available to Dwarves/Dark Irons, and Orcs. Both races have shown finesse in engineering and mechanics in the past, and I've been campaigning for this class for a long time and would rather die than see it bound to the two smallest (and debatebly most annoying) races in the game.

The ability ideas are pretty fun but many of these don't seem very well thought out lol. Skyfall would make most ppl nauseous.

The armour artwork looks fantastic, but again, I genuinely dislike this creator's fixation on goblins/gnomes only. It's like insinuating no other race is capable of operating/piloting machinery, despite the fact the Iron Horde is literally a giant example of Orcs utilizing that kind of tech, and Dwarves are no strangers to mole machines, gyrocopters, and AI sentinels of their own.

Lastly, the tank spec should be the only "mech" spec of the class, perhaps healer too, in a modified, weaker version that contains more fragile elements like giant tanks of potion and stuff. If all 3 specs are bound to a mech, it waters down the significance of having a mech in the first place. Gnomes, Dwarves, Goblins and Orcs have all proven their capability without needing to pilot one, and by their very nature Mechs are heavily reinforced, as such it makes sense they be used primarily as a frontline device first.

For assault/RDPS, I'd personally take inspiration from Warhammer online's Dwarf Engineer class, Gazlowe from Hots, and Torbjorn from Overwatch. The concept of placing turrets that act as stationary rdps pets is quite untapped in WoW atm, as well as (like Torbjorn) the possiblity of mid-fight upgrades, ammunition type changes, and your (the player) role as a run and gunner, using your positioning to fight with a rifle when it's time to move, or to hit your own turrets with a mace/wrench to reinforce/upgrade them before they take hits from a Boss mechanic or PvP so they don't instantly die. If the assault spec had to be bound to a Mech, I'd encourage the mech to be weak, frail, but heavily armed. Emphasize the glass cannon aspect and ensure there are physical and clearly visible differences between the specs' mechs.

[Teriz]

The same place where Warlocks were able to transform into Demons for a short time in Vanilla. Where are the NPCs that showed us Warlocks could do that in vanilla? There weren't any.

We have lore of Necromancers turning into Liches. Gameplay-wise, we wouldn't have a mechanic that permanently locks your character into an alternate form, so having it be a transform ability makes sense.

Well here's the problem: Lore-wise, you can't turn back into a Necromancer after you've changed into a Lich. That form is pretty permanent. The other problem is how would that be different gameplay wise from a frost Mage of a Frost DK? Like would this spec be a guy casting Frost spells, and then suddenly they turn into a Lich and cast more frost spells? That just seems rather redundant when we already have a Frost Mage spec, and a Frost DK spec.

You're asking what is different about Necromancers, not what NPCs can or can't do. I mean... you created an entire Tinker concept here with 70% abilities that aren't sourced to any NPCs either. Curious, no?

Eh... I wouldn't say that.

The Boosting and Skyfall stuff comes from Gazlowe and Marin's Shredders, where they're literally flying around the field, and performing Skyfall on targets. Flamethrower comes from Gazlowe's Shredder, Machine Gun comes from Razlo Crushcog's Mech. Steam Blast comes from a Mekgineer in Outland, and Electro-Jolt comes from Omegaplugg. Cluster Rockets, Pocket Factory, Engineering Upgrade, and the mech form all come from the WC3 Tinker. Iron Star, Crawler Mines, Magnetized Sawblade, Healing Spray, Overcharge, Protective Frenzy, Hired Goons, and other stuff comes from (or is related to) Helix Blackfuse. Deth Lazor, Turrets (and most of their upgrades), Gravity Bomb, Xplodium Charge, Salvager, Scrap, Sawblade, etc. comes from HotS Gazlowe, and on and on and on.

So I would say that far more than 30% of those abilities come directly from WC3 and WoW sources.

[Deleted]

Meh, I don't like it, even though I really want to.
I don't think the mech defines a tinker, why should it, too?
Mech heal spec would be bullshit imo.

[Teriz]

Meh, I don't like it, even though I really want to.
I don't think the mech defines a tinker, why should it, too?
Mech heal spec would be bullshit imo.

Two reasons:

1. The original Tinker hero's ability to enter and exit a mech form just like a Druid with Bear and Crow form.
2. Gelbin and Gazlowe piloting mechs in Legion.

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Great design and ideas. Borrwing from Overwatch and HotS works too.

IMO;

The Class should also be available to Dwarves/Dark Irons, and Orcs. Both races have shown finesse in engineering and mechanics in the past, and I've been campaigning for this class for a long time and would rather die than see it bound to the two smallest (and debatebly most annoying) races in the game.

The ability ideas are pretty fun but many of these don't seem very well thought out lol. Skyfall would make most ppl nauseous.

The armour artwork looks fantastic, but again, I genuinely dislike this creator's fixation on goblins/gnomes only. It's like insinuating no other race is capable of operating/piloting machinery, despite the fact the Iron Horde is literally a giant example of Orcs utilizing that kind of tech, and Dwarves are no strangers to mole machines, gyrocopters, and AI sentinels of their own.

An argument can be made for Orc and Dwarves being part of the Tinker class. I just think an Orc and a Dwarf in a mech looks kind of silly, where as it fits Gnomes and Goblins almost perfectly.

Lastly, the tank spec should be the only "mech" spec of the class, perhaps healer too, in a modified, weaker version that contains more fragile elements like giant tanks of potion and stuff. If all 3 specs are bound to a mech, it waters down the significance of having a mech in the first place. Gnomes, Dwarves, Goblins and Orcs have all proven their capability without needing to pilot one, and by their very nature Mechs are heavily reinforced, as such it makes sense they be used primarily as a frontline device first.

For assault/RDPS, I'd personally take inspiration from Warhammer online's Dwarf Engineer class, Gazlowe from Hots, and Torbjorn from Overwatch. The concept of placing turrets that act as stationary rdps pets is quite untapped in WoW atm, as well as (like Torbjorn) the possiblity of mid-fight upgrades, ammunition type changes, and your (the player) role as a run and gunner, using your positioning to fight with a rifle when it's time to move, or to hit your own turrets with a mace/wrench to reinforce/upgrade them before they take hits from a Boss mechanic or PvP so they don't instantly die. If the assault spec had to be bound to a Mech, I'd encourage the mech to be weak, frail, but heavily armed. Emphasize the glass cannon aspect and ensure there are physical and clearly visible differences between the specs' mechs.

Well I disagree that it waters down the significance of having a mech. Consider that not everyone enjoys tanking, and some people who want to pilot a mech might want to heal inside a mech, or do DPS inside a mech, so giving that option to all the specs broadens the appeal of the class, and also helps define it.

As to your turret concept; Hmm, that is a pretty interesting idea actually; Essentially a Tinker running around in the back lines maintaining and upgrading turrets, and making that the new physical ranged DPS. I took quite a bit from D.va, but Torbjorn could definitely be used as inspiration as well. My only concern is would that be considered compelling gameplay? Would a player want to be in the backlines maintaining turrets, or zipping around the battlefield fighting inside a highly mobile mech?

Something to think about, but I do like where you're going with that DPS idea.

[Thimagryn]

[QUOTE=Teriz;48838965]Well here's the problem: Lore-wise, you can't turn back into a Necromancer after you've changed into a Lich. That form is pretty permanent. The other problem is how would that be different gameplay wise from a frost Mage of a Frost DK? Like would this spec be a guy casting Frost spells, and then suddenly they turn into a Lich and cast more frost spells? That just seems rather redundant when we already have a Frost Mage spec, and a Frost DK spec.[quote]

Why would a Necromancer need frost when they can easily have Poison and Bone to draw from? Their lich form can be the Shadow Frost spec, and that would only be a spellcaster version of the Death Knight. There's no overlap with the Mage since it's a different school of spells. Shamans use Frost too and I don't see you having issues.

So I would say that far more than 30% of those abilities come directly from WC3 and WoW sources.

They come from non-canon sources. If we're gonna do that then Hearthstone has a wealth of Necromancer abilities to draw from.

[Teriz]

Why would a Necromancer need frost when they can easily have Poison and Bone to draw from? Their lich form can be the Shadow Frost spec, and that would only be a spellcaster version of the Death Knight. There's no overlap with the Mage since it's a different school of spells. Shamans use Frost too and I don't see you having issues.

Because Shaman have like 2 Frost spells, not an entire spec dedicated to Frost.

And also what's the different between Frost and Shadowfrost gameplay-wise? Frost mages have Ebonbolt which is shadow frost, and outside of a damage modifier it works just like any generic Frost spell.

They come from non-canon sources. If we're gonna do that then Hearthstone has a wealth of Necromancer abilities to draw from.

Blizzard has pulled abilities from HotS into WoW (Sundering, Wailing Arrow). I'm unaware of any abilities entering WoW from Hearthstone.