Out of control! Antorus normal be 945 and ahead of the curve Antorus or no invite

[Marrilaife]

@ID811717 https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...000&bracket=20 So I remembered correctly people did 400k dps in Emerald Nightmare. You'd think since then we had several rounds of buffs to artifacts, legendaries started dropping like candies (they were hard to come be in EN) and so forth, people would actually do more than then, but guess not.

Even in heroic Nighthold, where 890 was normal ilvl, you'd see every class is above 400k and some are closer to 600k: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...000&bracket=17 And that's before crucible was even added to the game.

Took Ursoc / Krosus as examples because they were considered single target dps check bosses back then.

The problem with recent logs is you're gonna have some legit people but majority of very low ilvl (880-890 etc.) showing up in Antorus are people being boosted either by friends, guild or paid boosts. Hard to judge the class potential from that. If I go to logs 908 is the bottom ilvl I can even pick. If you see historical data from EN or NH there are thousands of parses in the ilvl bracket, but in TOS it drops off as majority of people were already above that ilvl.

Maybe people are right that 890 is too low of a cutoff point for Antorus LFR, but if I take normal and the lowest bracket (908+) it's hilarious the disparity: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...et=1&boss=2069

How come "average" at 75% is 500-700k but max is 800k-1,4mil? So 2 people in the same gear one does double the dps of another (both being members of the same class and spec)? Seriously I wanna know how. Again picked single target boss to eliminate cases of "aoe cheese".

[Bryntrollian]

The requirements are that high because the average acceptable player is that high or even higher.

[Osmeric]

How come "average" at 75% is 500-700k but max is 800k-1,4mil?

Obviously they haven't simplified the rotations enough.

[ydraw]

Maybe it's a plead to Blizzard to make a "smart" LFR, where you can qualify for Normal difficulty. Maybe something like an an analysis of gear and combat logs. Some form of automation in doing harder content, so you don't have to convince a raid leader that your 930/nocurve-character is good enough.

Proving grounds was actually great for this sort of thing. I still take gold proving grounds over ilvl every day of the week. It's a pity the game doesn't have more achievements like this. If completion of mage tower challenges showed up in the group finder window, I'd take that over ilvl too.

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My advice for joining any groups is to avoid the following:

AOTC
Checking Logs
Raider.io
Big D DPS

If you see any of the above, then don't join the groups. I full cleared normal right away, and all I have left on Heroic is Argus (had a group that was 1% from kill, but then they decided to go to bed...).

From my experience, even in mythic + runs, the people demanding the listed things, are much more likely to be a fail group.

Don't know what M+ runs your joining that don't list Raider.io. Anything over a 12, every single group is checking raider.io. Every group. And if your raider.io score is less than 1500 you can apply to +15s all day long and you will never get invited.

[Dagon]

All I see here is "baddies" trying to make some sort of vote to kick the addons or sites that gives ACTUAL PROOF of HOW bad or good you did on your character, wether it was done 5 months ago or 1 day ago.

If you are a bad player, dont try to join groups that does not want a bad player.
Anyone can make a group - therefor the requirement of the group is set by the leader. Dont like it? dont apply.

item level is beyond retarded right now with how easy a +15 is to complete for a "free" mythic 960 item and how horrendous Titanforging truly is (god help us and bfa to lessen the amount of TFs). So the best way to measure someones skill right now is through raider.io and achievements.

I get that some of these people are asking for 10-20 or even 30+ ilvl of their own when making these groups, its up to you to look into who you are choosing to play with.

This kind of thread happens every content cycle. and it will continue happening and im not sure why I even bother typing this

[Deleted]

Ive witnessed both and for the most part both went fine WHEN people checked their attitude and egos at the door. Everyone else was promptly shown the door when their epeen was bruised and they started up with toxic comments. A player can have ilvl 1000 and do 10m dps sustained for all I care but if he/she is going to be a douchebag to 20+ other people, its not a fun experience for anyone except that little prick.

Again this is an advertising problem. We were in a group "960+ helping a friend". No one was toxic towards that player and he got a lot of gear.

Some weeks before we were in a "960+ farm run" with 2 chars below 4,5 mil HP, no DPS. Players (including me) were toxic towards these two. They didn't match the raid description.

I don't care if there is a person doing low DPS in a learning run or in a run without any requirements mentioned before. I usually don't check DPS past the first 8, because I would have to scroll details for that. What I care for, is that everyone in a group matches the description and requirements. Attending a 2/4/14 pug full curve 960+ pug run and having to argue on high command because only 3 people know what a pod is sucks.

Back in HFC it was very common to fill a group for Archimonde while idling in Warspear. After the group was full suddenly 3-5 low geared players popped in and were boosted. Pug sell runs was a real thing and I don't want this anymore. It has nothing do to with "checking my attitude" or something like this. If you want to boost a friend, announce it beforehand. If you can't fill your group because of that, go buy a boost. Don't try to hide your friends or buyers and complain about toxicity.

[Marrilaife]

Back in HFC it was very common to fill a group for Archimonde while idling in Warspear. After the group was full suddenly 3-5 low geared players popped in and were boosted. Pug sell runs was a real thing and I don't want this anymore. It has nothing do to with "checking my attitude" or something like this. If you want to boost a friend, announce it beforehand. If you can't fill your group because of that, go buy a boost. Don't try to hide your friends or buyers and complain about toxicity.

Still exists, I know a guy on my server who advertised full hc run with loot sharing back in NH / TOS and all he did was him and 2-3 friends of his go charge some guy then fill the group with pugs, ofc pugs weren't paid and ofc the buyer wouldn't get "full loot sharing" as pugs can do whatever they want. Generally, I'd call that a scam. He wasn't charging for "I'm gonna get your low gear alt into pug", he was charging for a full loot sharing boost which he ofc couldn't promise in such circumstances.

And yep, back in HFC there was some drama on the server about a similar scam, a guy would advertise full hc boost but only would have a handful of people to boost, fill the group with pugs, wipe endlessly on gorefiend and when buyers requested a refund he told them to fk off. Over the course of time he'd get enough bad rep to go server transfer and name change, but he lasted until emerald nightmare hopping around guilds.

There are tons of people who go for "cheap boost" not realizing that if the price is cheap you 100% won't hire a full team only a handful of guys who want easy profit and will use pugs to flesh out the raid - quality of pugs not guaranteed.

[Deleted]

All normal Argus groups I've seen this week ask for 960+ and curve. Like wf.

[Alithia]

Not true, I get declined sometimes.

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That is quite lax. I ask your curve from 2017 now and pantheon trinket 985+.

[h4rr0d]

How come "average" at 75% is 500-700k but max is 800k-1,4mil? So 2 people in the same gear one does double the dps of another (both being members of the same class and spec)? Seriously I wanna know how. Again picked single target boss to eliminate cases of "aoe cheese".

The lowest bracket for Antorus is bugged, because it also puts there people who don't have their ilvl recorded correctly (Exhibit A: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...&view=rankings)

The other variance is caused by the fact, that people at that low ilvl are mostly freshly dinged chars getting boosted who:
1) have a bunch of bullshit gear, pursuing higher ilvl instead of optimal stats
2) many don't have enchants/gems (but some do)
3) have bad legendaries, if any, but some got lucky and got their BIS one as first drop
5) don't have too many points in artifact
6) don't necessarily know how to play their class properly

When someone gets lucky with legendary drops, they can easily do 200k more DPS than guys with same ilvl but bad legendarys. Also some peolpe are returning, so they have optimized gear from previous tiers (especially with tier bonuses), which also provides quite substantial DPS boost. Hell, for my mage, having 900 cloak and 930 helmet with socket from t20 is better than nonset 960 gear with optimal stats in both slots... Also don't forget DPS greatly depends on fight length (especially for classes with powerful cooldowns), so someone who is getting boosted is going to have much bigger DPS than someone who killed it in pug that took 2 minutes longer to kill the boss.

edit: All that being said, the requirements are sadly warranted. The average player is just THAT bad and between titanforge lottery, welfare epics showering left and right and legendaries inflating ilvl through the roof, everyone and their mother can have 930 without ever entering anything but LFR. Just the other day, we had a ilvl 940 tank apply to CoS11 who clearly never was in CoS and had no idea how to tank it.

[meroko]

I'm sure a million have said it without even reading this thread but MAKE...YOUR...OWN....GROUP

Seriously. 99% of the time the people that join do not even check your ilvl

[ID811717]

I ask your [...] pantheon trinket 985+.

I found this repulsive. I would avoid joining pugs requiring this, but I had to think a bit before I understood why I feel that way.
-- Because it is a purely time-gated metric.

AotC, mythic raid kills, good performance logs, M+ score, PvP rating - all of these things can be bought, arranged, farmed at a painstakingly slow rate, and so on (meaning none of this can serve as THE metric of player quality). But if you are the hypothetical best player in the world, say, coming back from a break, you will have no problems rapidly acquiring a good track record according to any of these metrics.

In contrast, a requirement that you own a pantheon trinket of ilvl X can hardly serve as a skill metric (it was easy to clear Antorus normal in 100% pug groups in the first hours after it was released), neither having good skills would enable you to catch up with fulfilling such requirement.

[Moshots]

This.

It's not the actual skilled Mythic raiders who are the problem - they're a very insular community and when they do stuff with PUGs they're confident in their ability to carry stragglers. It's the raiders who think they're better than they are - that they'd have cleared Mythic if only they could just have better teammates or if only they'd get the right legendary drop or if only they had more time to commit. These players coat their experience with excuses because they can't accept the fact that they put in the hours but simply aren't good enough to be top tier. They make wild demands from the PUGs they play with because "we just want a smooth, fast run" - the translation of that being that they are looking for players specifically in order to prop themselves up.

It's the people who think they're top tier raiders but actually aren't that are the cancer of the WoW community. Not the truly casual players and not the truly skilled players.

This man gets it....

When I do a run or something its w/e if I get 4-5 people into the group to start filling it and they are 920 930 w/e I don't kick them once i start getting the 960 people later cause who cares we can carry. Then I join a group on my 940 alt that I linked Cutting edge to get into the group and they are asking for 955 ilvl and my 940 warlock alt with no tier is #2 on the dps chart on a ST fight and my eye starts twitching a bit.....

[xStevooo]

Don't know what M+ runs your joining that don't list Raider.io. Anything over a 12, every single group is checking raider.io. Every group. And if your raider.io score is less than 1500 you can apply to +15s all day long and you will never get invited.

Incorrect, I make my own groups - but whenever i join anyone else's i more often than not get auto invited based off ilvl, I don't have mythic IO installed, it's trash and i don't know anyone else using it. I've never had anyone ever mention that addon to me when i'm looking to do a +15 key.

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Good job it only takes hours to get there, I'm 932 with about 13 hours played total.

That is with artifact, class hall and the entire argus campaign complete.

Tons of BG's, ~10 dungeons and a couple of LFR's full clear.

[Marrilaife]

All normal Argus groups I've seen this week ask for 960+ and curve. Like wf.

Pantheon upgrades. I was a in normal run with some friends boosted chars and pugs, we had some people leave at Imonar - took long to replenish the group. Then some people left on Aggramar - again took long, albeit shorter than Imonar. Then we go to Argus, wiped cuz some people had no bloody clue, leader kicked them, listed group and... miracle! People are queuing left and right!

That's the thing, all the pantheon upgrade hunters will prio groups already on Argus, maybe Aggramar, and not bother with full runs. But on the other hand why risk wipes like we had (tanks not releasing to the tree, people dropping soulblight on the raid etc.) when you can get so many other people who actually know what they're doing and just want their weekly trinket.

Same happened in HFC & Archimonde. I successfully pugged on low geared characters normal HFC, but Mannoroth and above it was impossible, if you didn't get a full run that didn't disband at Xul or something, you were out of luck, you weren't getting these last bosses done. The groups were full of people in heroic / mythic gear for normal just to get the ring upgrade, you stood no chance. Same story on Argus.

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Incorrect, I make my own groups - but whenever i join anyone else's i more often than not get auto invited based off ilvl, I don't have mythic IO installed, it's trash and i don't know anyone else using it. I've never had anyone ever mention that addon to me when i'm looking to do a +15 key.

I don't have any score because I only run one +15 per week for the chest and usually close to the end of the week. When I'm making groups I look for people similar to me - I armory them looking at their gear, spec and raid progress. I don't check m+ score because I know people who only do 1 for the weekly will never have it. I used to invite based just off ilvl and then I found such gems like MM hunter with pet (no lone wolf) and that pet had auto taunt on and other wrong talents and did 500k dps in 940+ gear across the dungeon. I've also seen people like a guy who queues as a healer, has tank trinkets and 810 ilvl on healing artifact. Seriously wtf. If you wanna play an offspec at least ensure you have relics and trinkets for it. Total ilvl in queue will never reveal it. People complain about "elitists" but don't care to look at themselves if they're actually adequately prepared for the content they're queuing for.

[HyperJay]

The irony of your post is that exactly on the 1st day when Antorus launched I made a Group where everyone had a pretty low ilvl (far less than 945 at least) and we absolutely stomped (we wiped on some bosses a couple times tho) the entire raid.

Then a few weeks later I join a 940+ Group... raid lead is like ilvl860 and I see 2 Other people from the same realm with a similar ilvl (possibily friends looking for free boosts). The others were indeed 940+... yeah, we couldn't kill Kingaroth.

So yeah, the main reason people make these groups with these high requirements is because they want to get carried. Otherwise they'd directly set the min ilvl in the Group finder, but they can't, because they are low themselves and expect others to Hand them over prizes. That being said though, the community has always been shit like this and the best solution to avoid this is joining a guild.

If the raid leader and multiple important roles are low as fuck then you already lose. If everyone is 960 with Mythic Kills then you can Steam roll Heroic. What you meant was that the TWO reasons people make the lvl req so high is either to be carried or to steamroll if they are already high and dont want to waste time wiping by bringing in multiple low lvls.

I also steamrolled on the first day because my pug for Normal had 940+ which is good. When your pug has a few 940 and a few 910 and a few fresh boosted 780s you are screwed

[Deleted]

If the raid leader and multiple important roles are low as fuck then you already lose. If everyone is 960 with Mythic Kills then you can Steam roll Heroic. What you meant was that the TWO reasons people make the lvl req so high is either to be carried or to steamroll if they are already high and dont want to waste time wiping by bringing in multiple low lvls.

I also steamrolled on the first day because my pug for Normal had 940+ which is good. When your pug has a few 940 and a few 910 and a few fresh boosted 780s you are screwed

Its more like this: If you group with a people with 940+ in the first ID, it means you play with good geared people who are ahead of the curve. These people usually have more XP, all enchants, flask, pots, bis legendary, lots of AP and some understanding of their class.

If you now group with 940 people, you group with people who are far behind the curve, who lack most of the things above. If you are lucky, some of them are alts and show some understanding of what they are doing.

This weekend I helped a friend on his 945 alt in antorus normal. It was slow and people kept failing to all sort of things. It was a 940+ raid, but it was the really casual weekend players and you cant compare it to a 940+ raid in the first ID.

[Deleted]

The last "960+ curved only group" I joined wiped 3 times on heroic Imonar due to melee players putting everyone to sleep and the shitfest on the bridge. Also the leader calling for "lust on pull".

In my experience, groups which asks no or reasonable requirements will perform better than groups lead by slackers who want to get carried by gear. I completed heroic on my alt last night and almost everyone was between 930 and 945. Quite an amount of them didn't have curve either. Only 1 wipe on Coven and a few on Argus.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

All normal Argus groups I've seen this week ask for 960+ and curve. Like wf.

You didn't look very hard. Normal is cross-realm, remember? So we are all seeing the same queues and all of us have seen plenty of normal groups that weren't asking for 960+. Those groups that do are speed runs and more power to 'em. If that's their thing, who cares? They make a group, they set the requirements. You make a group, you get to set requirements. What could be more fair?

[Deleted]

The last "960+ curved only group" I joined wiped 3 times on heroic Imonar due to melee players putting everyone to sleep and the shitfest on the bridge. Also the leader calling for "lust on pull".

In my experience, groups which asks no or reasonable requirements will perform better than groups lead by slackers who want to get carried by gear. I completed heroic on my alt last night and almost everyone was between 930 and 945. Quite an amount of them didn't have curve either. Only 1 wipe on Coven and a few on Argus.

Whats wrong with lust on pull? Since all pots and trinkets are up it is the biggest DPS increase and you don't need it in P3. In the 960+ farm groups we Lust on pull every time expect coven and kin. We even lust on pull on argus and aggramar since you don't need it later on.

And care to link your alt? I want to see logs for that run. Yes, it is possible with that item level, but my experience is really different. People who are still 930 now are the 27th alt or players who are only logging once every two month.