Why is the Horde evil when Alliance is the one starting the wars? (maybe spoilers)

[Toppy]

Its been bothering the hell out of me lately. The Horde is almost always seen by the player base as the evil ones. But isnt it the Alliance that keeps sparking the conflicts? WotlK (into Cata and MoP) conflict was started by Varian, BfA started by Anduin, attempts at peace are typically stopped by either Nelves or a human. Zandalari seem to be joining the Horde due to Alliance screwing with them.

I mean yes, the Horde typically takes the conflicts WAY TO FAR, but they are pretty much responding to shit that the Alliance started in the first place. Then the Alliance bitch about how evil the Horde is for daring to fight back. Hell look at Theramore. It was very very clearly being used by the Alliance to start, and then supply, an invasion into the Barrens. So Horde of course attack it. Then Jaina cries about neutrality while very clearly not subscribing towards that standard herself.

[Deleted]

Clearly bait.

[Deleted]

This is clearly bait and since this is mmo-champion someone will take it hook line and sinker.

[Toppy]

Clearly bait.

Care to elaborate? I have no problem being wrong if I'm missing something.

[Dellis0991]

Somebody fishing because all I see is bait.

[Faroth]

Its been bothering the hell out of me lately. The Horde is almost always seen by the player base as the evil ones. But isnt it the Alliance that keeps sparking the conflicts? WotlK (into Cata and MoP) conflict was started by Varian, BfA started by Anduin, attempts at peace are typically stopped by either Nelves or a human. Zandalari seem to be joining the Horde due to Alliance screwing with them.

Any conflict in WotLK between Horde and Alliance was the Alliance responding to apparent aggression by the Horde, perpetrated by the machinations of Varimathras. Despite that, a peace treaty was signed after the Lich King's defeat.

Cataclysm and subsequently MoP was spurred by ramifications of Varimathras' plans' culmination at the Wrath Gate followed by the scarcity of resources and actions of the Twilight Hammer. Tensions exploded as Garrosh decided the Horde should gloriously take anything they wanted rather than pursue diplomatic negotiations.

BfA I've not seen anything confirming how events play out to trigger the new war, but thus far we only know the Horde go to Silithus and start mining a new resource.

The Alliance doesn't start these wars, they respond to apparent Horde aggression. The problem being, the Horde is often set up by a third party to appear the aggressors.


The fact that neither the Horde NOR Alliance ever learned of the Twilight Hammer's shenanigans in Ashenvale to trigger Garrosh's war still amuses me.

[Dellis0991]

Care to elaborate? I have no problem being wrong if I'm missing something.

Alliance nor the horde have instigated anything so large scale as this since Garrosh nuked Thereamore, most of the fights have been small scaled stuff between groups and not whole factions like orcs and night elves battling at the borders between Ashenvale and the barrens or Mulgore keeping humans (and centaurs) from encroaching or mountaineers going to close to Lorderon fringes and getting captured (poor bastard)....so yeah your baiting

[Kharli]

Its been bothering the hell out of me lately. The Horde is almost always seen by the player base as the evil ones. But isnt it the Alliance that keeps sparking the conflicts? WotlK (into Cata and MoP) conflict was started by Varian, BfA started by Anduin, attempts at peace are typically stopped by either Nelves or a human. Zandalari seem to be joining the Horde due to Alliance screwing with them.

I mean yes, the Horde typically takes the conflicts WAY TO FAR, but they are pretty much responding to shit that the Alliance started in the first place. Then the Alliance bitch about how evil the Horde is for daring to fight back. Hell look at Theramore. It was very very clearly being used by the Alliance to start, and then supply, an invasion into the Barrens. So Horde of course attack it. Then Jaina cries about neutrality while very clearly not subscribing towards that standard herself.

Ok, time to take a stop down there.

YEs, the Alliance does start shit, but so does the Horde.

Classic - each side is seen as evil, by the other side skirmishes every where(BG's)

Burning Crusade - no real 'evil', as we were fighting the burning legion, minor skirmishes(BGs)

Wrath of the Lichking - When did Varian do agression? if you mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEylX2LJ8c4 Both sides Varian and Garrosh acts on their own accords, mind Varian only recently returned having to deal with Onyxia and prior to that he had been a slave under the orcs, Garrosh had pretty much joined the Horde only recently being fed historys and stories about his father from Thrall.

If you wish to be technical about it, The Forsaken are to be blamed for the war following the events of Wrath, due to the bombing of the wrath gate.

Cataclysm, both sides reeling in the aftermatch of Deathwing breaking the world pillar causing massive destruction on both the Horde and Alliance, Garrosh was put in charge by thrall, you know the guy who don't like humans or the Alliance while Varian was still in charge of the Alliance.

Now, two hurt points of Cataclysm.

Turajo and Theramore, and in some parts southshore.

Right so Camp Turajo, it was a camp which hosted Horde warriors, thus it was targeted by Alliance Forces because the Alliance and the horde were at war, major intel fuck up on the Alliance side, about the civlians running into quillboar lands, yes it could have been avoided had the Alliance Forces known about the quillboars, as stated by the Alliance QuestGiver, he does not want any civilian casualties.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/General_Hawthorne

to enquote:For his own part, High Chieftain Baine Bloodhoof accepted that Camp Taurajo was a legitimate military target, as they did train hunters and warriors there, and knew that Hawthorne refused to have its civilians slaughtered

Theramore:, yes it was a military target without a doubt and yes Jaina is hypocrite regarding the Horde's actions.

Southshore:It was plauged by the the Forsaken, and yes you can consider it a miltary target, just like Camp Taurajo as it did have civilian population but also Alliance Military pressence.


During MoP, in the Intro the factions are currently at war, as seen in the Horde Trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg5w0SgGodo

"Re-direct the invasion fleet, General you and your best veterans will pave our way Storm the Shore and paint this continent red! " - Garrosh Hellscream, Warchief of the Horde.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-fwIItoykA
the alliance version of it, Yes the Horde and Alliance are at war, Varian at this point only cares for his son's safety as seen in the trailer.

The ending of seige of orgrimmar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXKMHMQNo8I

Yes, Varian is a giant asshole, but he was willing to bring peace to the table, even after what The Hordes Warchief had done to that point (yes, Garrosh was the horde's Warchief untill He died. )

Any conflict in WotLK between Horde and Alliance was the Alliance responding to apparent aggression by the Horde, perpetrated by the machinations of Varimathras. Despite that, a peace treaty was signed after the Lich King's defeat.

Cataclysm and subsequently MoP was spurred by ramifications of Varimathras' plans' culmination at the Wrath Gate followed by the scarcity of resources and actions of the Twilight Hammer. Tensions exploded as Garrosh decided the Horde should gloriously take anything they wanted rather than pursue diplomatic negotiations.

BfA I've not seen anything confirming how events play out to trigger the new war, but thus far we only know the Horde go to Silithus and start mining a new resource.

The Alliance doesn't start these wars, they respond to apparent Horde aggression. The problem being, the Horde is often set up by a third party to appear the aggressors.


The fact that neither the Horde NOR Alliance ever learned of the Twilight Hammer's shenanigans in Ashenvale to trigger Garrosh's war still amuses me.

This, it's usally a third party unfortunately like the Twilight's hammer., aka the creepy people who worships the old gods.


TL: DR; Both factions are equally bad, and yes I would love to see the Alliance going:Fuck this, we are so damn done with your utter bullshit, we are going to deal with you once and for all, and both factions are equally dumb for not actully realising something is off.

[Toppy]

Alliance nor the horde have instigated anything so large scale as this since Garrosh nuked Thereamore, most of the fights have been small scaled stuff between groups and not whole factions like orcs and night elves battling at the borders between Ashenvale and the barrens or Mulgore keeping humans (and centaurs) from encroaching or mountaineers going to close to Lorderon fringes and getting captured (poor bastard)....so yeah your baiting

Using Theramore is kinda dumb given Theramore was openly and unquestionably being used as a base for an active invasion into the barrens.

[Ton00]

well orcs are from dreanor so kinda invaders tbh

[Trassk]

well orcs are from dreanor so kinda invaders tbh

Didn't you hear, orcs have barely any influence over the horde anymore.

[Toppy]

Ok, time to take a stop down there.

YEs, the Alliance does start shit, but so does the Horde.

Classic - each side is seen as evil, by the other side skirmishes every where(BG's)

Burning Crusade - no real 'evil', as we were fighting the burning legion, minor skirmishes(BGs)
etc....

I do not doubt that Horde goes WAY to far. I never doubted that, I even bolded it in my original post to point out I know that Horde always goes way to far.

My problem is with how it seems that the Alliance tends to start it. A lot of your post is stuff that happened during war so its a bit of a moot point. My focus is on who started it.

The Alliance had no problem admitting that the Wrathgate was started by a group that was also against the Horde and knew for a fact that the Horde was also bombed in that same attack. So what does Varian do? Tries to kill Thrall until Jaina stops him.

Then we have Cata where both sides are trying to peace. Until Garona attacks at a peace conference hitting both Horde and Alliance. With this clear show of not picking a side, Varian condemns the entire Horde and war begins anew. A war that ends at the end of MoP.

- - - Updated - - -

well orcs are from dreanor so kinda invaders tbh

And there's no question that the invasion of WC1 and WC2 was caused by demons controlling the entire race.

Or that the Orcs redeemed themselves of this at WC3 where they helped save the whole world.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The alliance didn’t start the war in cata im pretty sure we see it start in wolf heart.

[Ton00]

doesn't matter if there not controlled by demons any more still not there land by claim

[Combatbutler]

The alliance didn’t start the war in cata im pretty sure we see it start in wolf heart.

Depends there are different sources, though the horde should start it, the troops of Theramore struck before the cataclysm hit. Blizz as usually didn't pay much attention to the very fine details.

OT

Because the horde is established as the aggressive assertive factions that believes the world owes them

The Alliance on the other hand are the ones who react to said threat and otherwise don't consider the horde worth their while.

[Toppy]

doesn't matter if there not controlled by demons any more still not there land by claim

Yet, lets say, Lordaeron is the Alliances land to claim somehow? Stormwind does not own other humans nations.

Barrens and Durotar were unclaimed lands. Mulgore and Echo Isle already were lands of the Tauren and Trolls.

So what land are you talking about? If you want to get that technical, mankind and the elves are sitting on Trolls lands.

[Mehrunes]

Its been bothering the hell out of me lately. The Horde is almost always seen by the player base as the evil ones. But isnt it the Alliance that keeps sparking the conflicts? WotlK (into Cata and MoP) conflict was started by Varian, BfA started by Anduin, attempts at peace are typically stopped by either Nelves or a human. Zandalari seem to be joining the Horde due to Alliance screwing with them.

I mean yes, the Horde typically takes the conflicts WAY TO FAR, but they are pretty much responding to shit that the Alliance started in the first place. Then the Alliance bitch about how evil the Horde is for daring to fight back. Hell look at Theramore. It was very very clearly being used by the Alliance to start, and then supply, an invasion into the Barrens. So Horde of course attack it. Then Jaina cries about neutrality while very clearly not subscribing towards that standard herself.

Because the salty part of Alliance consists of the biggest fanfiction peddlers in the multiverse and they like to cherry-pick everything that's inconvenient to the narrative of them being poor, innocent victims.

Any conflict in WotLK between Horde and Alliance was the Alliance responding to apparent aggression by the Horde, perpetrated by the machinations of Varimathras. Despite that, a peace treaty was signed after the Lich King's defeat.

Except the Alliance already knew of the coup in Undercity. That's the very reason why they went there, to capture it (well, that and avenging Bolvar) while the Forsaken were forced out. Varian still declared war. And there was no peace treaty after WotLK, only a truce.

Cataclysm and subsequently MoP was spurred by ramifications of Varimathras' plans' culmination at the Wrath Gate followed by the scarcity of resources and actions of the Twilight Hammer. Tensions exploded as Garrosh decided the Horde should gloriously take anything they wanted rather than pursue diplomatic negotiations.

Diplomatic negotiations with whom? The Alliance? Alliance broke a trade treaty that the Orcs needed and that was supposed to bring peace over Wrathgate. A year after it happened, after Alliance already started a war over it, after a truce has been reached to prevent the war from spiraling out of control.

Then when the first Twilight Hammer attack happened they demanded Orc blood, ignoring the fact that the actual perpetrators weren't known. And that's ignoring the fact they weren't actually known weren't even in the Horde, I'm talking about the concept of the identity pertaining to individual people. And yet, when Thrall told them that he can't turn the guilty over because no one knows who the hell they are, and as such he needs to investigate, Alliance treated it like an offense to their great ancestors.

Then Jaina's forces randomly attacked Barrens, tried to conquer Crossroads and captured Honor's Stand. Before Cataclysm and as such before Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale. I.e. Alliance broke the truce.

Great partner for diplomatic attempts, really.

BfA I've not seen anything confirming how events play out to trigger the new war, but thus far we only know the Horde go to Silithus and start mining a new resource.

The Alliance doesn't start these wars, they respond to apparent Horde aggression. The problem being, the Horde is often set up by a third party to appear the aggressors.

Except Alliance attacks the Horde in Silithus. Is Horde mining a new resource an "apparent Horde aggression" as well?

Alliance nor the horde have instigated anything so large scale as this since Garrosh nuked Thereamore, most of the fights have been small scaled stuff between groups and not whole factions like orcs and night elves battling at the borders between Ashenvale and the barrens or Mulgore keeping humans (and centaurs) from encroaching or mountaineers going to close to Lorderon fringes and getting captured (poor bastard)....so yeah your baiting

Yeah, Alliance only launched invasion in Durotar, Barrens and Mulgore in Cata. Just the heartland of the Horde. Or Forsaken's backyard in WPL. They also planned an attack on Orgrimmar. Small scale stuff all around.

Ok, time to take a stop down there.

YEs, the Alliance does start shit, but so does the Horde.

Classic - each side is seen as evil, by the other side skirmishes every where(BG's)

Alliance started Alterac Valley. They did the same thing as they did in AV in Mulgore and the Barrens as well. They started things in Ambermill as well. And held Forsaken prisoners in Hillsbrad. The zone where Horde guilt is apparent is just Ashenvale, where they encroached on Night Elven territory. The rest of skirmishes are unknown.

Wrath of the Lichking - When did Varian do agression? if you mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEylX2LJ8c4 Both sides Varian and Garrosh acts on their own accords, mind Varian only recently returned having to deal with Onyxia and prior to that he had been a slave under the orcs, Garrosh had pretty much joined the Horde only recently being fed historys and stories about his father from Thrall.

Varian declared war in Undercity.

If you wish to be technical about it, The Forsaken are to be blamed for the war following the events of Wrath, due to the bombing of the wrath gate.

Forsaken aren't responsible for the actions of the people that rise in open rebellion against them.

The alliance didn’t start the war in cata im pretty sure we see it start in wolf heart.

Honor's Stand was already captured before the events of Wolfheart.

OT

Because the horde is established as the aggressive assertive factions that believes the world owes them

The Alliance on the other hand are the ones who react to said threat and otherwise don't consider the horde worth their while.

And yet most of the fights in WoW itself are started by the Alliance. The claim that Alliance is only reactionary had nothing to support it even in Vanilla. It became more and more flimsy as the game progressed. The picture the game actually paints is that of Alliance being imperialist warmongers that can't leave the Horde be and who are willing to use the most ridiculous justifications for more war to satiate their war boner.

[Combatbutler]

And yet most of the fights in WoW itself are started by the Alliance. The claim that Alliance is only reactionary had nothing to support it even in Vanilla. It became more and more flimsy as the game progressed. The picture the game actually paints is that of Alliance being imperialist warmongers that can't leave the Horde be and who are willing to use the most ridiculous justifications for more war to satiate their war boner.

This plays in the horde isn't worth their while, meaning they can ignore them, since they are a bunch of primitive savages. Which is why dwarves drove tauren from their homes in the southern barrens to build Bael Modan, or setting up a camp in Mulgore digging around, despite being told to leave etc. They simply don't consider the horde races their equals and as such their ignorance breeds aggression and conflict.

[Mehrunes]

This plays in the horde isn't worth their while, meaning they can ignore them, since they are a bunch of primitive savages. Which is why dwarves drove tauren from their homes in the southern barrens to build Bael Modan, or setting up a camp in Mulgore digging around, despite being told to leave etc. They simply don't consider the horde races their equals and as such their ignorance breeds aggression and conflict.

But they also start outright attacks, like in Undercity, Barrens before Cata, Stormheim or Silithus.

[Combatbutler]

But they also start outright attacks, like in Undercity, Barrens before Cata, Stormheim or Silithus.

True, but these situations are also muddied, since old grudges are involved. One side might see it as overdue payback, the other does not and voila typical conflict. Too bad the factions are so static, some real politics would be nice in all of this.