Burning of Teldressil Broadcast Text (Spoiler!!!)

[Mehrunes]

Well, yes. But they got duped .. how many times by schemes the Twilight Hammer pulled? ... now, they should have learned that by the second time at the latest and never did, so... it's kind of in character for them to be idiots. The only people to not fall for those plots got called traitors and weak constantly.
Plus you still have the mistrust and hatred issue, that clouds jugdement and at least while you're still under fire maybe not enough time to think it through. So at least from an ingame perspective I can accept the emotions boiling in the middle of a fight like on the Broken Shore, where something went obviously wrong and a trap was sprung, but you don't know by whom.

You can see the reason for the Horde's retreat (spaceships) from the Horde position. You see the randomly warp in and start shooting at the Horde immediately after, which explains why the Horde couldn't sound the horn in advance. The cinematic triggers just after they stop shooting. There's no duping here. Hatred? Sure. But the level of hatred to disregard data that was right in their faces would be so high a new Sha of Hatred would have spawned from it.

[Deleted]

@ Qualia (this is an answer to your post 180, page 9, i couldn't quote it, always got an internal error, maybe the post would have been too big)

Hello. Sorry for the late response. Surely, Malfurion could try to destroy Orgrimmar with a massive storm. He is certainly capable of something like that. But this wouldn't go unnoticed. The question is, how much the Horde with their shamans could counter that. Not that they could stop it completely, but it could give them some time to react. Orgrimmar is only one place. As soon as the Horde realizes Malfurions position, nothing would stop them so send strong characters through the portal to engage in melee or assassinate Malfurion, while he is distracted. He was never a very good or tanky melee fighter.
But i think we can agree, that these kind of very powerful characters and Blizzard weird story telling with a lot of wholes and unlogical things make it very hard to discuss these things and to come to a good, meaningful result. For that, we would need a better base to discuss from. What i mean with that are more character feats or even faction feats, a better Lore Book than Chronicles, more like new Core Book, who go more in depth and more into a lot of details in regards to strengths and weaknesses of characters, races, magic and other abilities.

In regards to the Vindicaar, i'm not sure if the speed of the Ship is much of a bonus. The Nightborne can teleport nearly everywhere, as long as they have exact coordinates. That would include the Vindicaar itself, but it certainly will include important Horde bases and positions with BfA, i think. We also should not forget, that Silgryn and other Horde Heroes know the Vindicaar inside out. They were part of the Argus Campaign. They probably know the weaknesses and strengths of the ship. If the Horde can manage to open a portal inside the Vindicaar and sent a Goblin kamikaze / suicid squad through, with the objective to simply blow the whole thing up from the inside with enough explosives, that would be an example how to destroy that ship. And as i said, the Blood Elves in the past were able to storm Tempest Keep too and Velen and the whole Draenei population there, who crash landed on Azeroth in BC, had to flee, because they couldn't resist. So i would argue there are options. The Horde has the advantage of not being a pure villain, who has to be incredibly incompetent, because half the player characters are part of the Horde.

Another weakness of the Vindicaar might be, that the Alliance and Army of the Light overestimate the abilities of the ship. If they become arrogant and send the ship on its own deep into Horde territory, far away from any other alliance support, because they think "We just bombard Thunder Bluff now! What could go wrong! Nothing!" That could be very dangerous because as i said, the Horde can have answers to the Vindicaar.
I think a wise decision to use this ship would be to defend the Exodar and help the Night Elf Refugee's, while trying to come up with a plan together with Shandris and her Sentinel Army from Feralas, to think about a strategy to counter the Horde in Kalimdor. The people who seriously think that ship could win the war on its own and fly everywhere, destroying every Horde base / city without risks and problems are simply far to arrogant and ignore the dangers and abilities the Horde has in its repertoire.

[Deleted]

You can see the reason for the Horde's retreat (spaceships) from the Horde position. You see the randomly warp in and start shooting at the Horde immediately after, which explains why the Horde couldn't sound the horn in advance. The cinematic triggers just after they stop shooting. There's no duping here. Hatred? Sure. But the level of hatred to disregard data that was right in their faces would be so high a new Sha of Hatred would have spawned from it.

From Horde pov, yes, you can see the giant Eredar I think it was warping in the ships, while the Horde is already being slaughtered and utterly surrounded. They stood no chance at all.

And yes, I agree, the Horde could not have sounded the horn any earlier and it even gave a warning to the Alliance too. Varian seems to be thinking for a moment, what it might mean. He looks up, sees the archers retreating and narrows his eyes. I was not under the impression that he thought they were being betrayed right away. And no, he did not see the ships. Genn was the one who jumped to conclusions and after that there was nothing but retreat for the Alliance anymore anyway. That was not the fault of the Horde, what I was trying to say was, that was the Legion's plan all along. Lure them both into a trap and wipe them out. There was nothing that either Horde or Alliance could have done about that. The plan was executed very well by the Legion (for once).

The retreat and Varians sacrifice only enabled the Horde and the Alliance respectively to at least save some few people to bring the word home.

But the thing is, the discussion about it is kind of moot. It was a trap. Noone could have changed it, except maybe Amber Kearnen, if she had managed to escape. But she didn't.

And no, you're right, this time there was no duping, the Legion worked far more subtle than the TH did up to now.
Still I think that after the battle some people could have at least cautioned the accusations running rampant (Alliance side), because everyone should already know that nothing is ever what it seems, when one side 'betrays' the other. Being kind of careful with accepting the obvious answer should be routine by now, but it isn't. And that's what I think is dumb from our leaders.

[Combatbutler]

To this day (and probably forever) I wonder what the discourse would be if the roles had been reversed. If it had been the alliance giving cover and leaving first and the Vol'Jin getting hammered by the reaver. What would the reactions have been on both factions (both characters and players).

All in all I agree horde's retreat makes little difference in the alliance outcome, but it heavily implied that it is, so that hardly matters at this point.

It would be the exact same thing, the playerbase on both sides isn't that different.

[Mehrunes]

From Horde pov, yes, you can see the giant Eredar I think it was warping in the ships, while the Horde is already being slaughtered and utterly surrounded. They stood no chance at all.

I made an error there. I meant Alliance position. I tested it personally while playing on a toaster. Even with lowest drawing distance the spaceships (only 2 out of 3, but still) were visible from Alliance side. Unless the story is that Alliance races suffer from tunnel vision so strong they can't see not only the spaceships, but bright green space lasers of doom, there is nothing to validate the Alliance blaming the Horde even from their perspective and the perspective of the limited information they had.

[Deleted]

@ Shandalay

The problem is that here in a thread, Alliance players try to create the impression, that the Horde did betray the Alliance at the Broken Shore. Although they should know from all the Information we as players have access too, that this wasn't the case. But they still do it again and again, ignoring any explanation and any information who doesn't fit their little dream vision. The reaction of some alliance players are exactly those of blind extreme fanatics, full of hatred, combined with the behaviour of crybabies, who have to tell themselves that they're always the good guys, or else they will experience a total mental meltdown. And this reaction they have in regards to game. Speak about psychological issues. Under these circumstances any discussion is fruit - and meaningless. And there are certainly Horde fanboy's too. I never experienced the hate of certain Horde players for the Alliance as a fictional faction in a game go as far as the hatred of certain Alliance players for Horde, at least in these forums.

The reaction's of the important, leading characters in the game being rascist, extremist, full of blind hate is far less of a problem. To be honest, it isn't a problem at all. Such things are part of a story. It wouldn't be interesting and entertaining, if everyone acted always correctly and fine, while everyone likes eachother. The problem is that certain players act the same way like some ingame characters act, or even far worse, in real life in regards to parts of the game. In this case, the Horde as a faction.

And lorewise, the strategy of the Alliance was simply to storm into the jars of the Legion, to try closing the portal. They severely underestimated the enemy and overestimated themselves. And all that based on false information. So they took their information about the Broken Shore for granted, because they couldn't believe, that demons might have infiltrated their organisations. Which is a huge error. The Alliance didn't even recognise, that everything went far too easy. But of course everything is the wrong doing of the Horde in the mind of certain people, who really think it would be righteous and justified, to commit Genocide on the Horde races. Thats what sane people call crazyness, where i come from.

[Gelannerai]

Well, yes. But they got duped .. how many times by schemes the Twilight Hammer pulled? ... now, they should have learned that by the second time at the latest and never did, so... it's kind of in character for them to be idiots. The only people to not fall for those plots got called traitors and weak constantly.
Plus you still have the mistrust and hatred issue, that clouds jugdement and at least while you're still under fire maybe not enough time to think it through. So at least from an ingame perspective I can accept the emotions boiling in the middle of a fight like on the Broken Shore, where something went obviously wrong and a trap was sprung, but you don't know by whom.

Still, I agree with you, they should learn at some point or Azeroth should (my prefered option) fall to those that keep playing it's denizens like a fiddle again and again.
Or, even better, the player characters get the option to choose not to take part in the AvH thing and instead focus on the actual war.
I say the option, because even I would like to keep a few stupid or simply bone headed characters that don't care about saving a world where the opposing faction still has a place ^^

I mean, the Skyfire was right there. Anyone on the Skyfire could easily see the Horde being routed by the sudden influx of Legion ships and troops. It’s not really being duped, it’s the writers at Blizzard completely glossing over logical plot points because they want the faction war to still be a thing. There are a tremendous number of instances like this that have occurred over the history of the game involving leadership from both factions. I love Blizzard, but they definitely need help in the writing department.

[Deleted]

There is no way the circle stays together after the horde burns down the NE capital.

The blood knights are warring against the alliance in Arathi so there is no way the silver hand stays together.

Jaina is likely to bring the kirin tor back under alliance control since khadgar is bailing.

Odyn is keeping the warriors as slaves so no doubt they will break away.

The only one I can see staying together is ebon hold. Because they have no issues fighting each other. \

But knowing blizzard they will just ignore class halls and pretend it never happened.

- - - Updated - - -



Clearly it is intended. They wrote hellscream to turn the horde bad. Now Windrunning is doing it again. It's very clear blizzard want the horde to be seen as the bad guys and the alliance as good.

And there is no way they will do the exact same thing to windrunner as they did to hellscream. The horde is becoming the bad guys again. And if you don't like it you are playing the wrong faction.

That comic is hardly proof that is where wow is going. They could retcon it at any moment.

Could also see the Council of the Black Harvest sticking together since they were around since MoP already.

[Deleted]

It would be the exact same thing, the playerbase on both sides isn't that different.

You are probably right, for better or worse

btw, I believe that the cinematics are ambigues on purpose and that what happened on broken shore was never properly adressed in game. To achieve exactly what is has, confusion, mistrust and bitterness between the players on both side. To mirror the confusion, mistrust and bitterness they want to portrait between the lore characters in game and in an attempt to show how this would play out in the real world I guess. I agree it's forced, but I genuinly believe that's why blizzard did what they did with the broken shore scenario.

[omeomorfismo]

Sylvanas just needs to groom humans from birth to want undeath, then It’s ok.

cult of the damned did nothing wrong!

[Gelannerai]

I’m by no means a writer, but let me take a stab.

The Alliance and Horde agree to a joint mission to deal with a Legion incursion, not knowing that they have been fed false information about the size/nature of the Legion forces that are invading. As such, the Alliance and Horde don’t bring their full might to bear on what they believe to be a relatively small force, but they do bring in some heavy artillery, such as the Skyfire and a battalion of Alliance tanks. After the battle begins, the trap is sprung and the bulk of the Legion forces warp in. To further make matters worse, the heavy artillery has been sabotaged, making their armored units little more than expensive blockades. The Horde forces are routed, but their only escape path is being blocked by the now immobile Alliance tanks. Thinking quickly, and with the Warchief dying in her arms, Sylvanas has the Horde turn around and destroy the Alliance tanks, inadvertently killing any Alliance soldiers or technicians that were nearby. The Horde escapes, and the Alliance views it as a betrayal on the part of the Horde.

I know it isn’t great, but what are people’s opinions?

[Rosalynda]

I’m by no means a writer, but let me take a stab.

The Alliance and Horde agree to a joint mission to deal with a Legion incursion, not knowing that they have been fed false information about the size/nature of the Legion forces that are invading. As such, the Alliance and Horde don’t bring their full might to bear on what they believe to be a relatively small force, but they do bring in some heavy artillery, such as the Skyfire and a battalion of Alliance tanks. After the battle begins, the trap is sprung and the bulk of the Legion forces warp in. To further make matters worse, the heavy artillery has been sabotaged, making their armored units little more than expensive blockades. The Horde forces are routed, but their only escape path is being blocked by the now immobile Alliance tanks. Thinking quickly, and with the Warchief dying in her arms, Sylvanas has the Horde turn around and destroy the Alliance tanks, inadvertently killing any Alliance soldiers or technicians that were nearby. The Horde escapes, and the Alliance views it as a betrayal on the part of the Horde.

I know it isn’t great, but what are people’s opinions?

Well, it's a better love story than twilight i guess.

[Maleific]

neutral characters, every.single.one.

So they're neutral when it suits your argument, but Thrall leading the neutral Earthen Ring is horde bias?

[bufferunderrun]

Well, this clears up a few matters. At least, we now know that there isn't any misunderstanding, or that the Horde wasn't trying to clean Azeroth off a corrupted tree like some people were theorizing. It's just an act of war, probably the first major one that opened the curtain for BfA. We also know that the battle with the NE, or possibly every battles between factions in BfA is pretty small scaled as hell: Sylvanas prepared merely 200 troops to fight against Malfurion's army. Surely, she might or might not have used some sort of magical bombs, but 200 soldiers is still too few. Lastly, Malfurion either grew too densed or has been nerfed as part of the plot again, as last few time Tyrande got kidnapped, he summoned massive thunderstorms that almost drown both his allies and the demons in Kalimdor. Seeing that he is in the battle, is he not as mad enough now seeing his people's home being burned to ground or why is the Horde still around?

malfurion got nerfed as much as any other superpowerful leader because:

a) the main spot should be for Anduin
b) players could feel underpowered
c) blizzard has chose tyrande as the leader of the nelfs

he is in the same boat of thrall and velen just remember when blizzard made thrall show a bit of its power when he killed garrosh how everyone got butthurt.

[Deleted]

malfurion got nerfed as much as any other superpowerful leader because:

a) the main spot should be for Anduin
b) players could feel underpowered
c) blizzard has chose tyrande as the leader of the nelfs

he is in the same boat of thrall and velen just remember when blizzard made thrall show a bit of its power when he killed garrosh how everyone got butthurt.

People were annoyed / angry about the reaction of Thrall, that he broke the rules of Mak'gora and that he didn't acknowledge his own mistakes he made in the past with Garrosh, which was completely fucked up. People were not angry that Thrall is a powerful shaman in general....

This has nothing to do with being butthurt. It seems you didn't even understand the situation.

[Schattenlied]

We've seen a Val'kyr perform a ritual that was modeled after Death Knight resurrection, which required more power than resurrecting Forsaken-like undead, on Nathanos. It did not die.

Correct, because it used the life of someone who was a blood relative of Nathanos to perform... Normal raising of undead doesn't require a blood sacrifice.

You're once again making Eyir to be the Overmind of the Val'kyr swarm. I'm not really seeing it.

Has nothing to do with overmind. Her magic connects her to them, doesn't mean she can control them... Where magic flows other magic can too.

She was bound in magical chains. You can't really fight back or flee from normal chains either, unless you're Houdini. Are chains a curse now?

Can you explain to me how normal chains would materialize already wrapped around you? No? Ok then, they are different then now, aren't they? You have a chance to fight back with normal ones because the person doing the wrapping has to physically wrap them around you during a time when you are free to fight back or flee, not when they magically appear around you in an instant.

This is explicitly false. Helya was a slave until Loken freed her.

Everything I've seen so far says she did as she was told, reluctantly, until Loken convinced her to betray Odyn. Convinced being the key word, not freed.

And what do other Watchers have to do with anything here?

What do they not? If he couldn't stop the other watchers from doing something he was extremely against (which is what made him leave and make the Valarjar and Valkyr to begin with), why would he be able to do it to her? Helya was a Watcher, just like Thorim, just like Hodir, if Odyn couldn't control them why would he be able to control her?

[Qualia]

Everything I've seen so far says she did as she was told, reluctantly, until Loken convinced her to betray Odyn. Convinced being the key word, not freed.

Chronicle doesn't seem to say so, though: "Loken called out to Helya and played on her simmering anger and feelings of betrayal. He promised he would break the chains of servitude that bounds her to follow Odyn's will. <...> After Loken restored her free will, Helya called on the same powers she has used to secure the Elemental Plane in ages past.".

Are you sure you aren't judging this matter based on the very biased record in-game inside Halls of Valor?

What do they not? If he couldn't stop the other watchers from doing something he was extremely against (which is what made him leave and make the Valarjar and Valkyr to begin with), why would he be able to do it to her? Helya was a Watcher, just like Thorim, just like Hodir, if Odyn couldn't control them why would he be able to control her?

Helya wasn't a Keeper like Odyn, Thorim and co. She was just a female titan-forged - likely Vrykul spellcaster - probably most powerful among them, but a Vrykul nonetheless (Chronicle stated that "Ra first called on the aid of the gifted titan-forged sorceress Helya" while it always address Keepers as Keepers, not to mentioned it also named the Keepers out when they were created as well). In fact, Odyn being able to transform Helya into a Val'kyr was a good sign, as he only discovered on how to turn a Vrykul into a Val'kyr ("The knowledge he gained would allow him to transform some vrykul into spectral beings known as the Val'kyr").

[Tabrotar]

Everything? No. Everything that is indeed justifiable? Yes. I know there is no distinction in your world because Alliance geniuses like you feel the twisted need to straw-man everything that endangers their world view of Alliance being god's gift to Azeroth and all-encompassing HORDE BIAS being the Satan, but in the real world those are two different concepts. And just so happens that a military retreat under those circumstances is indeed justifiable.




Apparently a horn signal doesn't sound as a notice now. Even though it's the main form of communication on medieval-esque battlefields. With it being established in WoW as well. The more you know. Alliance world of alternative facts sure is fascinating. As for the WHY, the space ships that bombarded the Horde and caused them to flee are visible from Alliance side.




Because, even putting aside your actual behavior in your posts, the idea that people liking something you don't are children and putting yourself on a high-ground of adulthood are actually insecurity-ridden kindergarten antics.




Sure mark of mental maturity. Or stability.




What does it change that it's HIM? Hurr durring about how people who like something you don't are children is much more infantile behavior (it's also a severe problem with the concept of words) than liking something you don't.




Irony 2: the ironing.




Also, if the goal was to get the Azerite super-weapon close enough to Teldrassil, it'd make sense to deploy a smaller elite force to get as close as possible while still undetected. So even if you do get eventually detected while still not close enough, the enemy would not have enough time to mobilize and stop you getting in position in time.




I wonder what sort of communication would be most optimal for a battlefield... Particularly two armies separated by its topography... Something that doesn't require physical contact or even proximity, but still could travel across a large distance... Like sound or something...




Is it really their doing? If you got a group of people that convinced themselves their group is only ever reacting to what the other one does since they are flawless saints, because they can't coddle themselves to sleep otherwise or something, to the point they engage in reality bending of highest order and cherry-pick only the data that's most convenient to their convictions, a challenged Rock would be able to string them along.




Yeah, no. The Horde retreated immediately after the spaceships stopped rained hell on them. The spaceships in turn started raining hell on them immediately after they warped in. Since the Horde isn't Velen, they couldn't see the future and predict the sudden arrival of the spaceships. So they couldn't sound the horn earlier. They couldn't wait after sounding the horn either since the spaceships could have recharged their weapons at any moments and finished the Horde off. And since the spaceships are visible from Alliance position and so were their lasers, Alliance had all the information about the Horde retreat given to them on a plate.




Do explain since when does the Horde have precognition powers that would have allowed them to see the spaceships incoming so that they could have sound the horn in advance.

So having Varian saying "No she wouldn´t do something like that" in the video is nothing then? Because if they had fucking horn signals established before why do they looked so betrayed them hm?

Care to explain?

[Toppy]

So having Varian saying "No she wouldn´t do something like that" in the video is nothing then? Because if they had fucking horn signals established before why do they looked so betrayed them hm?

Care to explain?

Bad writing.

Even if he didnt know of the horn signal, which has been established as known by the alliance in the past, he still immediately after sees her retreating.

And of course the Alliance afterwards has to plug up their ears whenever any Horde mentions what happened not to mention they have to sit back and ignore that Vol'Jin clearly died.

Alliance also later learns that that Broken Shore was a trap and that if they hadnt retreated all would have been lost.

[Octavius]

Hitler was competent and strategizing. I don't see where you're trying to get.

Nope. Most of his command was, not him. He lsot the war cause he insisted attacking Russia while waging war with the uk was a great idea, especially when winter is coming. Anyway, I wanna really more info about this burning.