Gameplay Should Cater to Skilled Players

[Volitar]

It's bad because the players who get that message are made unhappy, and they tend to stop sending the game company their money.

I know it's hard for you to understand, but the purpose of a commercial game is to make money, not improve the playing skills of its customers.

That is the most baby shit answer I've ever seen. Nobody wants to play a game for 12 seconds and feel like they are skill capped.

[Varitok]

Tell that to Wildstar

[Craaazyyy]

Tell that to Wildstar

maybe wildstar was just a bad game?

[Byleth]

Okay now that I've got the clickbait title out of the way.

I nearly stopped reading right there, clickbait is bad.

But then I read you post, that's bad too. I'm a skilled player, you don't speak for me and I don't agree.

[ComputerNerd]

There is catering to skilled players.
The problem is how high to raise the bar, Because that cannot be done indefinitely.
There has to be a route from start to finish that is achievable by a new player.
Catering to the top level players is going to only cater to a small group that can only ever shrink in size.

If you are above the level of what wow can offer to you, then look elsewhere.

[Craaazyyy]

There is catering to skilled players.
The problem is how high to raise the bar, Because that cannot be done indefinitely.
There has to be a route from start to finish that is achievable by a new player.
Catering to the top level players is going to only cater to a small group that can only ever shrink in size.

If you are above the level of what wow can offer to you, then look elsewhere.

well that bar has been getting lower and lower each expansion after wrath.. until mop it was barely noticeable.. with wod that bar went downhill

[ComputerNerd]

well that bar has been getting lower and lower each expansion after wrath.. until mop it was barely noticeable.. with wod that bar went downhill

Is it, or are you just looking at it from your greater experience.
I would say the latter.
It isn't catering to an ever increasing amount.

[Spazlord]

I’d like to see multiple difficulties squashed. I don’t like LFR existing personally but it seems to fill the void where a player can’t raid for *reasons* and still wants to see the content even if it’s completely gutted. Alts too, I guess. But get rid of normal mode. Make Heroic normal, and leave mythic as a hardcore option. Having both normal and LFR is so cluttered.

Same for dungeons, normal mode dungeons at max level are beyond a joke, you could solo them as a DPS in first tier gear. Make heroics normal, they’re still laughably easy and scrap mythic and just make m+ the challenging dungeon content. Too many damn modes in the game it’s ridiculous.

As for catering to skilled players, I can see how some specs are pretty faceroll now. There’s been a shift towards builder / spender in the last few years and a big shift away from mana as a DPS resource. The loss of utility is a shame but that’s easily fixed. I think some specs could be improved such that they require more micromanagement. Keep your buff up, snapshot your dots, debuff your target for short time and stack CDs into it. Some specs still have this. I still quite enjoy playing my enhance shaman.

Content wise I think skilled players are catered to. At a high level dungeons require significant coordination, burst DPS on priority targets, timing both short term and long term of defensive CDs. Mythic raiding is the same. Mage Tower challenge is the same. If you want to push yourself you can.

I’d just like to see a more streamlined difficulty arc without all the redundancy of ‘medium’ difficulty, not mouthbreather easy but also not hard in any way and everyone overgears it by 30 ilvl the first time they see it.

[Varitok]

maybe wildstar was just a bad game?

No, it was a good game. Had good gameplay and people liked it but all it did was cater to the "2 HARDCORE FOR U" crowd and promptly died because the average casual player wouldn't have the time or skill to progress.

[Craaazyyy]

No, it was a good game. Had good gameplay and people liked it but all it did was cater to the "2 HARDCORE FOR U" crowd and promptly died because the average casual player wouldn't have the time or skill to progress.

i was playing it for like 2 days and quit it because it was just straight up bad and not enjoyable to play

- - - Updated - - -

Is it, or are you just looking at it from your greater experience.
I would say the latter.
It isn't catering to an ever increasing amount.

it is definitely catering to the more casual audience.. with all the pruning and making classes easier to play.. making 50 raiding difficulties so even ppl who are super bad can raid, making dungeons way easier, making gear easier to obtain, making leveling easier and faster, cutting alot of options from class stats and option menus.. and many other things

[Haywire5714]

I nearly stopped reading right there, clickbait is bad.

But then I read you post, that's bad too. I'm a skilled player, you don't speak for me and I don't agree.

What don't you agree with best buddy!

Edit: If anyone wants me to respond to their specific post in this thread I will, but I don't have the energy to tackle all of the questionable (to put it nicely) responses that I've read so far. Not to mention all the posts that deliberately misconstrue my argument (there are lots of those!).

[Byleth]

What don't you agree with best buddy!

I decided to assume that the above comment was made in good faith, so I took the time to re-read your argument.

Look, I see the point you're trying to make, and there are parts of it that I agree with. I do think that Blizzard has over-homogonized WoW, and that has definitely decreased my personal enjoyment level. However, I note that Blizzard has already commented that they have seen this, and the negative effect it's had on uniqueness and "fun" in the game. They have already stated that their intention is to return some of the uniqueness to classes.

What you seem to be asking for is a step too far for me. I don't want to see the return of pruned abilities, and overly complicated talent trees. Rather I'd like the see the inclusion of new, class unique, innovative gameplay mechanics which enrich the world again.

Personally, I think this will happen. Not fast, but it will. I'm a WoW fan and I will play anyway. But I will invest a lot more time if the game was more involved mechanically. I don't think the bar needs to move to achieve this change though.

[endersblade]

To put it into perspective, using just example numbers:

There are 10 skilled players.
There are 10,000 non-skilled players.

Who do you think Blizzard wants paying the bills the most?

[Relapses]

They tried this with Shadow's S2M. But it really turned out to be less about skill and more about your internet connection's ability not to drop packets and your ability to abuse the everliving shit out of your keyboard. They changed it after a single patch and it's still a really shitty talent. The problem with designing the game around the "top x% of players" is that if there's no cap, the "top x%" becomes the defacto measurement by which any spec or class is balanced. This leaves a majority of players in a shitty situation where they either have to "git gud" or play another spec. It's a pretty shitty situation to put players in and I doubt Blizzard will be doing anything like S2M again in the future.

[Deleted]

Your argument is nonsense. Catering to the top players will make the game frustrating for the average player. It sends them the message they suck.

The best strategy is to not only not cater to those top players, but to actively discourage them from sticking around, so they don't spoil the average players' illusion of competence.

Is that such a bad thing? When did something have to become easier for everyone else? If you suck you git gud.

[ls-]

Is that such a bad thing? When did something have to become easier for everyone else? If you suck you git gud.

Well, we're playing WoW after all, the game that turned entire genre into a casual shitfest. And majority of people doesn't want to git gud.

[Tommi]

Is that such a bad thing? When did something have to become easier for everyone else? If you suck you git gud.

Because some people view games as fun time. They just want to piss around and enjoy their time. Those of us who sim shit and look at logs are a tiny minority of gamers these days.

Look at it this way. You make a game. You get $5 per month from people playing it. You could make game difficult and get 10 people per month. Thats $50 per month. Now, imagine if you make it easier, you have 100 people. Thats $500 a month!!

I honestly believe that if the people who sim shit and look at logs quit at same time, it wouldn't make too much of a dent per month to blizz. We are simply a tiny minority, who also happen to be the loudest at bitching.
What would you want as a game dev? Whining bitchy "high end" cunts who give 10% of your income and threaten to quit all the time? Or the quiet 90% majority who just play your game for fun every month and never really complain? I know which I would go for...

[glowpipe]

The players you say the game should cater to is less than 30% of the playerbase. Congratz. you just killed the game. Is something we would say if you where in charge. Thank god you are not in charge of the game.

Casual's = money

[lockybalboa]

So Blizzard should just cater to say 30%(optimistic estimation) of players and ignore the rest? That's silly don't you think.

[Deleted]

Some people will see it as a reason to improve.
Other people will see it as a reason to stop playing and unsubscribe, causing Blizzard to lose money.

The better approach to take would probably be "easy to pick up, difficult to master".

You get initial 10 -20 levels when you can pretty much spam one button and wait for 2 seconds after each mob to progress, and if you ask me it should be up to 10 not 20... after that the game has to require you to move on to using more and more of your kit. Its the only way the game is any fun and its is a GAME and not a toy. Games are about overcoming CHALLENGE in time. Mmos are already at the advantage because you have a ton of time and can progress at your own pace.

If you let everyone spam that one button up to lvl 110 you get a huge drop off of players who simply get bored and then bullshit on forums that wow is just about pressing one button and thats no challenge. Those people never got forced to branch out from frostbolt, and sothey think that thats how you play (because they are lazy dumdums and will not figure things on their own unless prodded to do so and its the task of the game to prod them at an early point).