Why is the Horde evil when Alliance is the one starting the wars? (maybe spoilers)

[Toppy]

No, but Horde likes to forget that they completely slaughtered everyone in Silverwind Refuge, Sentinels and civilians alike while the "evil" Alliance at least did let the civilians flee. How about bombing the druids? All good because Garrosh was really angry after it?

Why does the Horde like to forget that they helped the Scourge by attacking the Alliance forces from behind at the broken front? That alone would have been a good reason for an all out war on the Horde.

And no Varian was not really warmongering in Wraith in the end. He allowed Saurfang to get his fallen son after he was defeated.

Protip: At the broken front the Horde and Alliance were at war: one that Varian started.

Likewise Silverwind refuge was a military outpost and people did escape from it.

[chrisnumbers]

Starting a war isn't necessarily an evil act if the war is waged on evil itself.

[Plehnard]

Protip: At the broken front the Horde and Alliance were at war: one that Varian started.

Oh, and he did what? There was no single situation where the alliance attacked the horde directly between the under city event and the broken front. There's a big difference between words and action. The Horde actively started the war there.

Likewise Silverwind refuge was a military outpost and people did escape from it.

2 escaped from that. Now look at all the dead traders and trainers outside of it. That was not a battle, it was a massacre.

[Deleted]

Sister, war is neither good or evil. Some may say that the way it is conducted matters. But I know this, where holy intent treads, justice follows.

[Toppy]

Oh, and he did what? There was no single situation where the alliance attacked the horde directly between the under city event and the broken front. There's a big difference between words and action. The Horde actively started the war there.



2 escaped from that. Now look at all the dead traders and trainers outside of it. That was not a battle, it was a massacre.

Its still a war.

Again I do not doubt that the Horde always hits to hard. But Alliance hits first.

[GreenJesus]

Invasion requires entering the area, though. You can't really launch an invasion in Durotar without being in Durotar. Unless you meant the point of invading the Barrens was to get TO Durotar and Mulgore. When I first read it, I read it as meaning they actually did invade those locations.


We're labeling them Alliance when they weren't with the Alliance to further tarnish the Alliance then.



Yep. That sounds like dwarves to me! Stubborn to a fault.

Yes, the alliance landed boats and set up camp on the southern shores of Durotar. There is a quest chain to disrupt them by killing the captain and destroying their supplies.

[MikeBogina]

well orcs are from dreanor so kinda invaders tbh

Titanforged races are also invaders

[schwarzkopf]

Why is the policeman evil, when he is the one starting the violence (arresting that guy before he blows up the shopping centre).

It is complex wars, sides and morality OP

[MikeBogina]

Its still a war.

Again I do not doubt that the Horde always hits to hard. But Alliance hits first.

Starting in Cata, Alliance really fucked with the Orcs like crazy. They sent forces to Durotar(lvl 1-10 zone) started attacking horde in Northern and Southern barrens including wiping out a tauren village. Even worse, they attacked Thrall's ship that was going to save the world in the Goblin starting experience.

After that war is settled, in the beginning of Legion when Warchief Sylvanas' fleet is attacked by Genn and Admiral Rogers, which is the spark for BFA.

Don't stress it out too much with alliance players, they sometimes forget this is a 2 faction game and think anyone against the alliance are baddies.

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Why is the policeman evil, when he is the one starting the violence (arresting that guy before he blows up the shopping centre).

It is complex wars, sides and morality OP

kinda like going over to the middle east and "policing" a country to stop the evil terrorist... which then leads to actual terrorist

[rated]

well orcs are from dreanor so kinda invaders tbh

I think we're kind of past that point. Orcs are part of azeroth.

[Deleted]

Its still a war.

Again I do not doubt that the Horde always hits to hard. But Alliance hits first.

In Wotlk both factions had done skrimmishes to one another but never declare war on the other faction untill the event of the Warthgate. To question who started the whole mess would be to point fingers at one another without having anykind of resolution. Though the main perpetrator of all the betrayal by one faction within the forsaken and origin of the siege of UC would be Varimarthas who orquestated all the events to clear both the Alliance, the Horde and the LK in one blow. After that, the Horde is actually to blame for further big agressions because they attacked the alliance when they did a surprise attack on the Broken Front at Icecrown. (Here is the quest, linked under the paragraph), even the Horde knew they screwed up really bad. But I could imagine that even if that didn´t happen another event by one of the factions would have trigger the cycle of agrresions that would lead to the tension in prelude to the Cataclysm.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Quest:..._Front_(Horde)

In cataclysm tensions between factions and the Twilight Cult are to blame mainly for the war, in MoP it is pretty clear that Garrosh´s horde wanted to conquer Pandaria and the Alliance just wanted to not let that happen, in WoD nothing big really happened, in legion the northern debacle repeats itself and in BfA in remains to be seem.

If you think that you can held responsible the Alliance or the Horde for a conflict between factions that are most of the times at the verge of war for multiple reasons anyway then you are really short minded because it is not who attacked first or last, or who has more right or claim for the others land, it is not even who has de higher moral ground. The conflict will always be there untill one side decides to find another solution that doesn´t involve starting an all out war wich is very unlikely to happen due to the fact that there are multiple factions within both the Alliance and the Horde that won´t see a benefit on it and on other powers beyond them that want to exploit this eternal war so Azeroth is never united.

If you are more happy saying that the Alliance start all wars and that the Horde only reacts then fine, the lorestandpoint adresses this so you as a horde player can have motives to say so as so does the alliance player to mention otherwise but in reallty pointing fingers in WoW doesn´t lead to anything.

[Ithekro]

Why did Varian declare war in the Undercity? He saw what the Forsaken had been doing down there to make their Plague. And he found that to be unacceptable (remember he sort of grew up in Lorderon during the Second War and the aftermath before Stormwind was rebuilt) If the Horde would not take responsibility for the Forsaken's actions, he would see the Horde ended.

Now, at the time, the Alliance players were more likely to side with Jaina and Thrall than the relatively new and hot headed Varian. But, over time, we came to like Varian as our honorable king. That was not the case until ICC when he let Saurfang take the body of his son home, even after a serious bit of Horde vs Alliance airship warfare within a half hour before that. That was where he started to turn around for the Alliance players. Before that moment, we didn't like our "new" king. Now he has a huge monument in Stormwind after his death at the Broken Shores....and we honor him because he earned our respect from ICC to Legion. Anduin has big armor to fill, but he just might do it.

[Nenie]

Why did Varian declare war in the Undercity? He saw what the Forsaken had been doing down there to make their Plague. And he found that to be unacceptable (remember he sort of grew up in Lorderon during the Second War and the aftermath before Stormwind was rebuilt) If the Horde would not take responsibility for the Forsaken's actions, he would see the Horde ended.

Now, at the time, the Alliance players were more likely to side with Jaina and Thrall than the relatively new and hot headed Varian. But, over time, we came to like Varian as our honorable king. That was not the case until ICC when he let Saurfang take the body of his son home, even after a serious bit of Horde vs Alliance airship warfare within a half hour before that. That was where he started to turn around for the Alliance players. Before that moment, we didn't like our "new" king. Now he has a huge monument in Stormwind after his death at the Broken Shores....and we honor him because he earned our respect from ICC to Legion. Anduin has big armor to fill, but he just might do it.

Speak for yourself, i liked this character before and afterwards. Characters don't have to be "perfect" to be relatable or likeable. Also i think the word evil is way overused and lost all meaning. And nothing is ever portrait as black and white in this story. That's why people can discuss endlessly about it, hehe.

[Faroth]

The weapon he used was incredibly destructive but not exactly outlandishly so — many other weapons would be able to duplicate its destructive capabilities (think all the massive cannons).

The mana-bomb obliterated every Theramore across all realities and if I recall, obliterated souls of those killed. It was far, far more destructive than any of their cannons. Otherwise, the other Horde leaders wouldn't have been so horrified.

Garrosh intentionally gave the Alliance the opportunity to get every Non-Combatant/Civilian out of Theramore — and they did —

A lot of people overlook this.

But I dsiagree that Blizzard just flipped the switch to him being evil. He started off with a very vicious streak and wanted blood and glory in battle. Then he started bending rules without breaking them in killing the Alliance sailors (which his second in command found dishonorable). His punishment of that commander that bombed the druid school is another example of him seeing a separation between soldier & civilian. Theramore was the same, but using more extreme means and flexing his muscles by showing what a powerful weapon the Horde could bring to bear.

But as the war continued and he complete and total victory continued to elude him, he grew more frustrated and that brutality grew further towards "ends justify the means" (the dark shamans, stealing from the Blue Dragonflight are all contributions to this growing mentality) and the lines of going too far got more and more blurred until he was willing to destroy an entire island and its civlization if it meant a weapon to claim total victory.

I feel like people miss, or ignore, a lot of the small steps and signs and dismiss that he was just "oh he's suddenly evil/crazy with no build up."

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Yes, the alliance landed boats and set up camp on the southern shores of Durotar. There is a quest chain to disrupt them by killing the captain and destroying their supplies.

I've completely missed that! My Horde alts never got anywhere... I never seemed to find time or motivation to start back at the baby levels.

[namecraft]

america also starts wars but it's pre-emptive, so they are still the good guys

heh heh heh

[Dziubla]

Funny how each week we have dozens of these threads, ALWAYS from some salty horde fanboys...

Also funny how each time they completely ignore every single argument that would point out how wrong they are, only trying to find some circumstantial evidence at best, that, if twisted correctly, looked at in the right light, and only with eyes half closed, just MIGHT look like they have some "point". They never do.

[Justpassing]

These baits should be banned.

[meowfurion]

Who gives a shit. It's a video game.

[Faroth]

Who gives a shit. It's a video game.

People analyze the stories in books and movies at length. People write books about story analysis in some works. Why should video games not have story discussions?

[meowfurion]

People analyze the stories in books and movies at length. People write books about story analysis in some works. Why should video games not have story discussions?

Why should I not dismiss that discussion as it is meaningless and useless?