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  1. #1081
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shon237 View Post
    Very good point by Evan McMullin. This should be common sense.



    https://twitter.com/Evan_McMullin/st...04461513363456
    Pretty much. Our separation of powers structured government is what keeps this from actually turning into a fascistic authoritarian state. As soon as people in all of the branches become loyal to Trump and not to the country itself or the constitution, then we are fucked. Presidents appoint people to them in the executive branch, but those people must be loyal to the constitution and our system of laws before they are loyal to a person. Once the executive, judicial, and legislative branches are all loyal to a man and not our system of laws, goodbye freedom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not to mention, to repeat a point I've made several times now, oppo research has to include explanations and justifications where it's relevant. Or you're setting the client up to "expose" something their opponent has a ready explanation for, which ends up a win for their opposition and just makes your client look bad.

    Opposition research is not about muckraking. You might dig up muck, but you need to be real sure it's real much that will actually stick.
    "You found evidence of crime while doing opposition research? And that opposition research was done with partisan intent? ILLEGAL, UNLAWFUL, CORRUPT, HEINOUS!"

    And now 72% of Republicans think that the FBI/DOJ can't be trusted.

    I really really really really really hope I'm not the only person who not only pointed out Trump's authoritarian moves up til now, but that he keeps doing them, and undermining our system of laws by making the public have no faith in the justice system, in addition to consolidating power under one man, are plays out of EVERY SINGLE ASSHOLE DICTATOR'S PLAYBOOK.
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  2. #1082
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butter Emails View Post
    I really really really really really hope I'm not the only person who not only pointed out Trump's authoritarian moves up til now, but that he keeps doing them, and undermining our system of laws by making the public have no faith in the justice system, in addition to consolidating power under one man, are plays out of EVERY SINGLE ASSHOLE DICTATOR'S PLAYBOOK.
    Frankly, at this point, we should've stuck with using the German 1930s-era wording to translate what Trump was actually doing, rather than being shamed away from that.

    Every time someone says "fake news", correct them that they mean "lugenpresse".
    When they say "America first!", repeat "Die Deutschen immer vor dem Ausländer und den Juden!"
    If they talk about cultural superiority in opposing immigrants, label them "Ubermensch", sarcastically.
    If they push ethnonationalism, remind them of the slogan "Ein volk, ein reich, ein fuhrer".

    Because if you don't want to come off looking like Nazis, maybe stop quoting from the Nazi playbook.


  3. #1083
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellboi View Post
    Meeting with a lawyer to find dirt on Clinton is not working with the Russian government.

    Pay attention.

    Trump Jr is not Trump Sr.

    Pay attention.
    Considering the emails said she was working for the Russian Government, and she says she works for the Russian Government, they were working with the Russian Government.

    Also, when Trump Sr. made up the fake reason for the meeting, he ABSOLUTELY knew what was happening and ok'd the meeting. And Bannon is on record in an interview saying that there is no way that the Russian lawyer didn't meet Trump Sr. when she was there.

  4. #1084
    Quote Originally Posted by Butter Emails View Post
    I really really really really really hope I'm not the only person who not only pointed out Trump's authoritarian moves up til now, but that he keeps doing them, and undermining our system of laws by making the public have no faith in the justice system, in addition to consolidating power under one man, are plays out of EVERY SINGLE ASSHOLE DICTATOR'S PLAYBOOK.
    And of course Trump isn't actually the dangerous player in all this. Because I don't believe he has the intelligence or guile to really make use of the kind of power he is consolidating. None of his scams have been anything clever or tricky. They have all been basic hustles designed to let him skim money for himself from whatever fake front he sets up under his name. Whenever he has started a genuine company it has ended up needing bailing out, or in bankruptcy. He is a relatively harmless idiot.

    But the power he is drawing to the POSITION he finds himself in, well that's the worry. Because the next guy that sits in that chair might be smart enough to make some really dangerous use of that amount of power in one place. And if the checks and balances have been broken by the time that happens, the US could find itself in a tough place. Regardless of whether that person gets in under the Republican banner, or the Democrat. This should be something that worries right thinking people on BOTH sides of the political fence.
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  5. #1085
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Frankly, at this point, we should've stuck with using the German 1930s-era wording to translate what Trump was actually doing, rather than being shamed away from that.

    Every time someone says "fake news", correct them that they mean "lugenpresse".
    When they say "America first!", repeat "Die Deutschen immer vor dem Ausländer und den Juden!"
    If they talk about cultural superiority in opposing immigrants, label them "Ubermensch", sarcastically.
    If they push ethnonationalism, remind them of the slogan "Ein volk, ein reich, ein fuhrer".

    Because if you don't want to come off looking like Nazis, maybe stop quoting from the Nazi playbook.
    I've been pointing out the stark similarities in demonizing the media, denying the free press as being trustworthy, and at least 20 other moves up til this point that are just straight out of the Nazi playbook. People can cry "LOL CALLING TRUMP HITLER, SO DUMB!" But of course that's to miss the very obvious point I've been making this whole time. In the past, people have called presidents or leaders "nazis" with no real basis for it. We're literally witnessing a repeat of propaganda, rhetoric, and methods used to seize power.

    I'm sure you've seen the poll where 52% of Republicans had said they'd accept postponing the 2020 election if Trump said they needed to do it to weed out illegal immigrants. Have to wonder how long that operation will take. 1 month? 1 year? 10 years? The Trumpkins who have even replied to that poll have said it's fake and stupid and that nobody would agree to that and it's just the media blowing things out of proportion. Just wait until Trump actually suggests it, and we'll see how many of them actually end up backing the proposal.
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  6. #1086
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The alternative is declaring that you believe those DOJ officials are incompetent and/or unethical, and should be removed from their positions.
    Or perhaps they have grown a bit too complacent in their duties, too bogged down in "routine paperwork" to see bigger picture of what exactly they are approving there. "Just another FISA warrant, one of the thousands per year - well, they written everything required by DoJ guidelines, i see no problems, approved"

    No need to assume malice from anyone; though some over-zealousness from FBI side when they pursued potential "threat to US" in form of Trump-Russia connection is possible.

    Are you making that declaration, and do you have the evidence to conclusively prove it? No? Then yes, you have to assume they are acting in accordance with the requirements of their position.

    Otherwise, you're just making shit up without any basis at all for it. Making those kinds of accusations without basis is potentially legally actionable, as slander.
    That's not how Congressional Oversight works.

    Congressional control of agencies

    If Congress believes that an agency has drifted from its original mandate, Congress can respond in a number of ways. Congress can pass a law to overrule agency decisions, or to narrow the agency's jurisdiction. Congress can use its appropriations power to restrict the agency's funding. Congress can also narrow the agency's regulatory authority. For example, in the 1980s Congress narrowed the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's regulatory discretion using detailed substantive criteria to limit EPA rulemaking.[5]


    Note "believes". Not "proves".

    Purposes

    Oversight, as an outgrowth of this principle, ideally serves a number of overlapping objectives and purposes:

    improve the efficiency, economy, and effectiveness of governmental operations;
    evaluate programs and performance;
    detect and prevent poor administration, waste, abuse, arbitrary and capricious behavior, or illegal and unconstitutional conduct;
    protect civil liberties and constitutional rights;
    inform the general public and ensure that executive policies reflect the public interest;

    gather information to develop new legislative proposals or to amend existing statutes;
    ensure administrative compliance with legislative intent; and
    prevent executive encroachment on legislative authority and prerogatives.

    In sum, oversight is a way for Congress to check on, and check, the executived directors


    I bolded parts that cover purpose of the memo.

    Yeah, we're not talking about oversight here, at all.
    We definitely do.

    You didn't "explain" shit, and your claims don't hold up. If your political opponents are engaging in closeted shenanigans with foreign agents, they probably should be surveilled under a FISA warrant.

    There's nothing wrong with using opposition research here.
    Not when you later say same research is "salacious and unverified", and then through later testimonies create impression that without it no FISA warrants on American citizens would be pursued.

  7. #1087
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellboi View Post
    Meeting with a lawyer to find dirt on Clinton is not working with the Russian government.

    Pay attention.

    Trump Jr is not Trump Sr.

    Pay attention.
    There's no chance Trump didn't know about it.

    Even Bannon said so. Kek.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  8. #1088
    Honest question....Hellboi is clearly an alt meant specifically to troll Endus.....so why is that allowed?

  9. #1089
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Or perhaps they have grown a bit too complacent in their duties, too bogged down in "routine paperwork" to see bigger picture of what exactly they are approving there. "Just another FISA warrant, one of the thousands per year - well, they written everything required by DoJ guidelines, i see no problems, approved"

    No need to assume malice from anyone; though some over-zealousness from FBI side when they pursued potential "threat to US" in form of Trump-Russia connection is possible.

    That's not how Congressional Oversight works.

    Congressional control of agencies

    If Congress believes that an agency has drifted from its original mandate, Congress can respond in a number of ways. Congress can pass a law to overrule agency decisions, or to narrow the agency's jurisdiction. Congress can use its appropriations power to restrict the agency's funding. Congress can also narrow the agency's regulatory authority. For example, in the 1980s Congress narrowed the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's regulatory discretion using detailed substantive criteria to limit EPA rulemaking.[5]


    Note "believes". Not "proves".

    Purposes

    Oversight, as an outgrowth of this principle, ideally serves a number of overlapping objectives and purposes:

    improve the efficiency, economy, and effectiveness of governmental operations;
    evaluate programs and performance;
    detect and prevent poor administration, waste, abuse, arbitrary and capricious behavior, or illegal and unconstitutional conduct;
    protect civil liberties and constitutional rights;
    inform the general public and ensure that executive policies reflect the public interest;

    gather information to develop new legislative proposals or to amend existing statutes;
    ensure administrative compliance with legislative intent; and
    prevent executive encroachment on legislative authority and prerogatives.

    In sum, oversight is a way for Congress to check on, and check, the executived directors


    I bolded parts that cover purpose of the memo.

    We definitely do.

    Not when you later say same research is "salacious and unverified", and then through later testimonies create impression that without it no FISA warrants on American citizens would be pursued.
    Parts of it were salacious. Not all of it. You’re deliberately being obtuse.

  10. #1090
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Note "believes". Not "proves".
    Thanks, this phrase sums up the entirety of the Nunes memo. It's a whole lot of belief and proof of nothing.
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  11. #1091
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Or perhaps they have grown a bit too complacent in their duties, too bogged down in "routine paperwork" to see bigger picture of what exactly they are approving there. "Just another FISA warrant, one of the thousands per year - well, they written everything required by DoJ guidelines, i see no problems, approved"

    No need to assume malice from anyone; though some over-zealousness from FBI side when they pursued potential "threat to US" in form of Trump-Russia connection is possible.
    I repeat; you have absolutely zero evidence to support those accusations. Without such evidence, it's slander, and nothing more.

    Not when you later say same research is "salacious and unverified", and then through later testimonies create impression that without it no FISA warrants on American citizens would be pursued.
    None of that follows in any way whatsoever. Evidence's salaciousness is not a comment on its validity.

    Particularly as, unless you've gotten access to the FISA warrant application documents themselves somehow, you have no way of knowing if the salacious bits were the portions cited therein. So you're back to "making shit up".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Honest question....Hellboi is clearly an alt meant specifically to troll Endus.....so why is that allowed?
    I mean, he doesn't act like me, and I'm sure I'm not the only Hellboy fan out there. Honestly, I don't think he's meant to be a parody account of me, and if he is, then they really don't understand me, so it doesn't bother me.

    As for "troll account", well, not my job any more (thank god).


  12. #1092
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I repeat; you have absolutely zero evidence to support those accusations. Without such evidence, it's slander, and nothing more.
    Those are claims made by those who have seen evidence for their accusations. As such they are not slander, sorry.

    None of that follows in any way whatsoever. Evidence's salaciousness is not a comment on its validity.
    There have been shown no independent verification done by FBI to validity of those claims; or, at least, we know of no positive results for verification of claims that were used to approve FISA warrant (else they could just use them instead of dossier and escape entire controversy).

    So it remains, to this moment, uncorroborated opposition research. And it was used to approve FISA warrant on American citizen. Path for potential, if not actual breach of trust is obvious; as such it should be Congressional duty to make sure rights of American citizens are protected from excessive wiretapping, and plenty of ways for them to do so once they made problem known to public.

  13. #1093
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Those are claims made by those who have seen evidence for their accusations. As such they are not slander, sorry.
    You realize that's a completely insane argument, yes?

    "Oh, the accused claims they saw something, but can't produce it, so we have to find them not responsible for the slander" said no civil court ever.

    Particularly when the account we DO have in the memo is filled with objective exaggerations, other slanders, and half-truths.

    There have been shown no independent verification done by FBI to validity of those claims; or, at least, we know of no positive results for verification of claims that were used to approve FISA warrant (else they could just use them instead of dossier and escape entire controversy).
    "They didn't go through this fictional process I've invented in my own head, so it's all lies forever."

    This is insanity you're giving me, Shalcker, not a reasoned response.

    So it remains, to this moment, uncorroborated opposition research. And it was used to approve FISA warrant on American citizen. Path for potential, if not actual breach of trust is obvious; as such it should be Congressional duty to make sure rights of American citizens are protected from excessive wiretapping, and plenty of ways for them to do so once they made problem known to public.
    No. You have not shown any "path for potential breach of trust", other than the so-obvious-it's-irrelevant path of "literally any kind of evidence may be manufactured maliciously", which applies to all evidence in all circumstances, and there's no reason to presume the dossier was treated any differently than anything else in this.

    You're claiming the FISA courts had no basis to grant the warrant on Page.
    Your only grounds for this is whining about the dossier.
    Regardless of your complaints, the dossier remains valid and legitimate evidence, and nothing you have presented in any way calls that into question.

    This is all made up in your own head and does not exist outside of that imaginary venue.

    The facts are that the FBI granted sufficient evidence to the FISA courts to make a warrant justified. In the FISA courts' estimation, which is the only estimation that really matters, here.
    To contest that, you're citing a known liar's hyperbolic account of someone else's opinion on one fundamentally irrelevant factor of that evidence.

    This does not amount to facts that call the FISA court's decision into question.
    Last edited by Endus; 2018-02-07 at 02:09 AM.


  14. #1094
    I am Murloc! Noxx79's Avatar
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    I’m stil pretty sure parts of the Steele dossier are corroborated, and that is exactly what the trumpers don’t want to get out.

    I’d really like one of them to show me where anyone with the FBI has stated that the entire dossier is false.

    If ANY of the dossier was corroborated, it is completely irrelevant where it came from, be it the DNC, Hillary, or freaking Kim jong il for that matter.

  15. #1095
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxx79 View Post
    I’m stil pretty sure parts of the Steele dossier are corroborated, and that is exactly what the trumpers don’t want to get out.

    I’d really like one of them to show me where anyone with the FBI has stated that the entire dossier is false.

    If ANY of the dossier was corroborated, it is completely irrelevant where it came from, be it the DNC, Hillary, or freaking Kim jong il for that matter.
    We know that parts of it has been, we have several articles that have shown that lots of things in the dossier have been confirmed.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39435786
    http://www.newsweek.com/trump-campai...ion-gps-768867
    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...roborated.html
    http://www.businessinsider.com/carte...ossier-2017-11

    I like that last link there, it specifically states that Carter Page's House Intelligence testimony corroborates parts of the Dossier about him.

  16. #1096
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellboi View Post
    Meeting with a lawyer to find dirt on Clinton is not working with the Russian government.

    Pay attention.

    Trump Jr is not Trump Sr.

    Pay attention.
    Highlighted the keywords for you. I guess you didnt know, but Trump Jr was working on his daddys campaign.

  17. #1097
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    That quote just cemented the BS the Right is peddling. The dossier on Trump is bad news but the Trump's meeting with Russian informants isn't? Jesus Christ this shit is ridiculous.

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  18. #1098
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You realize that's a completely insane argument, yes?
    "Oh, the accused claims they saw something, but can't produce it, so we have to find them not responsible for the slander" said no civil court ever.
    Particularly when the account we DO have in the memo is filled with objective exaggerations, other slanders, and half-truths.
    FISA courts are not civil courts. Their depositions are secret. They are provided with just government viewpoint, and from what we know all government agency needs is suspicion. They approve more then 99.9% of warrant applications (some after modifications).

    It is system that simply cannot be without abuse if left to their own devices, so oversight has to be employed now and then. And that role in American system is reserved to Congress. And obviously anything that catches Congress attention either is or becomes political the moment they make their findings public. There is no escaping that.

    And in current US political climate that obviously involves claims of exaggerations or outright falsehoods by "other side" if alleged wrongdoing is strong enough; and it might or might not be true, but that still doesn't mean that nothing should be or can be done.

    "They didn't go through this fictional process I've invented in my own head, so it's all lies forever."
    This is insanity you're giving me, Shalcker, not a reasoned response.
    Where did i say "lies forever"? Stop creating strawman.

    No. You have not shown any "path for potential breach of trust", other than the so-obvious-it's-irrelevant path of "literally any kind of evidence may be manufactured maliciously", which applies to all evidence in all circumstances, and there's no reason to presume the dossier was treated any differently than anything else in this.
    And "treated no differently", by all accounts, seems to be close to blanket acceptance.

    You're claiming the FISA courts had no basis to grant the warrant on Page.
    No, as far as i see they followed their guidelines (which we do not in fact know). And if that means that American citizens can be spied upon on flimsiest evidence using mechanisms intended for foreign spying, then perhaps those guidelines should be examined and changed.

  19. #1099
    Given what we know about Page and the rest I'd say the FISA process worked just fine in this case.

  20. #1100
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Honest question....Hellboi is clearly an alt meant specifically to troll Endus.....so why is that allowed?
    Been wondering the same for some time now...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    As for "troll account", well, not my job any more (thank god).
    ... and even if it was, you'd be better off leaving it to the others.

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