Denmark formally proposes ban on Islamic full-face veil in public

[Azadina]

You don't even address the important security issue. Too bad it doesn't fit your agenda. Special treatment: No. Feel free to keep talking about freedom like someone who doesn't understand it. It won't make a difference.

I have no need to address anything. I asked you simple question that you immediately backpedaled on. Wanna see your own comments again? Here we go:

Nope. Forcing another religion in front of others is what limits freedom. Keep it at home. I'm not in their face about my religious choices, they shouldn't be either. Besides, in western society you are indentified by your face. Covering your face is an atempt to be unrecognised and it's a highly dangerous situation. It cannot be permitted. It's thieving behaviour.

If you don't like the rules of the country you go to, you are free to leave. There is a reason why i don't move to paquistan, but if i did, i'd abide by the local customs. There can be no exception for muslims, like they give no exception for us. This is not limiting freedom, it's basic conduct when you move to a different country.

Forcing churches on me every time I walk to store seems to match the criteria you provided there. 100%. Any more excuses in your bag of tricks?

[Coolthulhu]

Similar laws exist in many European countries and apply to non-religious garments as well, on grounds of public policy. I don't understand what the fuss is about.

[Dalinos]

Symbol politics and a cheap way for politicians to mobilize sheeple for their cause. In Holland certain politicians have been arguing for a similar ban since 2005 - and getting massive media attention for it. The stupid thing is, according to estimations, there are only around 100 women in the country regularly wearing a niqab or burqa.....

I am sorry, fellow Dutchie, but I will have to refute that.

I came to the Netherlands a year and a half ago, pursuing a Master's degree at Utrecht University. At the local neighborhood supermarket, I see -MANY- women on a daily basis wearing Islam-related gear. From female Muslim students who just wear the simple headscarf that only hides the hair, but leaves the face visible, to mature family-women who go all out and wear the full garb that only leaves a slit for the eyes. Like, in a queue at the cashier of 4 people, 2 of em will be women who are wearing some sort if Islamic clothing. So, "only 100 women in the country" might've been true in 2005, it surely is NOT true for 2017 and beyond.

Even IN University, there were female students with headscarves. Personally, I got taught in school that when one enters a closed space (such as a classroom, lecture hall, etc) one removes all headgear including hats, caps, beanies, hoods etc. Coincidentally, we were told the same in the Army (Berets and military caps get removed from one's head once entering a building).It is a sign of courtesy and respect. I (personally) found it such a waste to see gorgeous young girls in their early 20's, full of energy, having to conceal their characteristics and hair.

On topic, GJ Denmark. It is against the law in most countries to conceal your face for no reason that isn't basically work related. To enter a BANK, which is simply a private establishment, you need to go through a triple door that at some point leaves you solo, between 2 doors, with a camera pointed straight to your face, and you are asked to remove hoods-caps-sunglasses-anything else that may conceal your characteristics. At least, that's how banks operate (for security purposes) back home in Greece. (Incoming snarky comment about Greece's financial situation, come at me bros! ) Many other examples come to mind, but you get my point.

That being said, if some women WANT to show their faith in public (because in Western society, that is basically how it is perceived), they can do so without going against the laws of the country they are in (not allowed to hide your face in public for no practical reason). Personally, I was grown up in a strictly Greek Orthodox household so I wear my crucifix since the age of like...7 or so, out of habit. And last time I checked, there aren't many countries where it is illegal to wear a simple golden chain with a simple golden crucifix which can't even be seen on the outside (since its worn inside the shirt/T-shirt whatever).

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I have no need to address anything. I asked you simple question that you immediately backpedaled on. Wanna see your own comments again? Here we go:



Forcing churches on me every time I walk to store seems to match the criteria you provided there. 100%. Any more excuses in your bag of tricks?

Holy smokes, how much can you nit-pick? You are really comparing a CHURCH, which is a BUILDING (i.e - it stays there, it doesn't move) to a PERSON who you might need to interact with for various X reasons? When I talk to someone in front of me I (firstly) want to know their name, and then I want to be able to see their face. Why? Because I expose my face and state my name too, it's called "Social Contact". Apples and oranges friend, apples and oranges.

[LMuhlen]

I came to the Netherlands a year and a half ago, pursuing a Master's degree at Utrecht University. At the local neighborhood supermarket, I see -MANY- women on a daily basis wearing Islam-related gear. From female Muslim students who just wear the simple headscarf that only hides the hair, but leaves the face visible, to mature family-women who go all out and wear the full garb that only leaves a slit for the eyes. Like, in a queue at the cashier of 4 people, 2 of em will be women who are wearing some sort if Islamic clothing. So, "only 100 women in the country" might've been true in 2005, it surely is NOT true for 2017 and beyond.

This is ONLY about the "full garb that only leaves a slit for the eyes". It is not against Muslim items. When he said 100, and others have said similar numbers, they meant exclusively the niqab and burqa.

[Azadina]

Holy smokes, how much can you nit-pick? You are really comparing a CHURCH, which is a BUILDING (i.e - it stays there, it doesn't move) to a PERSON who you might need to interact with for various X reasons? When I talk to someone in front of me I (firstly) want to know their name, and then I want to be able to see their face. Why? Because I expose my face and state my name too, it's called "Social Contact". Apples and oranges friend, apples and oranges.

Words have meaning. "Forcing another religion infront of others is what limits freedom. Keep it at home."

Is that CHURCH, which is indeed a building (grats on recognizing that), A RELIGIOUS building, kept at home and not infront of others, if it sits in PUBLIC view and on PUBLIC land? I have not once in my life seen someone with burqa, nor had the need to interact with said person for "various X reasons". Seems to me like not one muslim has forced their religion on me. Same cannot be said of christians. You know, the ones you and others keep making excuses for, while talking stuff like not forcing religion on others.

Maybe you and the others should, instead of making empty talk of not forcing religion on others, just say what is in your mind. Such as "it's fine if christians do it, but not fine if it's done by islam" Completely hypocritical of course, but atleast then there'd be shred of honesty involved in the messages.

As long as it's about "not forcing religion on others", then I would demand NO religion is forced on me, not your favorite, or Nenmars personal favorite, or any other.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And the mosque aswell? Don't be ridiculous. A building is a building. People can do whatever they want in their privacy. Not, in public spaces though. They aren't their alone. The burka is synonym with violation of woman rights. It is not something that is seen in a good light in the west.

Regardless there's security reasons you obviously choose not to address. People are identified by their face. Citizens can't be allowed to hide their face. Otherwise they all can and anyone can commit any sort of crime unpunished. The end line is this: Special treatment: NO! Muslims don't get to have special treatment at the risk of everyone's safety.

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It is when said thing is a symbol of human rights abuse.

What next? Let's have murderers carry the murder weapon on their back? It's their freedom right? No, you don't know what freedom is. Your "freedom" can not put others at risk. Sorry, just no. This will keep moving on. It cannot be legal to have citizens not identifiable. Especially when that is a religious symbol being forced onto others.

YA some one wearing something you don’t like isn’t a human rights abuse. And no the symbol isn’t being forced into others no none Muslims are being forced to wear it and you can’t even find the Muslims who want to wear it and who don’t.

[LMuhlen]

Words have meaning. "Forcing another religion infront of others is what limits freedom. Keep it at home."

Is that CHURCH, which is indeed a building (grats on recognizing that), A RELIGIOUS building, kept at home and not infront of others, if it sits in PUBLIC view and on PUBLIC land? I have not once in my life seen someone with burqa, nor had the need to interact with said person for "various X reasons". Seems to me like not one muslim has forced their religion on me. Same cannot be said of christians. You know, the ones you and others keep making excuses for, while talking stuff like not forcing religion on others.

And don't get me started on those church bells... Argh!!

[Deleted]

YA some one wearing something you don’t like isn’t a human rights abuse. And no the symbol isn’t being forced into others no none Muslims are being forced to wear it and you can’t even find the Muslims who want to wear it and who don’t.

Let's start dressing in swastikas. What could go wrong? Who could take offense?! It's our freedom i say!

Sad... very sad.

Regardless that is not the biggest problem. It's a SECURITY problem. You can't have citizens hiding their face. People's faces is what is used to identify them in our society. It will lead to a rise in criminality. An exception cannot be made.

[Azadina]

And don't get me started on those church bells... Argh!!

Oh, don't I know.

My moms house where I lived when I was younger, is literally the next building from Church. In case someone is wondering just how much religion has been forced on me by their favorite.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Let's start dressing in swastikas. What could go wrong? Who could take offense?! It's our freedom i say!

Sad... very sad.

Regardless that is not the biggest problem. It's a SECURITY problem. You can't have citizens hiding their face. People's faces is what is used to identify them in our society. It will lead to a rise in criminality. An exception cannot be made.

If you want to dress in swastikas I have no problem and I don’t care who takes offence. Clothing is not an action and as long as your not doing the same actions nazis did I don’t care what you wear.

I also don’t think it is a security problem it’s not like you see a huge crime spike every winter when most people cover there faces.

[LMuhlen]

Let's start dressing in swastikas. What could go wrong? Who could take offense?! It's our freedom i say!

Sad... very sad.

Regardless that is not the biggest problem. It's a SECURITY problem. You can't have citizens hiding their face. People's faces is what is used to identify them in our society. It will lead to a rise in criminality. An exception cannot be made.

It is a security problem that only started being a problem when people's sensitivities started being attacked by the burqas. AFAIK people have used face covering since ever, especially in cold places.

If they want to ban burqas, then grow some balls and ban them, don't offend everyone's intelligence with this sudden "security issue".

[Deleted]

If you want to dress in swastikas I have no problem and I don’t care who takes offence. Clothing is not an action and as long as your not doing the same actions nazis did I don’t care what you wear.

I also don’t think it is a security problem it’s not like you see a huge crime spike every winter when most people cover there faces.

Wether you personally have no problem is besides the point. Millions of people died and human rights were violated. That is an example when your freedom is irrupting in other people's freedom. Freedom is not Anarchy.

To the other point, just cause you want to brush it aside, it doesn't mean it isn't a grave problem, because it is. Just the images above i quoted illustrated that perfectly. If you did that in europe it is likely you would be arrested.

If you saw the person on the right committed a crime, how would you identify him/her?
If you saw the one on the left committed a crime, you could very easily identify her based on her face features.

No, it's a big problem. Security and respect. Europe is not the country of origin of most Muslims. The tradition and values that prevail are the ones from the country they are living in. Not their own. If they have different ones, they can keep it in their privacy or leave. They cannot bring it in front of other citizens of that country. It's an issue of respect. No one goes into another house and starts breaking things and when told off says they are irrupting on their freedom. That is not freedom. Your freedom ends when you are forcing something aka irrupting into another's freedom. This includes things that are offensive.

And by that i don't mean someone finds something random offensive. Crimes on the human race are offensive. Supporting them is offensive. Disrespecting local customs is offensive. Manifestation of opinion are alright. Doing it in a daily basis, is not alright. It confrontation.

To me the worst thing is that the fact that some people can't seem to respect local customs and will just lead to a wave of racism/extreme right to rise in europe. I have no problem with immigrants and refugee's. But they must understand they can't win. If they want europe to be their home, they have to become europeans. The more they are stubborn the worst it will become, to the point many can be deported.

[dunhildas]

It is a security problem that only started being a problem when people's sensitivities started being attacked by the burqas. AFAIK people have used face covering since ever, especially in cold places.

If they want to ban burqas, then grow some balls and ban them, don't offend everyone's intelligence with this sudden "security issue".

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...arnage-African


No security issue at all!

issue is, government are too scared to go ahead and ban it due to the backlash that would come from The Muslims Communities, they would also be of the "Security Issue nature"



Explain this, why is it that nations like Syria and Iran it's people are moving to remove their full face coverings, yet in the west... it's a symbol of "Freedom"


Also the item they were in "Cold Places" is normally called a scarf, and that is something you can't wear in official IDs or inside.

[Deleted]

What town is this? I live in Karlskrona and I've never seen anyone wearing one here, I have seen it in Stockholm though.

Jönköping /char

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I'm struggling immensely to understand how banning burqas will ease the waiting times.

In the long run it might keep the welfare tourists out of our country if they can't cover up their women. Personally i think a ban should be very far down on their list of priorities. Seems like a populist play.

[tikcol]

You shouldn't hide your face, it's wrong.

Especially if you're a part of a demographic statisticly more prone to acts of violence.

[Azadina]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...arnage-African


No security issue at all!

Correct, seeing how Boko Haram doesn't operate in Denmark. Would assuming you read your own article be too much, or fine?

Or did you seriously use a literally non existent threat (in Denmark) as a reason for random bans in Denmark?

[Deleted]

It is a security problem that only started being a problem when people's sensitivities started being attacked by the burqas. AFAIK people have used face covering since ever, especially in cold places.

If they want to ban burqas, then grow some balls and ban them, don't offend everyone's intelligence with this sudden "security issue".

Really?

Maybe cause now is when lots of immigrants came in and became a big problem? Honestly... the victimization narrative doesn't stick.

[Pannonian]

Really?

Maybe cause now is when lots of immigrants came in and became a big problem? Honestly... the victimization narrative doesn't stick.

As a country who forbid it because of security reason, can you cite the "big problems" - would be really interested, because to my knowledge there hasn't been a single terrorist attack here.

[LMuhlen]

Explain this, why is it that nations like Syria and Iran it's people are moving to remove their full face coverings, yet in the west... it's a symbol of "Freedom"

Because this "Freedom" means people get to choose. In one country they are forced to wear, in another they are forbidden. Being free to choose would be being in neither.

Again, if you dislike extremist Muslims, don't call it a freedom issue, don't call it a security issue. Just plain ban burqas and take the heat.

[Deleted]

As a country who forbid it because of security reason, can you cite the "big problems" - would be really interested, because to my knowledge there hasn't been a single terrorist attack here.

There have been multiple terrorist attacks in Europe. If it hasn't happened near you it's cause you live in an area that doesn't give much projection. Doesn't have to be a terrorist attack as well. Minor crime will increase as well when people realize they can abuse this.

Also, personal projection again. Very disrespectful to all those that died in terrorist attacks. Not a problem as long as it's not me eh? Disgusting.