I don't really get all the hate for SV hunters

[Jujudrood]

People hate on survival because blizz destroyed one of the most enjoyable specs in the game (Surv MoP-WoD) and flipped it on its head.
Survival today plays wonky, yes, and has decent damage thresholds, yes, but it's a sore spot for a lot of people who were forced into boring ass BM or MM because they wanted to play ranged, and let's be honest, tons of mechanics favor ranged anyway, and with the influx of DHs and such, melee is typically crowded as is.
Add in surv having a higher skill threshold due to a lot going on vs BM's "bash buttons lul" and MM's "expose/AS smashing with stagger steps" and it's no wonder why it's the least played this xpac.
The cherry on top was taking elements from surv (ES, LnL, BA), but changing them to trash and giving them to MM where no one really uses them.
You still have 3 specs that play a little differently (BM being instants with pet, MM having cast times (no pet, which is still weird to me to this day), and surv being john fkn madden), but all a lot of hunters wanted was old-ish Survival run and gun and fun.

[Donkeywing]

Well I know how the impact of people's opinion will affect the status of a character over the course of several years in a game that doesn't receive patches ever, largely based upon how people felt within the first year or so play. While that is a bit apples and oranges, some of that is still applicable here.

Quick question though, as I don't claim to know the facts here, but I was under the impression that Survival was actually a lot better prior to Legion on the PTR but they nerfed it before release. Is this true, cause I can see how a class that had some hype built up, then gets nerfed prior to people playing it, and then ends up being clunky is a problem.

I can see where you're going with this but it doesn't matter. You're making it extremely complicated while the truth is just very simple.

[MookieRah]

playing "casual" mages or warr I could not distinguish the big of a difference in Warriors or mages but they didn't screw them over.

It was pretty easy to see a distinction in mages due to them casting different types, ice, fire, and arcane. They were one of the more obvious distinctions.

Warrior was less distinct than mages with arms and fury, but even I knew that fury was all about two weapons, especially when they brought in the monkey grip.

Rogues were more blurry than Warriors to be sure. Assassination and Subtlety were also kinda too similar.

I can see where you're going with this but it doesn't matter. You're making it extremely complicated while the truth is just very simple.

Not really. I'm saying it isn't that complex either. If my impression on Survival pre-Legion being stronger than it was on launch is correct, then that would have a big impact on the overall popularity of the spec. If it was powerful but clunky, people might have adopted. Instead it was a move that annoyed many and was also a let down. The fact that it was clunky, even if it was actually a very viable spec, just made it easier to diss on, until the community just accepted it as crap and it got stuck that way.

The self-fullfilling prophecy aspect of it all means that having a lower player base means less competition, less theorycrafting, and less skilled players in the player base to push the spec forward.

[Donkeywing]

Not really. I'm saying it isn't that complex either. If my impression on Survival pre-Legion being stronger than it was on launch is correct, then that would have a big impact on the overall popularity of the spec. If it was powerful but clunky, people might have adopted. Instead it was a move that annoyed many and was also a let down. The fact that it was clunky, even if it was actually a very viable spec, just made it easier to diss on, until the community just accepted it as crap and it got stuck that way.

The self-fullfilling prophecy aspect of it all means that having a lower player base means less competition, less theorycrafting, and less skilled players in the player base to push the spec forward.

It is very complicated to debate this and if you don't see that and you have absolutely no understanding of what you are claiming. You are either ignorant of the thousand factors that are associated with this or you are trying to seriously piss me off by writing them all up.
In very very short: There's no way a hunter or the community defines a spec as ''stronger'' apart from the potential (of mechanics) in the prepatch, especially when you for example consider artifacts. It is a serious fucking stretch to claim most hunters had an exceptional knowledge of the spec (and the class, since its relative) before the expansion even went live, rather than them coming to the more logical conclusion that they just hated melee.

[hulkgor]

I think Survival is a pretty decent spec and interesting playstyle. Numbers were a bit 'off' considering the other specs, and it probably upset hunters that liked the previous Survival spec, seeing it get replaced\removed.

That being said, if they just gave new survival to hunters as a 4th spec named something different, people would not be as salty about it.

Personally, i loved it, and considered it pretty fun to play. Burst Aoe was insane yet no-brainer, but managing all offensive stuff to line up to a perfect burst window in single target encounters was super interesting. Problem is the shitty dps you dish out if you mismanage any single one of those dps windows, which are very apart from each other to try and recover from.

[MookieRah]

You're making it extremely complicated while the truth is just very simple.

It is very complicated to debate this and if you don't see that and you have absolutely no understanding of what you are claiming.

Yeah. Pick one please.

It is impossible to know, but to say that it is clear cut that you are right cause of your opinion on it is just silly. I'm just simply asserting that if things were a little different, we might have a very different outcome. The initial impressions mattered a lot, and they cascade all the way down.

It is a serious fucking stretch to claim most hunters had an exceptional knowledge of the spec

I never made any claim that they knew the spec exceptionally well, only that those that had tried it early felt that it was powerful in the limited time they had with it, and that by the time it went live it was significantly weaker than what they had played. AND I never said that this was true and wanted someone to actually clarify this because I vaguely remember this being discussed in here about a year ago.

[Donkeywing]

Yeah. Pick one please.

Okay you seriously pissed me off with that one, for requiring me to dumb down to that level. Are you being intentionally thick or what? Did it not once cross your mind that I might mean you're making it extremely complicated by moving the debate into this direction? Maybe you should pick a school that teaches some reading comprehension, so I don't need to feel sorry for a body being occupied by that brain.

On the topic I'm pretty much done debating it. You clearly have no idea how much answering your dumb theory needs. You're rigging a whole lot of bullshit in a few lines without any regard for important factors and expect me to counter it in detail? I would pretty much waste my entire morning doing it. That adopted sentence in that fucked up post has about four-five variables in it, and that's one of your shorter sentences. Don't know what I mean by a variable in a debate? Well welcome to me reading your nonsense. If you're going to nitpick my short answer to that ramble of yours then go waste someone else's time – if ther's still anyone willing to buy into alternative facts.

[MookieRah]

I'm not really trying to get you to crush my theory piece by piece in agonizing detail. I know that it is full of tons of presumptions and even I am not sure if my facts are straight. The only point I want to stress is that it isn't as simple as "Hunters hate melee, end of story". It just isn't. All those variables I talk about don't go away just cause you have a simpler answer to the problem. My point with all this is that Survival came out and flopped, and that it became easy for everyone to hate on it and dismiss it.

[ONCHEhap]

Hate for SW comes from the fact that it actually requires half a brain to play,compared to BM for example,that's too much to handle for most people

[Vintersol]

Triple range specs kept me away from playing mage, hunter, warlock, so it's a welcome for me. And survival is a lot of fun, besides i play my hunter primarily as MM.

[Saphyron]

Because I loved the old survival and don't want to play a shitty MM spec or a fucked up melee spec.

[sunxsera]

The "new" survival hunter is a bastardized BM spec, designed to make whiners you complain about complacent.

We have two ranged specs, a Melee spec was needed to break the montamy.

So ... by your logic ... warlocks / mages need a melee specc, too ?

[eNjoirobbin]

So ... by your logic ... warlocks / mages need a melee specc, too ?

No Cathy Newman, that is not at all what he said.

[Lord Pebbleton]

What kind of backward ass logic is this?

When did you even start playing Hunter? Because I remember quite clearly back in the day the difference between MM and Survival was Chimera Shot or Explosive shot.

Fantastic idea to have all 3 specs almost exactly the same.

He didn't say he wants all specs to be the same. He just said he wants all specs to be ranged. Blizzard is perfectly within their rights to make one of said specs melee, but it obviously doesn't work for a large part of people. They could just try to differentiate between each spec without necessarily changing the ranged formula.

And I tend to agree with Blackmist. I've always considered melee to be at a disadvantage when compared to ranged for a number of reasons. And I would have even tried SV just for the sake of it, but having one of each class means that I've already tried tons of meleeing and, given the choice, I'll stick to ranged to the end.

[Yhcti]

I dont hate survival. I hate mongoose bite. Its such a shitty playstyle. BfA already looks 10x better playstyle wise. Im praying i get into beta so i can try it out as itll definitely be comfortably enjoyable from what ive seen.

[randomnamegenerator16]

I wouldn't hate it if it had been 4th spec. But it isn't and it replaced the best spec hunter ever had with something that almost no one ever asked for (melee hunter).

Old survival had distinct feeling and gameplay, anyone who claims that it was almost exactly the same as MM either lies or doesn't know what he is talking about.

[aikanaro]

Hate for SW comes from the fact that it actually requires half a brain to play,compared to BM for example,that's too much to handle for most people

lol... no... i hate how easy and boring bm is.. and i hate how MM feels like im playing a caster. I dont wanna stand still and look at a cast bar all day.

- - - Updated - - -

I wouldn't hate it if it had been 4th spec. But it isn't and it replaced the best spec hunter ever had with something that almost no one ever asked for (melee hunter).

Old survival had distinct feeling and gameplay, anyone who claims that it was almost exactly the same as MM either lies or doesn't know what he is talking about.

this... so much this...

[vindicatorx]

I dislike it because it's a shit version of a melee class and I dropped my hunter completely due to it. First expansion since BC I didn't main my hunter. If I wanted to melee I would play my rogue or something else.

[Ishan]

I don't like it because of the fact I picked hunter for being a ranged class that had an archer fantasy.
I have also played a lot of SV when it was still ranged.
Never have I once thought: gee I wish there was melee version of hunter.

I have only recently acquired the artifact for SV, even though i've played through legion the entire time. And I must say the spec feels very clunky and not very well thought out at all. Even if it was a decent melee spec without the stuff I hate I wouldn't play it because I don't really like playing melee.

I'm pretty sure most people are mad because of these reasons.

Heck I consider the warlock class to be a very similar class to hunters (2 caster specs and one focused on pets), what do you think would happen if they decided to make affliction or destruction a melee spec all of a sudden. Warlocks would lose their sh!t, just like the hunters did...

[Lumineus]

The hate for sv comes from taking the most popular spec in the game and making it melee

They didn't do that. Beast Mastery is still ranged.

The unpopularity of SV is why they felt like they could change it in the first place. Never mind the reason it was so unpopular is because they gutted it in WoD prepatch and left it broken for almost two years before they decided to delete it...