1. #8041
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    That's why I am complaining, or are you so willfully ignorant to overlook the point I've been making. She is a support character with some of the strongest heals in the game (for certain comps), but people aren't playing her that way because she also does good damage. Some might say too much.
    When someone picks her as solo heal, for example, but plays her as damage then they effectively leave their team with no support; however, because of this they aren't technically playing her wrong.
    Now, let me ask you, if someone goes Mercy and doesn't heal and strictly plays battle Mercy because that player can actually hit shots, or goes Lucio and never turns on healing boost but instead leaves on speed 100%, do you get upset? If you don't, and think you never get upset that a person who can heal you chooses not to, then by all means keep talking about no problem with Moira. If you've ever once complained about not getting healed or would stay completely calm and not care about a battle Mercy, then you need to reevaluate the side of the arguement you're on.
    She does ok damage, people play her as damage because they are for the first times in their lives not dying in 1v1 because they have lifesteal and shift.

  2. #8042
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Except they changed Mercy multiple times. They've changed Symmetra and Widowmaker. They've changed Bastion, Hog, and Junkrat. Granted, not all of these are because of "bad" players, but some have been.
    Rein charging thru a point can actually work out. Sure, if they fail they are less likely to do it again, and if they succeed they are more likely to do it. Part of those comes down to learning characters and timing. Sometimes Rein doing a suicide charge is just that, but used for the group. If coordinated, it can turn the choke into the attackers favor as the enemy turns to burn Rein your team is in turn killing them. Hell, its one of the main themes of a dive comp, it's just Rein isn't the best dive tank.
    Is the Sombra hacking a baby DVa to keep her out of mech? Is Sombra hacking Torb to keep him from dropping armor packs? Sure, on the surface these are considered dumb things, but in the right hands (and with players that have awareness/aim) these things can lead to picks and turn the tide.
    As Rein I have been hacked into a corner with a Reaper coming at me. Sometimes my shield is up because I'm near death and I'm hoping my team will come back soon, or maybe those 1-3 extra seconds I'm alive will let my team push in because Reaper hasn't been able to set back up near the choke. Is it optimal? No, but if I'm low on health and my choice is being killed instantly with my shield down or tie up Reaper for a few seconds, I'd rather tie him up. Hell, sometimes I will jump off a cliff because there's 4 enemies and I'm all that's left. Most people consider that bad play and I should have tried jumping on point for a second. If I'm not able to hold a point solo, why would I give the enemy Ult charge?
    There's always things that can be considered dumb/bad play at surface level that may have little intricacies.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If people play her to her strengths, 1 of which is as a flanker to opposing support and as an antiflanker to Tracer and Genji, and stay alive, then they are not playing her suboptimally. That is why people play her the way they do as damage dealers while healing is secondary. Her damage is high, both beam and orb, as well as giving her a lot of Ult charge per use.
    That doesn't make people playing her bad, that is people using her based on her playstyle.
    As someone who typically plays support, Moira is a lot of fun and is definitely strong. Guess what, I've also left my team to go act as a flanker in games, usually netting a pick or 2 while making it back unscathed. Do I do this all the time? No, but in games where we have 2 support and the other one is doing fine then I switch my game up and play backup support, only healing in major team pushes. Am I technically a bad player for doing this? You tell me. If my team doesn't die, I get a pick or 2, and I don't die, am I for playing her strengths to her abilities? Now, flip that, am I a bad player for playing this exact same playstyle but my team dies because of it? If you say yes, then why? I'm still playing to her strengths. The only thing that's changed is my teammates.
    As stated, a nerf to her damage and you would see her healing a lot more. The issue comes down to how much.
    They have never changed a character because people are bad at playing them correctly.
    If you push a button that finds you a 'random group' and it gives you a random group of people with random skill and random knowledge then you have no right to complain that a 'random group' button did what it was designed to do. The fault lies in your inability to make friends to play with instead of relying on a button designed to be random. It is a 'random group' button, not a 'best of the best' button.

  3. #8043
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    They have never changed a character because people are bad at playing them correctly.
    No, but they will change a hero if that character's current state encourages people to play them in an unintended manner. If a hero that is designed as a healer becomes so good at dealing damage (or poor at healing) that it is better to play them as DPS rather than as a support, that is definitely something Blizzard would look at to balance. They have in the past, and I'm sure they will again in the future.

    That said, I don't know that this is the case at the moment. Sometimes it can be hard to tell if a hero has balance issues or people just haven't really gotten a feel for how to correctly play or counter them. It's not uncommon to hear newer heroes called both underpowered and overpowered simultaneously within the playerbase.


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  4. #8044
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    No, but they will change a hero if that character's current state encourages people to play them in an unintended manner. If a hero that is designed as a healer becomes so good at dealing damage (or poor at healing) that it is better to play them as DPS rather than as a support, that is definitely something Blizzard would look at to balance. They have in the past, and I'm sure they will again in the future.

    That said, I don't know that this is the case at the moment. Sometimes it can be hard to tell if a hero has balance issues or people just haven't really gotten a feel for how to correctly play or counter them. It's not uncommon to hear newer heroes called both underpowered and overpowered simultaneously within the playerbase.
    It isn't that she is so good at doing DPS, it is that her lifesteal encourages people who tunnelvision into trying to get picks instead of healing. They get excited by not dying in the fight and neglect their team role.

  5. #8045
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laughing God View Post
    It isn't that she is so good at doing DPS, it is that her lifesteal encourages people who tunnelvision into trying to get picks instead of healing. They get excited by not dying in the fight and neglect their team role.
    To be clear, I wasn't saying that it applied (or didn't apply) to Moira; I'm honestly ignorant on which is the case with her.

    I am just saying that there are some situations in which Blizzard will change a hero because they are being played incorrectly: if the reason they are being played that way is because of poor tuning encouraging them to do so.


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  6. #8046
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    They have never changed a character because people are bad at playing them correctly.
    I'd contest that the damage nerf to Ana was aimed at that, because it wasn't that that was causing her to be overpowered during triple tank. Also 'hide and seek res' apparently wasn't what was intended either.

    Anyhow, after a couple of days off from it, I'm right back into Gold. Didn't take many matches to get 300SR back at all. Just another couple hundred to go to get back where I think I should be. Still very comfortable net SR gains so still shouldn't take long, just needs those few wins.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2018-02-07 at 09:48 PM.

  7. #8047
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    They have never changed a character because people are bad at playing them correctly.
    McCree, Ana, and Mercy would all like a word with you.
    McCree: antiflanker/Pharah counter=played incorrectly as a tank killer because of his early design. He could still do the other 2, but was used more to take out tanks over the other 2. Design changed to make him weaker against tanks while still keeping an antiflanker style.
    Ana: healer/damage hybrid. Used mainly as a damage dealer while only using grenade to keep up her team and shooting at enemies. Design changed to nerf her grenade (and I believe damage. Been a while since the change to remeber if damage was nerfed) while buffing how her gun works for the team.
    Mercy: main support player designed to stay in a fight and help her team, given Rez to assist with keeping a team fight going. People played her as a "hide and rez" hero, building her Ult and then hiding from all team fights just to come in with a Rez. Design changed multiple times trying to get her away from this while keeping the identity of a main heal and Rez user.
    Moira: designed as damage/healer hybrid, able to pick off runners and evade flankers while giving them a little pressure to back off as needed. People play her as a flanker as well as damage dealer in a team fight due to the damage of her abilities, thinking only of healing after the fight is over, either bringing up their team or running away because their team died around them. No design change so far, possibly never to be one (although to expect one isn't unheard of as people are using her the complete opposite as well and running 4 tanks due to her high clumped heals).
    Fact is, multiple heroes have been changed because people are "bad" and play them "incorrectly" for what Blizzard designed the hero to be.

  8. #8048
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I'd contest that the damage nerf to Ana was aimed at that, because it wasn't that that was causing her to be overpowered during triple tank. Also 'hide and seek res' apparently wasn't what was intended either.

    Anyhow, after a couple of days off from it, I'm right back into Gold. Didn't take many matches to get 300SR back at all. Just another couple hundred to go to get back where I think I should be. Still very comfortable net SR gains so still shouldn't take long, just needs those few wins.
    Anna nerf had nothing to do with players playing her badly.
    If you push a button that finds you a 'random group' and it gives you a random group of people with random skill and random knowledge then you have no right to complain that a 'random group' button did what it was designed to do. The fault lies in your inability to make friends to play with instead of relying on a button designed to be random. It is a 'random group' button, not a 'best of the best' button.

  9. #8049
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    That's why I am complaining, or are you so willfully ignorant to overlook the point I've been making. She is a support character with some of the strongest heals in the game (for certain comps), but people aren't playing her that way because she also does good damage. Some might say too much.
    When someone picks her as solo heal, for example, but plays her as damage then they effectively leave their team with no support; however, because of this they aren't technically playing her wrong.
    If they aren't contributing to their team as much because their team isn't getting their heals, they're playing her wrong....that's my point.

    Why aren't you grasping this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Now, let me ask you, if someone goes Mercy and doesn't heal and strictly plays battle Mercy because that player can actually hit shots, or goes Lucio and never turns on healing boost but instead leaves on speed 100%, do you get upset? If you don't, and think you never get upset that a person who can heal you chooses not to, then by all means keep talking about no problem with Moira.
    That is the dumbest shit I've ever read. If you're battle mercy, you're playing suboptimal. If you aren't healing as Moira, you're playing suboptimal. Both of these have nothing to do with the hero, and everything to do with the person playing them.
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  10. #8050
    Sometimes this game just cracks me up. Enemy tries for a last ditch effort to make it to cap B and I'm on Orissa. Enemy Moira shifts past me, 76 trying to dash to point and I just body block him, punch once, shoot him in the head once for a death, orb Reaper out from behind a wall and kill him.
    So much fun hodyblocking people that just look like they are having a panic attack trying to get to point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Post View Post
    If they aren't contributing to their team as much because their team isn't getting their heals, they're playing her wrong....that's my point.

    Why aren't you grasping this.



    That is the dumbest shit I've ever read. If you're battle mercy, you're playing suboptimal. If you aren't healing as Moira, you're playing suboptimal. Both of these have nothing to do with the hero, and everything to do with the person playing them.
    Are you new to this arguement? Since the beginning I've been stating people are playing her wrong, which means Blizzard should (opinion) nerf her damage to get people to play her correctly. A nerf to her damage and you suddenly won't start seeing Moira players trying to flank and 1v1+ enemy players and will focus more on healing. Keeping her drain recharge the same but nerfing the damage of it will keep players with their team more while healing with her.
    Being the dumbest thing you've ever heard is exactly the point; however, when a playstyle encourages 1 over the other (such as Moira's does) then playing suboptimal in terms of healing will happen; however, when a character excels at what Moira does it is not suboptimal play until higher ranks (as I've also stated numerous times). Just because playing her in a way that some conceive wrong does not mean she is being played wrong. Good Moira players, again at lower ranks, can play to her current strengths and act as a flanker and only throw out minor heals, relying on their other support to keep the team alive until Moira is back.
    As stated, that's considered suboptimal, but there have been plenty of games where Moira's are now being talked about as OP and carrying a team, simply because she can excel at harassing a backline support and picking off stragglers. Even if she doesn't get the kill, she can usually still get 1-2 people to fall back, simply playing damage.

  11. #8051
    While I understand the frustration with Moira players not healing and wanting her adjusted so they might (more likely they just stop playing her), as someone who plays support to actually support I'd rather not have her nerfed. Being able to duel flankers myself on Moira is one of her important points, because the fact is that 99.99% of randoms won't lift a finger to help their support in trouble. It takes more time and effort, or might have lower chance of success in the first place, to fend them off on other supports, which means directly less time spent on actually healing / helping out the team while I'm forced to do that or end up dead. (Which inevitably leads to someone on the team to bitch about no heals, of course...) I'd much rather be healing than fighting flankers, but what can you do.

  12. #8052
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    however, when a playstyle encourages 1 over the other (such as Moira's does) then playing suboptimal in terms of healing will happen;
    It would only encourage it if her dps was the better option vs healing. If that was the case, you shouldn't be complaining about her not healing, because she's doing what is most beneficial to the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    however, when a character excels at what Moira does it is not suboptimal play until higher ranks (as I've also stated numerous times). Just because playing her in a way that some conceive wrong does not mean she is being played wrong.
    If it's not suboptimal then you shouldn't be complaining about it. You're complaining because her not healing is losing you games, meaning it is suboptimal, which means she isn't encouraged to be DPS only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twen View Post
    Being able to duel flankers myself on Moira is one of her important points, because the fact is that 99.99% of randoms won't lift a finger to help their support in trouble.
    Exactly, this is the kind of support we need, the ones that are fun to play and don't feel like a sitting duck. Just makes them more fun to play, which makes more people play them, which is good for everyone else.
    Last edited by Post; 2018-02-08 at 05:24 PM.
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  13. #8053
    This is about the most unpleasant, least fun Blizzard game I ever played.
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  14. #8054
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    This is about the most unpleasant, least fun Blizzard game I ever played.
    Its also the only blizzard game where if you post edgelord stuff on social media you can lose your account. Blizz breaking new boundaries

  15. #8055
    Banned Gandrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexisSanchez View Post
    Its also the only blizzard game where if you post edgelord stuff on social media you can lose your account. Blizz breaking new boundaries
    they have clarified they are only checking for game content

    you arent going to get banned because you publicly posted on facebook that you want to shove the barrel of a gun down your boss' throat and pull the trigger. but you will probably lose your job

  16. #8056
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    they have clarified they are only checking for game content

    you arent going to get banned because you publicly posted on facebook that you want to shove the barrel of a gun down your boss' throat and pull the trigger. but you will probably lose your job
    Would have been nice if they said thats how they rolled back when you brought the game but eh.

    And people that bad mouth their job/boss on social media deserve the shit they get because its so incredibly stupid to do that. Anyone clueless to the idea people in your life might be checking your social media need a reality check.

  17. #8057
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexisSanchez View Post
    Its also the only blizzard game where if you post edgelord stuff on social media you can lose your account. Blizz breaking new boundaries
    This is probably the thing furthest from the top of my list of grievance with this game.

    If you are a high profile streamer and you get all Fred Durst in voice chat, I don't give a shit, eat a dick and eat a suspension.
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  18. #8058
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    This is probably the thing furthest from the top of my list of grievance with this game.

    If you are a high profile streamer and you get all Fred Durst in voice chat, I don't give a shit, eat a dick and eat a suspension.
    Funny how they dont get IP banned and can just buy the game again brand new though eh

  19. #8059
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexisSanchez View Post
    Its also the only blizzard game where if you post edgelord stuff on social media you can lose your account. Blizz breaking new boundaries
    Only if by 'edgelord stuff' you mean cheating, griefing, etc.

    Anyhow, stuck to Deathmatch tonight. Experience last patch day taught me valuable lesson.

  20. #8060
    Looks like Sombra is getting a dps buff by reducing her spread by 10%, hack goes off faster (.65 seconds rather than .8) and her hack removes Genji wall climb, Pharah hover jets and mercy hover. She will no longer get ult charge from hacked healthpacks.
    If you push a button that finds you a 'random group' and it gives you a random group of people with random skill and random knowledge then you have no right to complain that a 'random group' button did what it was designed to do. The fault lies in your inability to make friends to play with instead of relying on a button designed to be random. It is a 'random group' button, not a 'best of the best' button.

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