Scaling in Classic

[A dot Ham]

IIrc the great achievement of WoW back then was that this lul never happened. The great innovation that Blizzard brought to the MMO scene back then was: "you never run out of quests". So there was no "grinding" as in having to kill 10 million bunnies for xp before being able to go to the next area.

I think the biggest drain back then was that it was all new and there were no guides, fan sites and wiki pages to tell people what to do and when. Hey, I started in BC and even at that point people actually sold "optimal leveling" guides and addons. It wasnt a matter of there not being enough quests, there were so many that you could actually optimise for quicker leveling.

This is just flat out false. You did have to grind... many people experienced it. A quick search for a 1-60 leveling guide

http://xoma-rnd.narod.ru/1-60-horde-...uide-v1.06.htm
(Don't click on anything... lots of pop ups) Just Read.
Published in December of 2004

A quick search on the page yields 76 times where he/she talks about grinding... half a level here... half a level there... a few mobs here... etc.

For perspective.

Patch 1.2 added December 18 of 2004 included Maraudon for players 30-44
Patch 1.3 added March 7 of 2005 added DM for players 36-52

These were major fixes/additions to the game. Needless to say the 1-60 game was not fully fleshed out until ~April of 2005.

I'm not fabricating some fiction here, and this should be sufficient evidence to support my claims.

I know that WoW continued to experience growth even through BC... and if you joined up and started playing the game toward the end of vanilla/beginning of BC... your experience was probably far more positive than the rest of us "true veterans"... just kidding about the true veterans thing... we don't need that BS here.

[Lolsteak]

Because if you think you are getting Vanilla down to the dot then that is silly. It will have bugfixes. It will be integrated into Battle.net and supposedly the retail client.

They will NOT release a buggy product just because "that's how Vanilla was". Any gamebreaking/fatal bugs will be fixed. It's basic quality control standards.

They won't however add stuff like LFR, LFD, scaling and whatnot.

And? Bugs / Exploits are not part of the classic experience and are obviously going to be fixed, Bnet integration (As long as it's only cross game chat) also doesn't affect the classic experience.

Bringing in bugs / exploit fixes into a thread talking about core game changes is more foolish imo.

[Julmara]

vanilla shoud be the same shit that you all wanted the best is you get hd models and not more

[Lochton]

So it looks like you are going to have to purchase BfA to play classic.

How would you feel if they added scaling to leveling in classic?

My gut says no, as that is just too many changes that detract from the essence of what it is or should be.

On the other hand, it would eliminate those lulls we have/had in the leveling process. Lulls where you have completed everything in a given zone, and are too low in level to really progress to the next zone, so you grind out a few levels.

Personally, I think I'd still play either way, but I think it opens the door to too many other QoL changes that just aren't vanilla. What do you think?

Adding scaling to classic wouldn't make sense, it would be a core bit of the adventure changed, but then zones were easily to complete and connect with your leveling, so the scaling wouldn't really be needed.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Wait what confirmation do we have about purchases? Honestly, scaling all the world and dungeons was the best thing they ever did on live. I'd love for them to do it in actual classic too, as there are so many dungeons that no one ever does. Won't happen though.

[deniter]

This is just flat out false. You did have to grind... many people experienced it. A quick search for a 1-60 leveling guide

http://xoma-rnd.narod.ru/1-60-horde-...uide-v1.06.htm
(Don't click on anything... lots of pop ups) Just Read.
Published in December of 2004

A quick search on the page yields 76 times where he/she talks about grinding... half a level here... half a level there... a few mobs here... etc.

For perspective.

Patch 1.2 added December 18 of 2004 included Maraudon for players 30-44
Patch 1.3 added March 7 of 2005 added DM for players 36-52

These were major fixes/additions to the game. Needless to say the 1-60 game was not fully fleshed out until ~April of 2005.

I'm not fabricating some fiction here, and this should be sufficient evidence to support my claims.

I know that WoW continued to experience growth even through BC... and if you joined up and started playing the game toward the end of vanilla/beginning of BC... your experience was probably far more positive than the rest of us "true veterans"... just kidding about the true veterans thing... we don't need that BS here.

All those leveling guides skip every dungeon. As i said earlier, skipping dungeons and especially dungeon quests will eventually lead to quest draught. The guides compensate this by advising to grind every now and then, and it's not a bad advice even if you were playing casually.

And in earlier patches there were some quest hubs still missing, so there was fewer quests to complete to begin with.

[A dot Ham]

All those leveling guides skip every dungeon. As i said earlier, skipping dungeons and especially dungeon quests will eventually lead to quest draught. The guides compensate this by advising to grind every now and then, and it's not a bad advice even if you were playing casually.

And in earlier patches there were some quest hubs still missing, so there was fewer quests to complete to begin with.

That coupled with this being a lot people's first mmo, being new to the game in general, one might see and understand how some might skip certain dungeons? Perhaps not by choice depending on how populated your server is/was?

I'm sorry which was it?

This:

And in earlier patches there were some quest hubs still missing, so there was fewer quests to complete to begin with.

or this:

There are more than enough quests to take you to lvl 60, no grinding required at all. If a player doesn't want to look or is too dumb to do so, no scaling will save him/her.

Those of us that had to do a little grinding were just a bunch of lazy dumb fucks I guess, amirite?

It never ceases to amaze me that in the face of contradictory information, some of you will still fight tooth and nail to "prove" the other "wrong". A simple, "I may have been mistaken, sorry for being a jerk." would suffice.

People also like to pretend like the "race" to level cap didn't exist back then either. It did. If you say around trying to find a group, and then ACTUALLY completed said dungeon and all of its quests. There was potential that your xp/hr would be greatly diminished. I was always 5 or more levels behind my friend and the guildies he was leveling with, and then doing 5 mans with, and then raid prepping with. By the time we started raiding doing content was no problem, and I remember significantly less grinding happening by the end of vanilla, on any subsequent alt I was leveling.

[deniter]

That coupled with this being a lot people's first mmo, being new to the game in general, one might see and understand how some might skip certain dungeons? Perhaps not by choice depending on how populated your server is/was?

I'm sorry which was it?

This:


or this:

Those of us that had to do a little grinding were just a bunch of lazy dumb fucks I guess, amirite?

It never ceases to amaze me that in the face of contradictory information, some of you will still fight tooth and nail to "prove" the other "wrong". A simple, "I may have been mistaken, sorry for being a jerk." would suffice.

I didn't mean to be a jerk, and i'm sorry if i have made such impression.

We're talking about upcoming classic servers here, and i'm pretty sure all those patched in quest hubs will be included in the game from day one, so you won't have to grind if you know where to find all those quests (and are not trying speed run). Casual players also run dungeons so they won't skip any dungeon quests either.

There are some players who can't understand how questing works in vanilla. They ask which zone is best after the current one and once they are told all of them has to be done in order to avoid mob grind in the future they inform that they don't like certain zone's atmosphere or that the walk is too long and they want to skip it. Some keep asking for help for high level quests that are far above their level, because they can't fathom you're not supposed to complete all quests in the zone at once but come back later when you're few levels higher and can solo them easily, or are too lazy to travel between zones for suitable quests. They then think they're forced to grind out the missing levels, even tho in reality there are lots of quests elsewhere but they never even try to find them. I expect this to happen also in blizzard classic realms and especially now when people have gotten used to this 'zone-by-zone' kind of questing with no green, yellow and red quests.

[A dot Ham]

I didn't mean to be a jerk, and i'm sorry if i have made such impression.

We're talking about upcoming classic servers here, and i'm pretty sure all those patched in quest hubs will be included in the game from day one, so you won't have to grind if you know where to find all those quests (and are not trying speed run). Casual players also run dungeons so they won't skip any dungeon quests either.

There are some players who can't understand how questing works in vanilla. They ask which zone is best after the current one and once they are told all of them has to be done in order to avoid mob grind in the future they inform that they don't like certain zone's atmosphere or that the walk is too long and they want to skip it. Some keep asking for help for high level quests that are far above their level, because they can't fathom you're not supposed to complete all quests in the zone at once but come back later when you're few levels higher and can solo them easily, or are too lazy to travel between zones for suitable quests. They then think they're forced to grind out the missing levels, even tho in reality there are lots of quests elsewhere but they never even try to find them. I expect this to happen also in blizzard classic realms and especially now when people have gotten used to this 'zone-by-zone' kind of questing with no green, yellow and red quests.

I agree I think it will be (I have no idea I never played on Nost, or Nost-like servers) a totally different atmosphere than original vanilla, by simple virtue that it isn't NEW to anyone. I mean as a perfect example I could really good use out of the extra fire dmg from melee strikes on my warlock via firestone... like way more than any sane person should have. I was a noob among noobs. I wasted a ton of gold on head slots, and shoulder slots while leveling, and I spent far too much getting a full dreadmist set, when I should have been focusing on a FR set. I also would have probably spent way more time on a single character than on multiple characters.

[Deleted]

itll likely be vanilla with graphics upgrades, bug fixes, and thats it.

its likely over time small current things will get integrated that arent massive in game but just save hassle, e.g. joined markets for AH rather than city specific. But nothing major like class spec balancing and spell revamps.

using current server specs to allow as many debuffs would be nice as well, i know theres hardcore "ORIGINAL VANILLA OOO YEAHHHH" out there but ive played on many private servers and still wouldnt mind a few modern updates to enhance vanilla. not just sit fapping with rose goggles.

e.g. did i love raiding in vanill? YES

did i love the levelling?

HELL NO. ( at the time was only real MMO so no choice but in 2018?!?!? )

[Specialka]

You're a fool if you think they ain't making changes with Classic. Period. Lol.

Scaling's too much, though.

Do not worry, I do not intend to play Classic and I know there will be changes. BUT I would like no change because ppl would realize that Vanilla was shit so it would end up in massive failure.

[hulkgor]

So it looks like you are going to have to purchase BfA to play classic.

How would you feel if they added scaling to leveling in classic?

My gut says no, as that is just too many changes that detract from the essence of what it is or should be.

On the other hand, it would eliminate those lulls we have/had in the leveling process. Lulls where you have completed everything in a given zone, and are too low in level to really progress to the next zone, so you grind out a few levels.

Personally, I think I'd still play either way, but I think it opens the door to too many other QoL changes that just aren't vanilla. What do you think?

Certainly hope not. Not vanilla -at all-.

It's also a bit weird on PvP realms on live at the moment. Level 20s and level 60s crossing each other in every zone makes for a lot of 'casual' griefing, whereas before, at least people would be on the same level range whilst playing on any particular zone.

[Akka]

How would you feel if they added scaling to leveling in classic?

FUCK NO !

Scaling is the most retarded concept ever imagined in any game. It's a personal pet peeve. It's conceptually idiotic and should never exist ever, even less in something that is specifically about bringing back a better original design.
Get the fuck this idea out.

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On the other hand, it would eliminate those lulls we have/had in the leveling process. Lulls where you have completed everything in a given zone, and are too low in level to really progress to the next zone, so you grind out a few levels.

Weird, I remember grinding fucking npcs in eastern plaguelands to get to 60 on my priest...

Well, you missed a lot of quests then.
It's the most common hoax about Vanilla, and I'm tired to debunk it.
You. Never. Ever. Ever. Ever. Had. To. Grind. Mob. To. Level.
You might need to change zone (DUH !), you might need to switch continent, but you NEVER needed to grind.

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This is just flat out false. You did have to grind... many people experienced it.

Many people were retards who could not understand the concept of changing zone/continent.

A quick search for a 1-60 leveling guide

http://xoma-rnd.narod.ru/1-60-horde-...uide-v1.06.htm
(Don't click on anything... lots of pop ups) Just Read.
Published in December of 2004

A quick search on the page yields 76 times where he/she talks about grinding... half a level here... half a level there... a few mobs here... etc.

Leveling guide is about EFFICIENCY.
Grinding mob could be more EFFICIENT than traveling on another continent, gathering quests and doing them. It doesn't mean the quests didn't exist.

[Sastank]

Lol all these dumb threads. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE X MODERN FEATURE/ADDITION TO CLASSIC WOW? EX DEE GOOD BAIT

[Pickynerd]

Wait what confirmation do we have about purchases? Honestly, scaling all the world and dungeons was the best thing they ever did on live. I'd love for them to do it in actual classic too, as there are so many dungeons that no one ever does. Won't happen though.

There is absolutely zero reason to level scale vanilla, honestly it would do the opposite of retail and speed leveling up greatly.

[tipsoutbaby]

Scaling is not needed in Classic. Scaling was introduced in WoW as a solution to the problem of out-leveling zones before any major story quests could be concluded. This issue does not exist in Vanilla WoW, so why solve a problem that doesn't exist?

[Spiffums]

I remember grinding........not because I was out of quests but because I was so noobie I didn't know where the quests were. I wouldn't trade those learning days for nothing!

[Maudib]

You're a fool if you think they ain't making changes with Classic. Period. Lol.

Scaling's too much, though.

Not changing a thing.

[A dot Ham]

FUCK NO !

Scaling is the most retarded concept ever imagined in any game. It's a personal pet peeve. It's conceptually idiotic and should never exist ever, even less in something that is specifically about bringing back a better original design.
Get the fuck this idea out.

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Well, you missed a lot of quests then.
It's the most common hoax about Vanilla, and I'm tired to debunk it.
You. Never. Ever. Ever. Ever. Had. To. Grind. Mob. To. Level.
You might need to change zone (DUH !), you might need to switch continent, but you NEVER needed to grind.

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Many people were retards who could not understand the concept of changing zone/continent.

Leveling guide is about EFFICIENCY.
Grinding mob could be more EFFICIENT than traveling on another continent, gathering quests and doing them. It doesn't mean the quests didn't exist.

I like how you very pointedly disregard the fact that they are still adding quests, and dungeons for levels 30-52 into March (5 months after launch). In 1.2 & 1.3 there are numerous quest fixes.

Also as you are so quick to point out, these guides ARE INDEED about efficiency, and if it is deemed that grinding is more efficient than heading to X Zone for X Quests, then something is wrong because as a general rule questing > grinding. More than likely the quests you are so vaguely referring to are/were not appropriately tuned/scaled for them to be worthwhile. Which would mean that they would only benefit from scaling mechanics.

The whole idea behind scaling is to provide an appropriate challenge and reward for a player's efforts. The fact that "quests" exist isn't/wasn't the issue. Its that the ones available weren't worth completing because the xp sucked, or the rewards did.

A person missed out on a good portion of available quests just by choosing either alliance or horde. There are/were also some quests/zones you could choose between and not see at all before you out leveled them. Which is really the ENTIRE point. Those areas could benefit from scaling. A zone full of gray quests with mobs that no longer give xp, doesn't benefit the player at all unless they're a completionist.

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Scaling is not needed in Classic. Scaling was introduced in WoW as a solution to the problem of out-leveling zones before any major story quests could be concluded. This issue does not exist in Vanilla WoW, so why solve a problem that doesn't exist?

True.

But there are entire zones that people choose not to visit or ever go back to (unless they level an alt or are completionist) that could/would benefit from scaling. Which is really kind of beside the point, if you're truly honest about your vanilla experience you can/could see how scaling would positively impact the game.

On the scale/necessity of what it was for live post cataclysm/heirlooms... probably not.


-------------------------------------------------


Its a simple question would you accept it... or reject it. This thread wasn't supposed to be a dick measuring contest to see how truly vanilla a veteran any one was or wasn't.

[Akka]

I like how you very pointedly disregard the fact that they are still adding quests, and dungeons for levels 30-52 into March (5 months after launch). In 1.2 & 1.3 there are numerous quest fixes.

I ignore it because it's irrelevant, there were already more than enough quests in 1.0 already, not even counting dungeons.

Also as you are so quick to point out, these guides ARE INDEED about efficiency, and if it is deemed that grinding is more efficient than heading to X Zone for X Quests, then something is wrong because as a general rule questing > grinding.

That's, again, irrelevant. The complaint about grinding is that it's boring, not that it's slow. It's just moving the goalposts. Fact stays : there was no need to grind, you could level up through quests alone. Efficiency of grinding is beside the point.

More than likely the quests you are so vaguely referring to are/were not appropriately tuned/scaled for them to be worthwhile. Which would mean that they would only benefit from scaling mechanics.

Nonsensical. It's more about time needed to travel, and guides being strictly about rushing (which is, BTW, a completely retarded idea to balance a game around, making your entire reasoning bad).

The whole idea behind scaling is to provide an appropriate challenge and reward for a player's efforts. The fact that "quests" exist isn't/wasn't the issue. Its that the ones available weren't worth completing because the xp sucked, or the rewards did.

The whole concept of scaling is removing the effect of leveling up. It's adding an artificial and immersion-breaking system to counter another system that was implemented. Adding scaling just means removing leveling, but through two counter-acting systems rather than through simply dropping leveling. That's just stupid.
It also adds a HUGE anti-immersion effect (the entire world becomes stronger when one character becomes stronger), completely removes the whole progression aspect, destroys the world structure (all zones become the same instead of having less dangerous zones and more dangerous ones), adds counterintuitive and mechanically absurd layers that makes the world artificial (mob having simultaneously different stats to different players), and also downright DOESN'T WORK IN VANILLA (because Vanilla is BUILT on the principle of having low-level and high-level zones, because unlike Legion it has several ranks of materials).

It's also a shitty idea to destroy progression in a RPG. I can't even believe I actually need to point that out.
The cretin who invented level scaling should be drowned in boiling oil

A person missed out on a good portion of available quests just by choosing either alliance or horde. There are/were also some quests/zones you could choose between and not see at all before you out leveled them.

You can't outlevel a zone by accident in Vanilla. It's not Cataclysm. Also, the world being big enough that you don't need to see it ALL in one leveling is kind of the point of it being an actual world instead of a linear action game like Cata onward.

Which is really the ENTIRE point. Those areas could benefit from scaling. A zone full of gray quests with mobs that no longer give xp, doesn't benefit the player at all unless they're a completionist.

And on the other hand, if they aren't a completionist, why would they care that some zone half a continent away that they never set foot in, has grey mob ?

Each and every one of your argument is wrong.